"Zionist Conspiracy Theory" = Black Propaganda

reply to post by mybigunit


I do appreciate your rebuttals which are held in a civil tone and manner.
People like me are more likely to give them a chance and have a look.

All Im asking you to consider is that a mastermind of a grand-conspiracy-scenario would create artificial conspiracy-theories which deflect from whats actually going on.

And then also consider that the "Protocols" are the actual original source of modern "Zionist-Conspiracy-Theory".

And then think about this: If any piece of information incites rage rather than understanding, what is the true net-result, what are the true fruits of that piece of information?

Who really benefits?

[edit on 13-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating


So lets keep this simple: If that were the case, why was the total-free-speech zone called The Internet even allowed to be.

Is there some secret long-term trickery behind that too?

Cmon man.

I was under the impression that the man who designed the first web page made sure that it was free by releasing the code to different media and tech organizations to ensure that it would be available to the world public.

I have a theory that the "protocols" were probably ad-libbed with the Jewish name because the protocols work to accurately describe the attitude and practices of any group bent on world domination. The truth of the matter is that we just do not know. Sure it is "black propaganda." But you know what? The shoe fits. Look at Israels actions, and an old saying comes to my mind. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and squacks like a duck, then, my friend, it is a duck.

As far as I am concerned, any group that still holds to beliefs as misguided and asinine as "a chosen people" or God being a grand real estate agent are bent on world conquest.

[edit on 02/21/09 by daeoeste]

reply to post by kosmicjack


Speak your mind, be bold. I dont mind. I dont have any "blind allegiance" to anyone. What happened in that Freeman-case?

[edit on 13-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by daeoeste

As far as I am concerned, any group that still holds to beliefs as misguided and asinine as "a chosen people" or God being a grand real estate agent are bent on world conquest.

Saying "I am chosen" certainly wont make me friends, thats right. Its a direct attack on other peoples need to be special or important themselves.

And despite it being unwise to emphasize ones being special, all religions, groups, movements do it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

And then also consider that the "Protocols" are the actual original source of modern "Zionist-Conspiracy-Theory".

And then think about this: If any piece of information incites rage rather than understanding, what is the true net-result, what are the true fruits of that piece of information?

Who really benefits?

[edit on 13-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Two things that I would respectfully like to take issue with here.

The first is that people have always been suspicious of Jews because of their intelligence and power in areas of finance, and they seemed to have a continued identity capable of living in all areas of the world with limited assimilation. This will always make xenophobes suspicious.

I have a feeling that when the person read the "protocols" it made sense for him to change some names around, because it fit in an uncanny way. This person may have used the documents because he could not have put it better himself, and it works to instill a sense of danger and urgency that fan the flames and spread awareness and anger more rapidly.

This leads to my retort to the second point. There is a whole host of news that SHOULD make people TREMBLE with righteous anger. "IF YOU ARE NOT PISSED , YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION." Ever heard that quote before? I do not know who coined it, but it's sure as hell true. Some of the fruits enjoyed due to people taking action with a sense of righteous anger are the liberties we have today. And while these may be being eroded, it will take a renewed sense of righteous anger to retain them.

[edit on 02/21/09 by daeoeste]
Edits for sentence structure.

[edit on 02/21/09 by daeoeste]

"Because Zionism is about Jewish national homeland, in Israel. Period."

I wanted to address this popular misconception as far as I see it.

For anyone who believes that the Jewish people should have Israel as a national homeland you are not a zionist sympathizer; although you may think you are.

As far as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" go, I do think there is definitely black propaganda in play. However, I think it's in the complete opposite way Skyfloatting suggests.

More accurately you'd have to call it, black-white-black propaganda or whatever. Here's how - the first part is the bait and switch. Instead of the enemy writing the "black propaganda", they write it against themselves. Then, when the "Protocols or documents" are exposed, the enemy is vilified by your own doing (in this case, future referenceable/semi-resembling zionist-like conspiracy to that of the forgery).

I've never paid any attention to the Protocols because to me this was an obvious attempt at this now classic move.

I don't want to get into much more yet

I do want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with this previous member's statement...

Judaism is religon, zionism is the subversion of that religon, using it to further their own agendas.

To Skyfloatting,

I would agree that banks have more power than the general populace is told, yes. But at the end of the day, in the competitive game called life.

The competitiveness of that game is an illusion.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by StrangeBrew]

Just remember that not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionists.

A lot of people on both sides of the argument tend to forget that.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

Speak your mind, be bold. I dont mind. I dont have any "blind allegiance" to anyone.

With such a highly charged topic I prefer to let people draw their own conclusions based on facts and current events. I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed based on this thread or my opinion.

I find the character assassination that inevitably takes place when this discussion arises, curiously effective. It works to stifle any real discovery, any form of acceptance or compassion and only fuels the paranoid idea of an agenda by both sides.

You and I have engaged in excellent debate on this topic in the past and you know my take on this. You also know that I think more of you than to ever assume you suffer from blind allegiance - you are far more sophisticated and broad-minded than that.

As such, I humbly suggest that you consider more deeply whether it is quite possible that a Zionist Agenda exists, not so much as a coordinated effort by a cabal, but more like a prevailing mind-set stemming from deeply-rooted pain caused by thousands of years of oppression and suffering. The result being an overly-aggressive pursuit of self-actualization, self-promotion and self-defense. Victims often turn into bullies.

As for Freeman, the failed Obama nominee for the National Intelligence Committee, I urge you and all members to read the link provided and draw your own conclusions.

And yes, the Protocols are likely crap. That doesn't therefore mean that a Zionist Agenda is not in play.


[edit on 13/3/2009 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by seagull

What it makes them is a nation of people.

They are the only nation of people, that I'm aware of, that exists based solely on a religion or faith.

Or does the Vatican count?

Just a brief note without intending to sidetrack.

The moderators of AboveTopSecret.com are ALL (with the exception of the founder - Simon Gray) chosen from the general membership. The moderators come from all parts of the world and all walks of life and have varying opinions on nearly every issue imaginable. That's what makes our team such a good one.

If anyone thinks for a moment that a member of our staff would be "stripped of the title" or disciplined for having an opinion, I'd suggest that they think again.

I'm sure there are sites that function that way. We are not one of them.

If your only argument in a thread is "you're a disinfo agent" or "you shouldn't be a mod" please consider that your post is actually wasting space and annoying the people who are interested in the topic.

reply to post by StrangeBrew

They are the only nation of people, that I'm aware of, that exists based solely on a religion or faith.

Or does the Vatican count?

...and your point would be? The country exists, it's real, that's all that really, in the end matters. The Vatican may indeed count, it certainly did during past centuries...

Anyway...

Zionism on it's face is no bad thing. Everyone wants, or needs, to be from somewhere...the Jews were, and are, no different. Nor for that matter are the Palestinians in Gaza and else where. That's the true meaning of Zionism, the yearning for a place to rest ones body.

After what the Jews have suffered over the centuries they've earned the right, in blood, to have a homeland. Before anyone hops on me about the Palestinians, they deserve a homeland, too.

Normally I find the threads started by Skyfloating to be, frankly, a bit weird and a bit of a stretch. However in this case, Skyfloating deserves a huge pat on the back for having the cojones to bring up a touchy subject, and having something to back it up.

On the other hand....many of the viewpoints expressed here illustrate quite clearly why I prefer not to mix with most of this crowd.

This will not end well Skyfloating.....all you've done is thrown down the soapbox.....and now the shouting commences.

Have fun ya'll.....

The first thing you people seem to do is rally againt the power the jews have, 'the jews are so powerful and look how they run the banks, that means there's a secret zionist conspiracy controlling the world...." Do you know why there are so many jews who are bankers? This starts around the 7th century and it continuous on until about the 14th century. The jews migrated to Europe - now they were not allowed to own farms, they couldn't grow anything because they coldn't own land - you cant own land you can't obviously be a farmer. So they tried to be merchants but the Chistian merchants crowded them out and of course when you live in a christian theocracy of course the Christians are going to get favoritism.

So what the jews did is they became money lenders, now in a mercantile society money lenders are a necessity but the church didn't allow money lending for its parishiners, which encompassed the entire population except for the jews. So money lending was basically the only job they could do and they got good at it.

But you know of course debtors hate their creditors so any time there was some social upheaval everyone blamed the jews because everyone owed the jews money. When you owe someone money they make a convenient enemy. So what you have there is the beginning of your bs conspiracy theory that the jews are out to get you. And the beginning of the jews being tied to finance related fields. You have a jewish banker because his farther was a banker and his farther was a banker and his farther was a banker and so on and so on until you get down to the money lenders of the 7th through 14th centruies.

So there's a perfectly logical explanation why the jews are so powerful in the financial sector.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This particular topic inflames so many people’s passions because its history dates back to before books.

Or it inflames and pushes buttons because its based on false information.

I am very passionate about people calling me a disinfo-agent for nothing other than presenting hard facts.

Now you feel free to call me what ever you want.

I`ll call you a Led Zeppelin fan if I may.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Well when one considers the scant historical non-religious, original records and the traditional foundation of the religion that is often evoked to substantiate such claims as being one that still to this day only a small council of Elders know all the details and only pass them to their individual successor orally, I would say so much has been fabricated or omitted as to make not only patently false but comical when the debate reverts back to “well we have a contract with G-d” that it always reverts back to, when serious debate is presented.

As far as presenting ‘Hard’ facts resulting in your exception of being called a disinformation agent by some…the key word is “Hard” as in hard to swallow. Truth is just such a subjective thing based upon a person’s perspective and agendas.

As I said in my original reply Dead Men Tell No Tales, but live men will retell and reword and rewrite them so many times to suit their perspective and agenda that they do become “Hard” to swallow facts.

That someone who is politically or religiously or racially or economically inclined to accept that is “Hardly” surprising, neither though should anyone’s individual reluctance to accept them when they don’t share that same propensity and inclination towards that same religion, race, economic or political goal.

The fact is you like I weren’t there to bear witness to it, and you like I simply believe what we want to believe.

Does it make you wrong? No, but neither does it makes you right. It makes you passionate about what you believe in, which is what makes you exploitable to individuals who want to manipulate you and brand you with a label.

Because I did not personally bear witness to much of history that’s been distorted by the conquerors to legitimize the acquisitions of their spoils I have to suspend judgment. I don’t feel particularly qualified to present anything as fact, nor do I believe any particular author of any book that wasn’t there either to bear witness is any more qualified to render undisputed “Hard” facts, that some people are in fact so quick to adopt because it does validate or promote their political, religious, economic or racial agenda.

That is why these “Hard” facts are so passionately disputed.

If I had to label you it wouldn’t be anti-Arab, or anti-Gentile or pro-Zionist or pro-Israel, rather I would just label you as something far more neutral and general.

That word would be passionate.

Unfortunately passionate does not always come with the prequalifying Com-passionate.

Relationships only succeed when all parties are willing to compromise wisely and with compassion.
So my personal opinion which is pretty much the same as a “Hard” fact is people should be working on compassion and not fabricating, twisting, usurping, distorting or omitting in the way that leads to “Hard” facts and overly passionate, not compassionate displays of attempting to convince others that “Hard” facts are in fact, facts.

The facts will speak for themselves. They often do, which is why passionate people promoting causes and agendas then come up with “Hard” facts.

The fact is people in the Middle East have such a hard time getting along they insist the rest of the world take a side.

It’s a serious lack of compassion.

For each other and everyone else who gets dragged into it, because you can never be pro one side with out being labeled anti something by the other side.

The importance of compassion is something I learned from Led Zeppelin songs, not G-d even though the scriptures of all three of the cults the Hebrew beliefs led to preach compassion.

This is why I feel it is important for the United States Congress to award me Venezuela
To establish a nation for Led Zeppelin fans!

Why? Obviously Led Zeppelin does a better job at teaching compassion than the mystery deity in the mystery scriptures that half the world is fighting over.

Since the three cults can never completely agree and do nothing but fight over it, I say lets not turn to G-d as Jews, Christians, and Muslims all declare we should.

Let’s turn to Led Zeppelin!

Yes you can certainly call me a Led Zeppelin fan as I am, I would be much more pleased and honored despite differences of opinion regarding “Hard” fact if you would be so inclined to call me friend. My compassion for you and everyone wishes you and everyone would be my friend.

Your friend…

ProtoplasmicTraveler

While there is some validity to this claim its surely no coincidence that they are hated the most by other groups who claim to be "chosen/ special". I dont believe any specific group or race is "chosen". And you wont hear such claims from most modern-day Israelis or American-Jews either.

Some jews have the biggest, not sure what to call it, favoritism towards their own religion/race that it is mind boggling for me. I've studied some of the Jewish mysticism and the elitist attitude I haven't seen anywhere else in my religious/spiritual studies. Some think you can only study their salvific knowledge if you were born Jewish, some think the Jewish soul is fundementally different than, better of course, others. The racism goes to a spiritual level which is pretty disturbing I find.

Some view it as a pyramid with the jewish souls on top, and the rest of the world making up the bottom. They say basically that they're better and its designed that way, the other souls need to be happy where God placed them. And no matter what you do, you're "set" with the cards that have been dealt to you. People aren't really aware of this though. Jewish mysticism definitely has an interesting spiritual view on the world, I sort of wonder if zionism is basically a more aggressive realization of their spirituality on the physical earth. There is a connection between jewish mysticism and zionism I would say.


[edit on 13-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by seagull

After what the Jews have suffered over the centuries they've earned the right, in blood, to have a homeland.

Because of what a specific faith based group has endured, they should be granted a country (homeland) for themselves?

If there isn't irrationality in that type of thinking then I don't know what else to say.

I agree with others who have posted thoughts about not wanting to get involved with this thread. I don't want it to be about Israel's right.

I want to respect the OP's points about the conspiracy regarding the protocols. So I reference my thought on the possibility that propaganda was involved:

More accurately you'd have to call it, black-white-black propaganda or whatever. Here's how - the first part is the bait and switch. Instead of the enemy writing the "black propaganda", they write it against themselves. Then, when the "Protocols or documents" are exposed, the enemy is vilified by your own doing (in this case, future referenceable/semi-resembling zionist-like conspiracy to that of the forgery).

Originally posted by radio_for_peace
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

The covenant with Abraham was toward's Abraham's first-born, that is Ishmael. Isaac was Abraham's second child. If legitimacy was a concern, then the illegitimate windsor family wouldn't be british royalty. After all, it's the windsor family that created the balfour decree, giving rise to Israel.

God made multiple covenants with Abraham. They weren't to Abraham's first-born, rather to Abraham and some of his descendants, particularly those whom he would father with Sarah.

Technically, Abraham still had the name Abram when he conceived Ishmael, and God made his first covenant when Ishmael was already 12 years old. Part of that covenant was the change of Abram's and Sarai's names to Abraham and Sarah.

Ishmael is the progenator of the Arab people and was born from an Egyptian slave, so there you go, racism