A Conspiracy Against ATS?

reply to post by bluestreak53


I'm sorry I would be sitting here squirming if I didnt comment on:

Good going. I hope you understand how much this is parallel to the political repression of speech in China and similar places.

By similar places I presume you to maybe mean areas where machete gangs hunt you down? I mean in china it's only prison.
Seriously... You draw parallels to an internet forum with taboo topics to countries where people get their very lives taken away in various methods? You do this with a straight face?

Yeah, way to go with the trivializing the suffering others go through with something like this.

reply to post by bluestreak53


How about your opinion on the fact that a committee has been formed to figure out a way to allow the discussion to continue?
That the goal is to do this in a mature manner?

Should we not do this?

I read the entire opening post and tried to read the entire thread but it just kept going round and round in circles. Seems to me most were "feeding the troll(s)" if the mods want to call them that. A few particular posters were constantly being quoted over and over and the last I could tell weren't convinced.

Regardless of how I feel about the issue of censorship which seemed to take over the thread, I think the mods have a tough job here and I wouldn't want to have to do it. I can only imagine the amount of time I would be in the "rant" thread in the staff area. If they don't have one they should.

I don't think I have been around enough to see the roving gangs of desenters and most of my time on the ATS part of the site is reading not posting. If I did start to post I may not have sanity left at the end of the day. As interesting as it all is I find times I am not knowledgable (sp) enough on a topic to post an opinion so read through and "enjoy".

Good luck to all and thanks for hours of entertainment.

Nef,I think what has been happening here is simply ATS being the best conspiracy site out there your gonna have clowns who show up to troll because they have nothing better to do.

reply to post by mike dangerously


Possibly some motivation from the recent (2/25) article at SomethingAwful:

www.somethingawful.com...

Timezones. Got to love them. I went to bed on page 5. Its page 15 now

Actually, thats disturbing, because I just measured my life by ATS pages.....

But I digress. Thank you guys so much for your thoughts so far. I'm interested to hear more.

Alright, I rarely ever post on ATS... I'm usually a tad shy. I hope that doesn't automatically label me a "sleeper" agent or something of the like. However, I suppose its inevitable. *sigh*

To the OP:
It was probably not the greatest of ideas to create this thread so soon. I realize you didn't want a "witch hunt", but when you write things like this, especially from a seat of power, no doubt that's what will happen. It really looks like: "Don't question us or you're an enemy agent!" This is a tactic used by cults, secret societies, religions, etc, etc. (I'm sure you know that.)

It's just one of the many reasons why your users now feel betrayed. There is a standard that a lot of ATS members hold this website and its moderators to. Unfortunately, this thread (and the ban) have conflicted with those idealistic standards. Thus, paranoia and rebellion. It's like dealing with your parents, really.

To those for "free speech":
The truth of the matter is that the topic of drug use was indeed already against the rules. When you agreed to the rules, you agreed not to break the rules. ATS, as much of a paradise as its touted to be, is still a private website owned by private citizens with their own goals and agenda. (Meaning: They don't want ATS to go down the toilet. :O Whoda thunk that?!!)

I know that one side of me wants SO to announce, "If they want to label us as a drug site, then so be it! Ooo-rah!" Or something lame like that. But the other side of me says, "Who are we to keep this site to ourselves? There's enough "truth" and mind opening topics for everyone."

"But they're supposed to be about denying ignorance!" You say. This is true but not to the extent that some of you seem to assume. They're not allowing anyone to talk about the psychological reasons or "possible benefits" behind bestiality, are they? How about incest? Child porn? Nope. Nope. And nope.

There are many topics which we're not allowed to discuss here and its not censorship. "Deny Ignorance" has no guarantees tacked onto it. It doesn't mean, "We want you to know how to light up" or "We want you to know how to pick a lock". It means, "We inspire you to think outside the box." You can say its a small box, but the bottom line is: It's not your website.

No, I don't think they've given us the whole truth. No, I don't like it either. I really do think this could have been handled better by everyone, but in the end, who am I to demand anything of the amigos? There are no guarantees on the internet. There's no Santa Clause either.

Back on topic--- I don't think we're being infiltrated by organized groups of professional disinformation agents or anything. I believe people have a lot of time on their hands, and when one troll comes about, many will follow. Although, I suppose it is possible. ATS is a large website and influences a large population of Americans. It could be rival sites, special interest groups or just really bored teenagers. hmmm...

As a former mod to a now dead forum, I myself witnessed a lot of "troll bombs". In many cases, these were secondary accounts of active users. It was always baffling to me how they could be so nice on their main accounts, then turn into such... well, trolls. I'm not implying anything here, just stating a fact.

On other forums I frequent nowadays, there are periods of increased troll activity. Perhaps its like a cycle? Like a sort of troll "time of the month"?

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

You're simply refusing to be reasonable in the face of logic and common sense, aren't you?

No, I'm refusing to fall in line because you say so. What's reasonable to you is not reasonable to me.

Common sense tells me that what you guys are doing is censorship, by definition, no matter the reason.

If you would truly value logic and common sense you'd admit it, for it is, what it is.

Just because you say (or type) something that is false, does not increase the chances it'll no longer be false.

Take your own medicine then.

Again, see my commentary on false statements. Repeating a false statement doesn't make it less false.

Censorship:

1. suppression of published or broadcast material: the suppression of all or part of a play, movie, letter, or publication considered offensive or a threat to security 2. suppression of something objectionable: the suppression or attempted suppression of something regarded as objectionable".

Please tell me, is this not what you are doing? Literally.

Doesn't matter that everybody agreed with it.

Just keep denying it.

We're advocating murder, terrorism and conspiracy? Really. My analogy was comparing the advocacy of personal use of narcotics. Perhaps you should read it again? Or, do you wish to keep ignoring common sense and continue to publicly piss on our living room carpet?

Like I said, your analogy sucks.

Talking about drugs does not equal advocating. For all we know, we could've saved a lot of people form drug abuse, if we were allowed to speak about it.

And what's with all the house pissing analogies.

Questioning certain aspects of the rules is being put on the same level as pissing in someone's house.

Pathetic.

How about letting your guests speak?

The members made this site great, the members made it possible for you to get sponsors that put annoying Duck Hunt games on top of the page.

And now when there is criticism, founded criticism, you act all mighty like I should be happy that I can post here.

You should be happy people post here, you're making money of it.

The hypochracy of it.



I'll take it to the debate thread, where I will prove my point, once and for all.

It will take me no more than 10 lines.

Goodday Sir.



[edit on 1/3/09 by enigmania]

If people want to keep this site open, then they need to follow the T&C, its simple, the rules will be changing soon. I see the words home-grown terrorism and it just makes me think how easy it would be for us to be labled terrorists, we have extremem views, does that make us extremists?!

If we start openly discussing drugs, trips, prices, conspiracies relating to these or starting groups to protest, we could then be seen as a very real problem, the view of the public would be on their side immediately.

At the moment, we are kooks, we are loons but we are harmless, the only damage we do is when we get people to question the official line and at the moment, thats happening to few to be a real problem.

If we make it easier for us to be painted as this extremist sect of the internet, then they will, no doubt in my mind. So were as I agree with freedom of speech and my right to talk about what I want, I also agree with ATS's right to tell me to shut it if they think I can get them in trouble, I like this site and I don't want it to get shut down.

IMO, this directly links in to what Neforemore was saying, some may be just disgruntled ex-members, maybe members of other websites but some maybe setting us up for the fall.

By no means truth, just an idea, hope this hasn't been said, only read first 3 pages.

EMM

I started in chat when chat still showed IP’s.
Then forums came along.
Until ATS I found chat and forum so similar, well, I wouldn't have stayed in ATS if it didn’t have higher standards than any around.
But all high standards aside the forum still falls victim to chat mentality.
Who’s top dog.
Who’s in who’s cliques.
Who gets the last word.
Who can’t deal with being told *NO!* and not getting in the last word and those who buck authority.
Like High School (in some cases grade school) revisited.
While I’m not discrediting the possibility of an organized group *out there* relishing the downfall of ATS, it seems to me it’s just the *chat mentality* and the *last word* mentality.
Fight for the sake of fighting where too many it seems cut of their nose to spite their face and loose their accounts after loosing all credibility.
So, there’s 2 pennies a mine.

One thing to bring up while I’m here though, recently I posted a thread that got removed to the trash bin.
Normally I would have been livid.
I took the thread from Fox news - you know, good even for MSM good enough for ATS. (Ouch!)
I asked the MOD who removed my thread to give me an explanation.
I was told the thread was *tabloid at best*.
Then I looked around at some of the pure trash on the front page of ATS and though - yeah right.
But I let it go.
Not saying I’m *bigger than that* but at some point it just isn’t worth fighting with someone who’s a power freak and doesn’t share my opinion at what’s tabloid and what isn’t.
So, I let it go.
If it happens again I’ll have to make up my mind if ATS is a place I want to continue posting/visiting.
The censorship is getting out of hand, but, is there a reasonable alternative?
Thanks to the nubs out there, no.

peace

reply to post by enigmania


I think you`re doing good in standing up against the status quo, standing up against authority, standing up against suppression of information.

Its good and expected that ATS has members like you, who wont shut up and who will question everything.

The people you are fighting against here are not that different from you. They too wish to stand up against the hive mind.

So that you can better appreciate where the administrators of this website are coming from: With the discussion of topics labeled "illegal" in our society, the owners of this website are faced with a difficult choice.

If you were the owner of this website, you`d also be faced with that choice:

Allow the discussion of illegal activities and see your website disappear from google indexes, loose all its family-minded membership and revenue...which would lead to a lot other of ATS-Topics never being seen by more than a handful of under-under-underground people.
Or to say: "Folks, if you want to discuss illegal activities, go over to the erowid website for example. Thanks".

So they are basically sacrificing one topic to save 100+ other topics.

The more essential question your discussion touches upon is how many of those "illegal" activities should really be illegal and how many of them are indeed part of a plot to strip humanity of their freedom.

If having an alternative-theory of 9/11 becomes illegal as in "a terrorist activity" - what then?

So I and most others here do understand the concern. A site-admin elsewhere already said that "if it becomes outlawed to talk conspiracy-theory, we`ll have to move our servers to another country".

So the ban of drug-related topics here is not a succumbing to the government but grown from a desire to reach a broader public than ATS-Topics normally have. All its saying is: "OK, there are thousands of sites already permitting these topics. If anyone wants to discuss them, they can go there".

My private opinion is that the outlawing of what I do or do not intake is completely ineffective and that the war on those substances is a scam. And nevertheless I am 100% for the policy laid out by the site-owners. I understand the reasoning. I understand that there are 1000s of other websites I can discuss this scam at. And I believe that its better to focus on all the other relevant stuff this site has to offer than let it get dragged down by the 1-2% of stuff that is (as of yet) a crime in most countries.

If we allow the discussion of one illegal activity, soon people will be wanting to discuss other illegal activities. We once had a member trying to reason with us that anti-pedophilia laws are in place to "suppress our freedoms" and that banning them from the site is "censorship".

Pedophilia is harmful to minors. Offering advice on how to acquire crack, heroin, coc aine is harmful to minors (and to adults imo). Once ATS starts permitting threads like that Im outta here. So so are many others.



[edit on 1-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


You guys don't really get my point.

I'm all for rules, especially rules that enforce common descency, against racism and insults.

I don't like that entire subjects are banned, but I can live with that.

Just don't say it's not censorship. It's hypocritical.

That was all I ever wanted to get across, it got so out of hand because I got mobbed by mods, refusing to admit the obvious.

Well peace out.

reply to post by enigmania


I am getting your point. You`re not getting mobbed by me. To some extent Im agreeing with you. But only to some extent. I wish you`d also appreciate why the subject is being banned.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by intrepid



Accounts which have been dormant for years, were suddenly alive.

I guess the skeptic in my says well maybe there hasn't been anything worth posting so they've just been reading and keeping up with ATS until these topics pushed them back into posting. I've taken time off myself.

BUT, if you consider those "sleeper accounts" AND a number of other odd coincidences such as posters who keep posting and posting the same PROPAGANDA over and over while minimizing interaction with anyone with what seems like the sole purpose of drowning out dissention.
AND
A third VERY ODD occurrence. In a number of cases, I've noticed first a single PROPAGANDA expert shows up on a thread and posts and posts the same spiel then a 2nd appears and supports the first BUT uses the same writing style.
Now I'm not talking about 2 people with the same beliefs parroting each other or a cut and paste job, I'm talking about 2 unique members with the SAME WRITING STYLE. The implication is of course that those 2 members are one in the same.

What's more confusing, is that this seems to happen fairly often and on both sides of an argument at times. This makes me wonder, just wonder mind you, if there isn't a group of people, who want to see ATS in CHAOS. Again, I've seen this happen on both sides of an argument in various threads so the agenda can't be to support just one side-assuming what I'm saying is correct that is
In any case, I don't know if this is just a group of:
-ex members
-people on a competing site or people who want to start a competing site.
-or something a bit bigger. I hate using the G word (gub-ment) because to me this is the least plausible as I find that our government is mostly filled with incompetent sycophants incapable of looking at any big picture that isn't their self portrait

I'd really like to thank the OP/MOD for creating this thread as I personally thinks one of the best one's I've ever participated in and one of the most credible. I'm a serious skeptic so to convince me of a conspiracy, takes quite a lot and the unique thing that the OP did here was to point out the things I've already seen for myself and helped me put them together. The OP didn't tell me what I should know or see, just showed me the links.

I would like to know more about the RNC and DNC IP's and how they flooded ATS during the election so if it's possible to post statistics without violating any T & C's, the info would be appreciated.

I think all the members should take this thread and possible threat seriously if you truly enjoy ATS and want to help protect it as a beacon of light in the dark.

reply to post by Skyfloating

You`re not getting mobbed by me.

Not currently, no.

You tried to bring me down yesterday, though.

I understand the ATS logic behind subject bans, it's just not my logic.

Like I said before, the free speech about drugs could have provided valuable information against drug abuse for all we know.

It doesn't have to get bad by definition.

reply to post by enigmania


I've been watching this thread for some 12 pages now and notice that it is moving very rapidly. For the second time I will post on this topic though I feel that it has also been heavily trodden by others. I may not be adding much here.

How about letting your guests speak?

My guests can speak of what they want in my house..untill I get fed up with them and tell them to leave. It is called "my house" and for which I take RISKS to keep and maintain. I do not cede the welfare of my house to others who are not bearing the same RISKS as myself to keep and maintain it. These others need to keep in mind that I am not that tolerant of what they consider excellence and the ability to play through unchallanged and thereby drag my house through the gutters for thier motives and desires while calling it liberty and freedom.

The members made this site great, the members made it possible for you to get sponsors that put annoying Duck Hunt games on top of the page.

This is true about the members. However...your second part here is not worthy of your debating skills, intellect, reason, and shows great immaturity, insecurity, and self interest..not the interest of the RISKS involved in maintaining and keeping a site running.

And now when there is criticism, founded criticism, you act all mighty like I should be happy that I can post here.

I dont think you realize that you have provided the solution to your dilemma here while you are so heavily involved in self promotion of your cause.
This statement like the previous one quoted hints at a type of insecurity and self interest..not a point well made.

Drama and emotions does not necessarily make for a point well made.

The emphasis here, to my knowledge, is that this is a private site..with terms and conditions...determined by the Owners and the mods working in concerns for the Owners conditions and terms...not for non owners. To my limited knowledge the Owners and Mods do their best in keeping an eye on different topic lines and tend towards opening up rooms for topics they consider worthy. Apparently drugs and drug use are not a topic in which they choose to get involved or of which they approve/consider worthy by opening up the topic line and subjecting themselves to all the baggage which tends to come with it. This is after all..a private site which the public agrees to terms and conditions prior to usage.

In other words...this drama taking place here on this topic line is not in keeping with the freedom and liberty of the "private owners" to deteremine the direction they desire for their private site.

You should probably consider becoming a moderator if you are so adamant/passionate about your position. This seems to be the direction in which you are tending or alluding.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

[edit on 1-3-2009 by orangetom1999]