A Conspiracy Against ATS?

I dont post here as much as before, but let me add something to this thread:

If you dont like ATS, or think their OWNERS are morons or whatever, Go pay your own web hosting, buy or program your forum software and make a better Conspiracy Site... totally free totally unmoderated and without any censorship (see how long it lasts LOL)

If you have a better site in a few YEARS, well you are a genius and you were right. if not, well those morons in ATS must be right....

Heck people never appreciate free things, and always like to throw stones instead of using stones to BUILD.

reply to post by neformore


Thank you nefermore, it is good to do such a topic more often.

This issue is yet to be fully explored. As it is ATS is an commercial-electronic-social-experiment. So, C.E.S.E the moment.

Many whom migrate here from other social sites are “tuned” by other sets of rules, or lack therein. Some instinctively understand appropriate interaction, Some need read the rules, and still others need have the rules read to them. Yet, the rules are simple and can only be generalized, leaving singular incidents to be managed at the moderator level. Not an easy job. Like wading into a domestic dispute, where emotions, ideologies and agendas are hot, or are being manipulated, there is danger. I have asked for their rational from a mod or two, but always know I must respect the people whose charge it is to keep the worms in the can.

These types of entities, Social Networking Sites, are still discovering the feasible parameters for running such social electronic operations. The experiment will always be running. As the changes in society modulate, ATS and other such endeavors will need to change too. Or become obsolete.

20 years folks! That is the short history of this type of communication exchange entity.

Even biological evolution can “seem” to make mistakes. They are eventually corrected. (I hope our self-destructive creed survive the planet). The world is rich in diversity, and some combination's are inevitably doomed. (sans the Platypus) However with “intelligent” evolution we can make great strides. ATS has that potential as they (we) are finding the things that entropy a system (break it down) and can adjust and compensate. ATS has the numbers and the diversity unmatched in both people and subjects to discover the nature of large system discussions. The larger sample will show more accurate data possibly. (Note to management; Statistics from ATS are saleable numbers studies to marketing, sociological and census research.)

Some of the things I see being a problem at ATS are not the ones that might be on anyone’s radar yet. But we are starting to feel the lumps in the mattress. Even before seeing them.

Anonymity.

We all agree anonymity has to happen here for the fact that the discussions subjects can be uncomfortable or even scary to associate with. Some subjects might border on treasonous thought, but, that is our most treasured freedom. ATS could not exist from within China. It would be filling their prisons. Or free up China!

With anonymity however we do not know the age, gender, race, religious, ideological emotional, chemical or mental state of a person we are on a thread with. In most cases this is true in the regular world, yet with a visual fix you can tell when someone is young, old or not quite right. Any number of issues can come out of this lack of data. We have all seen posts whose OP is likely younger, full of piss and vinegar and has a heartfelt opinion and will not bend to the most rational of responses. But it could also be a 40 year old shut in who lives with mom.

Lots of younger people can be assumed to be here. It is the medium they where born into. I have many friends my age who would not know where to start here. Or with a computer even! The younger people are bright and energetic, but have no world-wise wisdom or experience, but are more than willing to try out their personal power here. Some of the younger folks can have problems easy to see. I commented this morning on such a thread. Thread Comment young people being just a part of the spectrum of diversity here, add issues religious, political or other hot button focused and more people and Viola! A mine field of attitudes and immovable ideological thought.

Also, it is assumed that people in the intelligence community peruse the threads of focus to check for whatever fuels their agenda. But like I have said before it is anonymity or a chip in your forehead from big brother. I have often thought about mechanisms to accommodate some rational visibility in a transparent community.

I would not be surprised if certain think-tanks, study groups or social anthropology studies did not inhabit ATS/BTS with groups of users for field study. What better place? One stop shop for all things considered.

Points

With a points system, there are incentives counter to incentives initially conceived to spur activity. Some posts are merely to get reactions (stars/flags), and some for attention and seeing how far the boundaries go.
Moderator-given points are not displayed on a sig. Just cumulative, so we can’t know the person for their overall quality of activity with respect to AST desired quality. Users who post many threads like “End of the World tomorrow” can really chalk up points and look like great members. There is no public record of “warns” or such to show a serial menace, or trollish activity. (Color Keys?)

My own frustration has been with what I term as Thread Maggots whom in unison (I sometimes believe), can pressure the moderators to kill a thread from the simple pressure of numbers of complaints. I have seen many probable classic counter intelligence missions to seemingly shut down discussions that are far enough in the grey area to easily and efficiently de-rail or have killed. With 4 to six smart operatives or identities, you can shut down most threads if done carefully and intelligently.

Then there is naturally the people whom have issues we can’t even imagine. Bad prescriptions, battered wife, abused children, hormonal, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, hang nail…. But anything goes on a planet with 6.5 billion people. Mods have their hands full.

Moderators need help from us. Maybe training too. Our support is good, but there need be some other mechanisms for theirs or our ability to deal more effectively as a community with the many issues that can happen here. This is just the beginning remember. I have a few house plants older than ATS.

I might propose that there be a place to help each other deal with these issues. Not arguing the issues, but finding ways of dealing with the problems as they arise. A Think-Thread resource for ATS. Not a deep dark well suggestion box, but constructive ideas discussed, blue sky thinking. An example would be.” How to deal fairly with upset posters”, or “How to identify serial abusers fairly” or, how to foster better ways of allowing "your issue here".

Catalyzing the intelligence we know is here already, to create a self organizing, self healing social networking system. I’ll give you a hint. This method will help us survive in the big world too.

Sorry for the book transcript.
I just shot the hell out of my work day. Moan. That will teach me….again? 

ZG


[edit on 2/28/2009 by ZeroGhost]

Originally posted by 2Resistance
I'm not going to lie to the members of ATS I'm not a big rule reader myself but I like this conspiracy theory. After all isn't the best way to take out a fortified organization is from the inside?
But what I'd like to know are the theories on who are these guys?
Government maybe? anyone?

Could be anybody. We have seen this type of activity in the Secrets Society forums esp. when talking about masons or in the other instances Nef mentions in the OP.

Given the topical variety, it seems like its more than one based on the hot topic of the month. As I said ATS format and the quality of our collective membership makes us a natural target when you get down to things.

reply to post by TheRandom1


OK, I removed the quote tags. It makes the page longer but does that work for you? Can we get back to the topic now?

reply to post by AllTiedTogether

There is no conspiracy against ATS, unless they are doing it. I think they are causing all the things themselves.

So what would be the point?

What of the different things on the net I read. In that statement your saying ATS did it all. I don't think ATS owns all these different domain names and makes forums and a bunch of sock puppet accounts conversing with each other about everday life and have some hate ATS for some reason or another.


You know how much time and effort that would take? And how long its been going on? It must have been their plan from day one.

Originally posted by enigmania
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

Censorship is not inherently bad

It's definately not inherently good, that's for sure.

if you don't think it needs to be done go to youtubes posting boards. While I don't agree with everything I know this site woulg degenerate to a cuss feast without rules.

Originally posted by Ian McLean
It would be much more 'satisfying' to get a U2U when an alert has been dealt with, rather than when I just clicked a button that I already know I had pressed.

I agree, I think it would be great to know that the issue has been dealt with than just some "handshake from a pastor", of course I guess this reply qualifies as "offtopic", but hey, the ATS celebrities do it all the time with no consequences.

I tell ya, I think there is no conspiracy against ATS, I think there is a conspiracy against the members here though, I think there is a massive amount of disinfo that gets pushed around here and the mods support it.

-Lahara

Now personally i don't think it's cool to censor .
Now cussing flames ect.. yeah

But if a person think's obama is undercover for the Islamic Russian Melita ..they should be allowed to post the topic.
Give me a few links to click to show me where your getting your conclusion from...let me make up my mind .

But to flat ban or delete topic's because we don't want to deal with it or it offends a mod or admins..presidential candidate is wrong..period.

If it has a shred of merit to it. it should be allowed.
Lets face it at least they are visiting the website posting= revenue for ats.
via ad's ect..and word of mouth.

if Word spread if you speak ill of so and so on or speak against a certain subject passionately...people will not come for fear of getting banned for speaking what they think is the truth.
If that makes sense...lol
Not saying it happens or don't just it would be wrong if it does.

Originally posted by enigmania

Apparently it's easier than closely moderating those forbidden subjects that alledgedly always take a turn for the worse.

They are "forbidden" because the website was not set up to discuss them

The banning of subjects has no direct relation to those rules.

"Banning of subjects" is done for the sake of enforcing the "rules" of civility and decorum.

You guys seem to be completely unable to grasp the concept.

Censorship is not inherently bad

Would you shout about murder, terrorism, conspiracy in that mall.

Probably has the same effect.

Still, those subjects are allowed

Shouting about murder and terrorism in a way that glorifies them is probably not allowed

Shouting about conspiracy in any capacity is probably allowed since the website was created for discussing it.

reply to post by EvilBat


Did you read that I said ATS did them all? Wow! Sorry I hurt your idea of what ATS might be into. Don't read too much into what I say, I mean I mentioned nothing about Obama but I have my opinions about him.

Read my other posts.
Don't just take out of context then spout something off trying to derail the thread.


[edit on 28-2-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by TheRandom1

 

OK, I removed the quote tags. It makes the page longer but does that work for you? Can we get back to the topic now?

That's sad dude, seriously, if it were me quoting something like that, I would be told to use quote tags, but like I told you, you can cut your quote down some, to the parts you highlighted, but nope, instead you mock me by just taking the quotes off.

Seriously, dude, now, can we get back to being on topic? As you can see with my last post I posted on topic.

-Lahara

[quoteWe, the private owners of ATS enforcing those standards is not censorship. If the government forced topical standards on us, THAT would be censorship. Simple.

Are you, the site owners and mods, not the governing body? You do make the rules and you do enforce them, correct? I do understand that this is a private site and you are allowed to do such things, but you must realize that we here on ATS feel that THIS should be the last place to be censored. Its completely obvious when dis-info agents post. Is it a conspiracy? Probably. You though, as the governing body of this site, have the power to curb this. Not the members. We can only watch our own mouths. We put our trust in you, as patriots of this site, to protect OUR best interests, not yours. Remember that without civilians, you will have nothing to rule. Please do not make judgments based on your own interests and tell us that they are in ours. Seems very dishonest to me.

At the same time though, this IS the webs largest site for "alternative topics". I guess if we don't like it we can just go somewhere else, right? Or make our own? Goes to show why the U.S. Gov is allowed to do it. If we, "the awaken", allow this to happen in our virtual homeland, how will we stop it in real life?

This is a bias thread. Its now derailed, and i have added to that. I feel though, that it is far more chilling to think of the conspiracies within this site then the conspiracies against it. Anyone that frequents here realizes that this site is watched by all sorts of organizations. How cant it be? Why dont we do the right thing, and when these outside influences (call it cyber-terrorism) start to make an impact on the site, punish the good members by taking away THEIR rights to post intelligent conversation? Seems like an awfuly "Patriotic Act" of you all.

Originally posted by TheRandom1
I agree, I think it would be great to know that the issue has been dealt with than just some "handshake from a pastor", of course I guess this reply qualifies as "offtopic", but hey, the ATS celebrities do it all the time with no consequences.

Cranky over a warn or what???? I mean you seem pretty cheesed off here. As an ATS celeb myself I get away with nothing.

I tell ya, I think there is no conspiracy against ATS, I think there is a conspiracy against the members here though, I think there is a massive amount of disinfo that gets pushed around here and the mods support it.

SO what are you saying here? Most of us are Disinfo agents are we are fooling each other. Your comment reminds me of a MASH episode where Col. Flagg and an agent from another agency are hunting each other.

I like it. You make some blanket statement that the entire site is disinfo, the staff allow it. Funny yet you keep posting

*knock knock* Col. Flagg is that you?

[edit on 28/2/09 by Operation AJAX]

reply to post by TheRandom1


I agree Random1.

As to removing the quotes, doesn't it make more sense to follow the T&C and have a link to the OP so people can click on it to get the info instead of having the entire post repeated again which is clearly against the T&C.

FM T&C
Quoting an entire post: Size doesn't matter unless the post is already small, less than 3 sentences. You will receive a warning if you quote an entire post that exceeds four or more sentences.

I was nailed for quoting a couple lines extra when the post was directly above...



[edit on 28-2-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

reply to post by Operation AJAX



No its being said that the mods are punishing the WRONG people. By making a blanket rule, and banning topics for all, you are NOT dealing with the real problem, only the superficial. And with that, yes, they are allowing the disinfo to continue.

Originally posted by Operation AJAX
Cranky over a warn or what???? I mean you seem pretty cheesed off here. As an ATS celeb myself I get away with nothing.

Nope, never been warned, nice way to try and discredit me though, didn't know you were a celeb here, I've lurked for over a year and have'nt seen much of you.

SO what are you saying here? Most of us are Disinfo agents are we are fooling each other. Your comment reminds me of a MASH episode where Col. Flagg and an agent from another agency are hunting each other.

I like it. You make some blanket statement that the entire site is disinfo, the staff allow it. Funny yet you keep posting

*knock knock* Col. Flagg is that you?

[edit on 28/2/09 by Operation AJAX]

Oh, hahahahaha, that is not funny, first of all, MASH sucks, second, I never said most of you are Disinfo agents, you're trying to demonize me, and third, I did not make a blanket statement that the entire site is disinfo, you lied there buddy.

-Lahara

The problem I'm having with Nefermore's post is with her account of difficulties ATS has had with Holocaust deniers/political baiting and where we are right now. I really don't see the connection.

There have been major problems on ATS. It's been a terribly bad week. On that there can be no doubt.

And I speak as someone who excluded myself from my own profile last night, so enraged I was with what's been happening.

I honestly don't see there being a deliberate campaign to disrupt ATS by those who feel that Management's recent decision is wrong. Any coordination, limited & such as it is ... on both sides ... and any new friends & foes made ... has simply come about in the same fashion as with any other contentious subject.

Management & staff alike just have to accept that a small but significant part of the membership are just plain p*ssed off. That sense of outrage isn't especially helped by threads such as this in which recent events and Holocaust deniers are mentioned in the same breath. That's a low blow.

Nor is it helped by other members of the "ATS establishment" wading in with their own support, for that gives the impression that Nefermore's opinions are necessarily those of Management, that this is in effect Management's reply to recent events & that this thread is being coordinated behind the scenes.

I'm not saying it is, of course. Nefermore's is a very good post, after all.

But some will see it that way.

What people like me have to appreciate is that this is a private site, it is a privilege for us to be here & that we should respect the rules of the road at all times. Anyone who, with their friends, deliberately sabotages a board for their own ends deserves to be condemned. I do mean that sincerely. For all the heat (and little light) of the past few days you'd be lucky to find any participants in that great big thread who disagrees with that.

But when the rules of the road change suddenly we do have the right to query that decision. That's reasonable.

And I think you'd expect nothing less.

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by EvilBat

 

Did you read that I said ATS did them all? Wow! Sorry I hurt your idea of what ATS might be into. Don't read too much into what I say, I mean I mentioned nothing about Obama but I have my opinions about him.

Read my other posts.
Don't just take out of context then spout something off trying to derail the thread.


[edit on 28-2-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

I'm NOT derailing the thread

I did quote you for the reason of you saying

There is no conspiracy against ATS, unless they are doing it. I think they are causing all the things themselves.

If there is no conspiracy, and they are doing themselves, what would be the point?

A conspiracy against ATS? It's possible. As one who has conspiracy theorist tendencies myself, of course it crossed my mind.

To add a little to the discussion here, I was a mod on another site for a couple of years. They discuss similar topics. Being a mod was a lot of work... a lot of time. A lot of frustration sometimes. And yes, I saw it there too - individuals or groups of people (or individuals registering as several different people) who come in and post all kinds of inflammatory things and then plead that they were new or find the loophole in the rules. As a mod, I was involved with many, many conversations on how to handle a variety of situations... the members had no idea how much time and discussion went in to making decisions on threads, posts or membership. I can only imagine the length of the behind the scenes discussions here.

Bottom line: members don't pay to be here. It's not a democracy. It's a website that is privately owned and managed by people who most likely devote an enormous amount of time and resources to it. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a big internet - people can start their own sites and make their own rules. And I don't mean that in a dismissive way, I really mean it - it can be done fairly easily, and I am sure if it is done well, it would be very satisfying!

If I want to post about things that aren't in line with ATS, then I go to other sites and post there.

Peace.

I can't imagine an airline having a seat to fit everyone's bottom, but those whom complain that it the seat is not to their liking I would assume after getting it off their chest would take a seat anyway, or take the train.

I don't think it is easy to make a business out of peoples conversations in a stress injected, self-focused, fear ridden society. Lots of good stuff too, but you need only a little pepper on your ice cream to kill the joy.

In complex systems there are many things that can look conspiratorial, yet are simply artifacts of the diversity of combined qualities randomly expressed.

Mods have to accommodate such. They are not saints, nor likely wish to be seen as such, but be objective and ask how you would deal with your issue if you where them.

Objectivity is a beautiful thing.

ZG