"Zionist Conspiracy Theory" = Black Propaganda

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you...

and your posts have been....uhm....very long....

Can someone please explain why five "dancing Israelis" were arrested on 9/11 driving a fake moving van packed with "tons of explosives" along with circled maps of the 9/11 attack sites, fake passports and box cutters? Why did the police and FBI agents who arrested them say, "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

After being held for 71 days (in Israeli news reports, their families claimed that they were charged with a conspiracy plot to blow up the George Washington bridge and tortured in an FBI dungeon), they were quietly released and later appeared on Israeli TV to say that they were sent to America to "document the event" (9/11.)

How did they know about this "event" that needed "documenting?" And how do you "document an event" with a van packed full of explosives? I'm sure it's all a coincidence and a big misunderstanding.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


A. The van was owned and operated by Urban Moving Systems. Simple math...moving company owns the vehicle + the vehicle is a van = legitimate moving van.

B. "Tons of explosives" were not found in the van. That has been reported numerous places as erroneous.

C. One of the Israelis had two passports.....two legitimate passports. I know, two passports from different countries, is kinda' suspicious. There were no "fake passports".

D. The maps did not have the specific 9/11 attack locations circled...law enforcement only mentioned that "certain" places had been circled. I don't know why it is unusual that visitors to New York City would have specific places marked on maps.

E. Box cutters in a moving van. Oh my God!!! What's next, pipe wrenches in a plumber's van? Really now.

F. They did not say they had been "sent to America" in order to document the event. In one of the men's words..."The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." I'm not sourcing that, 'cause frankly, if you did your due diligence, you would have found that yourself.

Everything you posted is rhetoric and hyperbole designed specifically to ensnare those people that are incapable of looking beyond the surface of various Internet claims. As it looks like you may have failed to do. Once again, a prime example of how the "Internet laser beam" has focused you on this path.....shame really, given how Internet access also makes it so easy to cross-reference claims and information. Give it a try sometime.





[edit on 17-3-2009 by MrPenny]

[edit on 17-3-2009 by MrPenny]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Thank you...

and your posts have been....uhm....very long....

Your Welcome SkyFloating...

As I said you have been very indulgent and fair...

Honestly I think one of the biggest problems today in the world, well at least here in America...is the political soundbite.

Complex issues that have long range and huge impact effects get boiled down into 4 or 5 line political snippets, that are used often to give people false hope, false fear or in other words simply try to evoke the listener's passions into giving a calculated knee jerk reaction that is designed to disengage to listener from true political awareness.

I don't think when a President comes out and gives a 60 second pep talk that says "As I said I am serious about giving you the change you wanted which is why I am signing this bill into law to restore America's prosperity right away"

Meanwhile no one knows what's in the 10,000 page bill because no one has had time to read it, because no one has even had time yet to publish it and disseminate it.

Two days later people on the left and right will be arguing...it will return our prosperity like the President said...while on the other side two more soundbites that have been released that suits the other parties agenda have been released...and they are being used to say...no I don't think so because of (insert one sentence here) surely you can see how bad this is now.

A couple days later each side has two more sound bites to defend, basically off of the quality of the soundbites deliverance not the context that led to it being boiled down into a soundbite.

Meanwhile the 10,000 page document has been released and virtually no one debating it has read more than a couple paragraphs worth of soundbite summaries.

Yet each party is swearing with absolute passion uncertainty they are correct in their position while still not having the foggiest clue beyond the smallest fraction of what's truly at stake in the debate.

The assumption is everyone is well informed thanks to the soundbite, and frankly most people haven't become well informed out of just sheer laziness but out of a hey, the soundbite tells me what I want to hear and believe.

Meanwhile almost no one cares on either side of the sound bite about the real depth of the issues or if there really is a solution there or if there really isn't.

One side got the power and glory of getting what they wanted.

One side is reeling because they assume they didn't.

No one really knows for sure though, and one look at the world tells you they pretty much not only did not know for sure, but that more often than not they are still unaware of key and critical pieces to the puzzle that produced such results.

Some people will just choose to join in and support what the polls or social pressure leads them to believe is the winning side, because they just don't want to be on the loosing team.

Other people will join in on what appears to be the less popular loosing side simply out of a love of debate or an assumption that a cursory glance at the reality on the ground convinces them the more popular side hasn't yet produced the results they would like to see.

Meanwhile at the end of the day everyone goes home a looser because all they have is a sense as to whether they are winning or loosing a micro argument while they still have no real understanding of a macro problem.

In my humble opinion it's going to take more than soundbite victories to make the world a great and safe place for everyone.

One of the least intelligent people I have ever met shared with me one of the most intelligent things I have ever heard.

"A person convinced against their will, is a person who remains unconvinced"

Sound bites are about winding people up, getting them to argue about fractions, and then shutting people up based on how many people will weigh in with a soundbite that achieves the majority.

Meanwhile most people remain unconvinced and it shows in the results.

Convincing people to go along, doesn't always add up to people getting along, or individuals believing it's worth putting in the effort required to succeed in the effort they are just going along with.

People do in my humble opinion need to talk more and share more and learn to understand the no matter how it's put forth, that an objection is really just a request for more information so that they can be convinced willingly and fully.

That whole process of dialogue, sharing, teaching, learning, considering and formulating and repeating the process until the objections that people have from too little information and a poor understanding of it has become to tedious for most people to be bothered with.

In the vacuum that exists in what the unconvinced don't understand is in fact where the mind imagines a conspiracy is achieving the results of what they see they are objecting too.

The truth more often than not is that there has been a conspiracy to achieve those results, because you truly can do some amazing and complex and shockingly coordinated things in that gulf divided by soundbites that the majority are focused on.

The world becomes a much more productive place and a safer one for everyone when people take the time to really learn and share.

I don't know how much or what if anything, anyone might have learned from my posts, but I do know in the process that I got some great U2U messages from both sides on this issue who wanted to share more with me in the way of specifics in regards to various things I touched on in my posts that they felt it would help me to even understand more about that part.

I really appreciate it when both sides in a debate too that. It only helps to make me more aware of and more understanding and appreciative of others regardless of what side of the soundbite divide they are on.

When you understand enough about each person and each side a lot of the fear and hate goes away for people to want to stop attacking and defending each other and instead work together to employ what makes each side unique to come out with a better outcome for everyone.

It does take time and patience, but it's cheaper than guns, bullets and bombs and leaves no crying widows or orphaned children, or destroyed lives and dreams on either side.

Thanks again SkyFloating for indulging me in that flight of fancy!

We now return you to the entrenched soundbite war now already in progress!



I

Originally posted by MrPenny
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

A. The van was owned and operated by Urban Moving Systems. Simple math...moving company owns the vehicle + the vehicle is a van = legitimate moving van.

Legitimate moving van?

A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System's Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (21).

Suter's departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. (22)

The Jewish weekly The Forward reported that the FBI finally concluded that at least two of the detained Israelis were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. This was confirmed by two former CIA officers, and they noted that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. (23).

Originally posted by MrPenny
B. "Tons of explosives" were not found in the van. That has been reported numerous places as erroneous.

Erroneous?

Can you show me where CBS News, Jerusalem Post or Ireland Online News retracted or corrected any of these stories?

CNN and CBS News:

CBS: "...two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives was discovered around the George Washington Bridge... The FBI says enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge."

Jerusalem Post Internet Edition: (archived)

Car bomb found on George Washington Bridge

American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge connecting New York and New Jersey.

The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge.

Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported.

Ireland TCH News Archives:

Three arrested with van full of explosives

Wednesday, September 12, 2001
4:27:11 AM

Reports from New York are saying three people have been arrested with a van of explosives.

The van was stopped along the New Jersey turn-pike near the George Washington Bridge.

It was not clear why police stopped the van but when they did they found it was laden down with tonnes of explosives.

Originally posted by MrPenny
D. The maps did not have the specific 9/11 attack locations circled...law enforcement only mentioned that "certain" places had been circled. I don't know why it is unusual that visitors to New York City would have specific places marked on maps.

Sure, nothing unusual. Just some NYC tourists. Move along folks, nothing to see here:

Bergen, New Jersey Record:

Five Men Detained as Suspected Conspirators

...Sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.

"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Originally posted by MrPenny
E. Box cutters in a moving van. Oh my God!!! What's next, pipe wrenches in a plumber's van? Really now.

Except they really weren't "movers," were they?

Arutz Sheva News Service, IsraelNationalNews.com (archived) 10-26-01

Five young Israelis are "on the verge of collapse," according to family members, as their incarceration in New York on charges relating to the Bin Laden attacks continues. They were arrested on Sept. 11, only hours after the World Trade Center attack, on charges of "plotting to blow up" a New York bridge. Katie Shmuel of the Galilee town of Yokne'am, says that her son Yaron is in "a very critical psychological situation," given that they are not allowed to have visitors and the difficult conditions in which they are being held. "The Israeli Consul-General in New York was allowed to visit only after asking several times and receiving a special permit," Katie told Arutz-7's Yosef Zalmanson today. "He was allowed to talk to them only in English, and only from behind a glass partition. The Consul told me that the boys are in a bad state and that they are being held under difficult conditions."

Originally posted by MrPenny
Everything you posted is rhetoric and hyperbole designed specifically to ensnare those people that are incapable of looking beyond the surface of various Internet claims. As it looks like you may have failed to do.

Oh, I've looked beyond the surface, all right. I think you're the one who's trying to corner the market on rhetoric, spin and deflection.

Can't say that I disagree with this conclusion:

Bin Laden is not named as the perpetrator of 9/11 by the FBI:

When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page (30), [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11." (31)

"So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming" - Dick Cheney. (32)

To date, the only shred of 'evidence' to be uncovered against bin Laden is a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find "lying around" in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (33)

There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda "terrorist network" to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America.

"I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government ... It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now." - Senator Bob Graham. (34)

"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
-- Motto of the Mossad


[edit on 17-3-2009 by GoldenFleece]

reply to post by GoldenFleece


I've wondered about the Israelis on 9/11 too. Especially why they would operate out in the open like that and let themselves be seen dancing...and let themselves be caught by the police.

You'd think the Mossad is more elusive.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Trying to understand the "other side" is always a good thing

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Star for you sir and nice rebuttal. I hate it when those pesky facts get into the way of things. That being said I didnt want to get into the 9/11 aspect on this thread but I do think it all interconnects to the overall conspiracy we are talking about on the thread. After looking at all the facts Ive come to the conclusion that if Mossad didnt do 9/11 directly they sure as hell knew about it and did not warn our government. They had way to many ties for them not to know it was coming and that is including an Israeli spies cousin on the inside....

reply to post by mybigunit


Just because 9/11 Conspiracy-Theories are valid does not make the other stuff posted here valid.

To practice discernment is to deny ignorance.

Here's some more tidbits of info to add to the "conspiracy"....damn Im gonna be referencing this thread for a long time....

www.prisonplanet.com...

A prominent L.A. Times editorial confuses the political movement of Zionism with semites as a race in an attempt to argue that anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism and should be treated as a hate crime.

The op-ed, written by Judea Pearl, the father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, asks in its headline, Is anti-Zionism Hate? The question is answered by the sub headline, “Yes. It is more dangerous than anti-Semitism, threatening lives and peace in the Middle East.”

Pearl is a professor at UCLA and the president of the Daniel Pearl Foundation, which includes amongst its honorary members Bill Clinton, the Queen of Jordan and writer Eliezer Wiesel, who has attracted controversy for his support of Jewish terrorist group Irgun and his indifference to historical massacres of Palestinians.

Noam Chomsky criticized Wiesel for once stating, “I support Israel—period. I identify with Israel—period. I never attack, never criticize Israel when I am not in Israel.”

The L.A. Times article essentially tries to argue that everyone, particularly academia, should adhere to Wiesel’s mantra and refrain from criticizing the government of Israel and its policies. It does so by deliberately and underhandedly conflating Jews, Israel and ZIonism into one single entity.

oh and this also....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Is the Israel lobby in Washington an all-powerful force? Or is it, perhaps, running scared?

Judging by the outcome of the Charles W. ("Chas") Freeman affair this week, it might seem as if the Israeli lobby is fearsome indeed. Seen more broadly, however, the controversy over Freeman could be the Israel lobby's Waterloo.

Proof of massive deflection taking place on the Israeli and Zionist sympathizers. In my eyes they may be even more than just sympathizers they may even be in the intelligence industry....

So once again Ill say this. It seems some people are coming on here with no facts or links to back up anything they say just a bunch of rhetoric. This is probably purposeful deflection on certain members of the thread.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by mybigunit

 

Just because 9/11 Conspiracy-Theories are valid does not make the other stuff posted here valid.

To practice discernment is to deny ignorance.

Wont disagree at all amigo. But it doesnt invalidate anything also. I posted more info above to add to the "Jew World Order" conspiracy and that is the power of the lobby to point our agenda in certain directions. Once again it could all be just for the survival of Israel and not some grand scheme to take over the world I leave that equation open but ......well we will leave it at that for the time being...

Originally posted by GoldenFleece

some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (21).

Clearly, "Mossad front" or not, the business was moving people's stuff around. The business physically moved paying customer's belongings from this place to that place....making the "Urban Moving Systems" business a legitimate moving business. Was the business a front for an intelligence operation? It might have been, the actions of the owner are certainly suspicious, but the characterization of the van as a "fake moving van" is nothing more than an attempt to make things seem more sinister than they are. It is plainly false.....an obvious attempt to mislead and points to an agenda.

Can you show me where CBS News, Jerusalem Post or Ireland Online News retracted or corrected any of these stories?

How about this...

As with the State Department car-bombing, Rather had to backtrack on this story as well: "Marcia Kramer of WCBS-TV, our CBS-owned and -operated station in New York, reported some time ago that the FBI had in custody two suspects caught with a pickup truck of explosives around the George Washington Bridge; now further checking on that story [reveals] that other law enforcement officials in New York said they knew nothing about it, and now Jim Stewart is saying that FBI headquarters in Washington knows nothing about it. We'll have to put that in a long line of things that's under the 'Well, we're skeptical now.' Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't." There is no record in the Nexis database of Rather telling his audience that it actually wasn't true.

Rather accompanied the backtracking with another self-justification: "I repeat for emphasis, we'd rather be last than be wrong, but in reporting of this kind, we're bound to make some mistakes." But is it really inevitable that anchors will pass on uncorroborated stories to the public—and portray them as fact, not rumor? For days, New Yorkers expressed surprise that the George Washington Bridge story was not true—victims of a needless panic that Dan Rather had helped to spread. Source

Or maybe from the New York City Police Commissioner's own mouth...

QUESTION: Mayor, do you know anything about the report about the possible resources that they found in New Jersey?

GIULIANI: Yes. I think the Police Commissioner was able to get information about that.

BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I just got a confirmation from the Chief of Detectives, he's reach out to the FBI. They have confirmed that someone has been stopped in New Jersey, three men in a van. However, there was no explosives in the van. All right. They're being held for questioning.

QUESTION: Where in New Jersey, do you know?

KERIK: I can't say yet.

QUESTION: OK.

QUESTION: Why were they stopped and why do you think they're connected with this?

GIULIANI: We can't tell at this point. It's between the FBI and the Port Authority. We just got the confirmation by phone after I left the last briefing.

QUESTION: Were they on the George Washington Bridge as they were heading to New Jersey?

GIULIANI: No, they weren't.

QUESTION: Were they in the Meadow Land?

QUESTION: There were rumors that there were explosives, where did those rumors come from or why did that begin to circulate?

KERIK: I can't tell you.
Emphasis Added Source

Sure, nothing unusual. Just some NYC tourists. Move along folks, nothing to see here:

"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted,"

What does "certain places" mean? Hooters? The Empire State Building? From where are you extracting any data that describes what these "certain places" are?

Originally posted by MrPenny
E. Box cutters in a moving van. Oh my God!!! What's next, pipe wrenches in a plumber's van? Really now.

Except they really weren't "movers," were they?

I don't know, they may have been plumbers who borrowed the van. Point is, you don't know either.....you'll just make stuff up to satisfy your yearning for a villain. Can you try even harder to make something of almost nothing?

Oh, by the way.....that was a really poor rebuttal.




[edit on 17-3-2009 by MrPenny]

reply to post by MrPenny


You get a star from me not because you rebutted his statement with good facts and showed beyond a reasonable doubt he is wrong but just for the last sentence lol

[edit on 17-3-2009 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by GoldenFleece

Originally posted by MrPenny

E. Box cutters in a moving van. Oh my God!!! What's next, pipe wrenches in a plumber's van? Really now.

Except they really weren't "movers," were they?

I don't know, they may have been plumbers who borrowed the van. Point is, you don't know either.....you'll just make stuff up to satisfy your yearning for a villain.

You mean like trying to claim that Urban Moving Systems was a legitimate moving company instead of a front for Mossad?

You mean like trying to claim that the five members of Mossad who were arrested on 9/11 and held for over two months in an FBI dungeon for what their own families say were charges of plotting to blow up the George Washington Bridge were really legitimate moving workers or perhaps plumbers who borrowed the van?

You mean like trying to claim that the box cutters and highlighted maps found in their possession were irrelevant even though police were quoted as saying that it looked like they had advance knowledge and that it appeared they were connected to the 9/11 attacks?

You mean like claiming that there were no explosives in the van even though CBS News quoted the FBI as saying there were "enough explosives were found to do great damage to the bridge", other media accounts reported it as "tons of explosives" and the FBI evacuated a hotel near where the Israelis were stopped?

Yeah, I'm the one who's making stuff up.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

I've wondered about the Israelis on 9/11 too. Especially why they would operate out in the open like that and let themselves be seen dancing...and let themselves be caught by the police.

You'd think the Mossad is more elusive.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? They didn't realize they were being watched when they were celebrating, flicking lighters and taking pictures of each other with the burning WTC towers in the background.

Anyway, thank you for not accusing me of being anti-semitic (I'm not) and acknowledging that these incidents really occurred instead of denying, twisting and spinning it into something innocuous as MrPenny is trying to do.

Originally posted by mybigunit
reply to post by MrPenny

 

You get a star from me not because you rebutted his statement with good facts and showed beyond a reasonable doubt he is wrong but just for the last sentence lol

[edit on 17-3-2009 by mybigunit]

I helped you out there.....I highlighted the part you edited in.

That kind of behaviour is bizarre man. I've got zero respect for that kind of nonsense and if I could, I'd request you kindly remove your star from my post.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by MrPenny]

reply to post by GoldenFleece


That's just bad......what a miserable effort to turn something into what it isn't. Go on...keep believing the hype and the shills.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
You mean like trying to claim that Urban Moving Systems was a legitimate moving company instead of a front for Mossad?

That's false and not supported by my comments in this thread. You really shouldn't tell lies.

You mean like trying to claim that the five members of Mossad

Two of those arrested were suspected of being involved with Israeli intelligence....not all five of them.

You mean like trying to claim that the box cutters and highlighted maps found in their possession were irrelevant

I'm not trying to "claim" they were irrelevant. They are irrelevant.

Your attempts to support your position are dishonest and laughable. There are people reading your scribblings and having a great chuckle.....trust me on that.

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
You mean like trying to claim that Urban Moving Systems was a legitimate moving company instead of a front for Mossad?

That's false and not supported by my comments in this thread. You really shouldn't tell lies.

Now who's telling lies?

Originally posted by MrPenny
A. The van was owned and operated by Urban Moving Systems. Simple math...moving company owns the vehicle + the vehicle is a van = legitimate moving van.

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
You mean like trying to claim that the box cutters and highlighted maps found in their possession were irrelevant

I'm not trying to "claim" they were irrelevant. They are irrelevant.

Not according to what arresting police were quoted as saying:

Five men detained as suspected conspirators

By PAULO LIMA
Staff Writer
Bergen (NJ) Record

ABOUT eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts.

...Sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.

"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Your attempts to support your position are dishonest and laughable. There are people reading your scribblings and having a great chuckle.....trust me on that.

I wouldn't trust a single word out of your mouth, as I've repeatedly proved.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Oh for crying out loud.....Okay....you win. Your superior critical thinking skills have exposed me for the poseur I am.....

I'm tired of beating my head on your brickwall anyway.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Fleece read over this thread. Mr Penny has spent the whole thread spouting rhetoric, using strawman arguments, and also doing some major deflection tactics meanwhile not showing any facts on anything to back up his words. Me and others have provided articles, links, and other facts to come to our conclusions and he keeps parroting the same stuff over and over with nothing to back it up. Arguing with him is worthless so I recommend just posting the facts and just letting them ride. There are many more facts on the Israel/911 connection that you still havent posted that also is pretty damning to the cause. If you look at MrPenny's other threads hes posted on he does the same tactics of spout and deflect. Nice post and keep them coming.