A Conspiracy Against ATS?

reply to post by Ahabstar



Constitutional law does not apply anywhere except in a court with a relevant status of jurisdiction


[edit on 28-2-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Is discussing drugs on public forumns legal in the united states? I am quite certain that in many countries it is not! Perhaps ats does not wish to allow such discussion for fear of lawsuits. In that case I don't blame them!

And whats the big deal if you can't discuss this topic? Not all topics are
suitable for public discourse and for good reason I might add....common sense!

Discussion of legal drugs like ecstacy and salvia divinorum is legal, but afaik this website isn't set up to discuss drug use

reply to post by Cuhail

Then your argument does not belong in this thread. Thanks for bringing it so off topic that it's no longer about what Nef was elluding to, but, about your own problems with the site's rules.

You guys have yourselves to thank, You guys attack me for stating the obvious.

You are defending the denial of that obvious situation.

That's what I mean by cleaning up your own act, before blaming others.

I read you post then finally read the t&c. first I just found this site and love it and I'm not trying to kiss no ones butt. To be completly honest though after reading your post all it seems to be is a atta boy ats atta boy mods. and to make it a real post throw a conspiracy in there. Jmo

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

To everybody, mainly those wishing to prevent disruptive, destructive and abusive acts

So talking about pot equates to such behavior?

reply to post by enigmania


Ok, it's up, ATS censors entire subjects. You've been given "fighter" status so you can post in that forum. Normally posts have to be up within 24 hours but I wouldn't mind waiting for 48. Read a few debates(just a recommendation). Check out the debate rules in the OP. You're passionate about this topic and want you to do this right.



[edit on 28-2-2009 by intrepid]

reply to post by Zepherian


I must agree with Zeph. It is obvious that ATS has allowed and still allows some that continue to troll the threads that only derail and the like. They leave these guys going and they are part of ATS. If they were not, they would have been removed like it says in the T&C. Just like the problem they have with the drug talk. All it would take is to warn these people like the T&C says and then deal with them the second time in a more serious manner. They just don't follow the T&C and then do something that prevents the truth from coming out.

If they are so concerned about content why is it they can't even control the ads that are popping up on some people's screens? We have adult site ads popping up on certain users of ATS, from 'Hot Pink Lover' who is 21yrs old and looking for 'Older men for love and romance'.

Check out the other things that have made it by the ATS staff, who are concerned about your viewing habits. Then when you do mention it to them it may take about two or three days to take the offending ad down. They have to track it down and also have someone with access to the ads remove it. And this is for something that is blatantly against the T&C and they are the originators of it. Now if you or I was the originator and we didn't comply immediately with the ruling, we would probably be banned.

Double standards and very blatant also....

Is there a conspiracy against ATS? Only the ones they create themselves...


IMHO

reply to post by jfj123

I know you're answering a lot of posts so maybe you missed mine. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind answering it?

Oh I saw your posts, just didn't want to dignify them with a response, since I'm not participating in your hypthetical setups.

Originally posted by enigmania
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

To everybody, mainly those wishing to prevent disruptive, destructive and abusive acts

So talking about pot equates to such behavior?

1. Discussing marijuana use can open up ATS to legal action

2. Discussion of marijuana use on this website has historically led to abuse and disruption

3. This website is not set up to enable the discussion of marijuana use

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by enigmania

 

A website gets to choose which topics it will feature and which it will not feature. And if it defines itself as "a website that is safe for the underaged to visit" and "a website that does not discuss illegal activities" it has the right to do so.

What a load a crap.

We talk about terrorism. Terrorism is illegal.

We talk about murder. Murder is illegal.

We talk about rape. Rape is illegal.

We talk about breaking into Area 51. That would be illegal.

We have people who claimed they work for the government coming here to give us their secrets. These people are coming here for the express purpose to breaking the law.

Whatever....

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


Exactly my point. But there were some calls to what the laws on free speech were and who can not eliminate free speech. I am firmly against the ban now in place because it is too broad in scope. But if forced to argue for keeping it in place, I could do so just on the T&C as I spelled out. But could also do so reluctantly for other reasons as well.

What I don't understand is that if you don't like the rules DON'T PLAY. Go and make your you place with rules you like. It is still a free enough country that you can do that.

If I didn't like the rules I would not have signed up!

So I don't see why anyone would be upset......unless there is a conspiracy against ATS. Besides, look at all the trolls out there in post it land.........Causing trouble cause they CAN............

In response to the OP

This type of targeted trolling has been going on since I was sysop on the BBS. I've experienced the exact same types of behavior out of people who were bent on shutting down a board. I don't think it's a "conspiracy". I think it's very real, and targeted specifically to shut you down.

They go about this in a specific manner as you already stated, latching on to and harassing mods, tag teaming in threads, continual bending of rules, and using the rules to argue with. What they don't understand is, freedom of speech doesn't apply to message boards. You follow the rules, you play nice, or you can go. That's how I ran my board and it kept the trolls down to a minimum.

You'll always have all sorts of personalities. At times it is hard to decipher who is running a game on you and who isn't, but eventually they show themselves.

I came up with a 3 strikes rule. Three offenses and you're out. Worked rather well.

On another forum, we had exclusive paid (yearly) membership, and believe me, not many trolls want to pay to troll. That also cut down on the amount of trolling.

Of course, there are some vicious people out there who troll, just because they get off on it. Inciting is about the best thing they do. When they get no where, they move on to another forum.

reply to post by intrepid


Jeah I'm willing, too bad it will probably be me repeating everything I've said here, and you on the other site denying the censorship.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Is discussing drugs on public forumns legal in the united states? I am quite certain that in many countries it is not! Perhaps ats does not wish to allow such discussion for fear of lawsuits. In that case I don't blame them!

And whats the big deal if you can't discuss this topic? Not all topics are
suitable for public discourse and for good reason I might add....common sense!

Discussion of legal drugs like ecstacy and salvia divinorum is legal, but afaik this website isn't set up to discuss drug use

Even if it is legal in the united states what about people posting from countries where such discussion is banned, especially muslim countries!

I think this is a huge gray area and could get people into trouble without them even knowing it. Probably the best policy is to censor this topic on all public forumns, unless special considerations are met.

Originally posted by enigmania
reply to post by jfj123

 

I know you're answering a lot of posts so maybe you missed mine. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind answering it?

Oh I saw your posts, just didn't want to dignify them with a response, since I'm not participating in your hypthetical setups.

Interesting so you're saying you actually don't believe what you're saying? Which leaves us with the fact that you're agruing to argue.
I think this response clearly show us what you're about.

I hate to say this but I think this is an example of exactly what the mod was talking about. Just my opinion of course.

PS if your argument can't stand up a basic debate point that I've made, good luck with the mod

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
What a load a crap.

It seems as though, despite our best efforts with links and U2U's, some people either refuse to read our rationale for the current moratorium on drug-related topics, or have read it, and refuse to accept it for the sake of continuing a straw-man argument.

The Update #2 Post

We've seen first hand, in many more cases than members would normally be aware, an impossible-to-manage number of immature stoner comments in threads on drug related topics. We've seen both public and private complaints from thread-starters that the stoner replies are ruining what should be a good thread. The analogy I used previously in this thread is apt: Drug-related topics, of any kind, are like a bright porch light that attracts the wrong kind of moths to fly about and irritate us... they're impossible to kill as more will come... they fly about and pester everyone... it's impossible to enjoy the porch... they ruin the fun everyone is having on the porch... and the only sure solution is to turn off the light.

As I've repeatedly said, and many choose to ignore or reject, our decision was not based on legalities or revenue... but on community management.

Let's revisit the OP, it seems to have gotten lost:



Originally posted by neformore

A Conspiracy Against ATS?

So here we are, sitting on the worlds most popular site for alternative topics and conspiracies, and yet there's one that never really gets discussed, and that is the Conspiracy against ATS.

"What the hell are you talking about Nef?" I hear you ask.....

Indulge me.

I sit here in a unique position. I'm a site member, I'm a moderator too and amongest other things that brought me to the dance here, I'm a conspiracy theorist.

What that means is two things really - firstly, I get into some really weird conversations at parties, and secondly, I tend to look for trends/links in things.

Let me start with an obvious example.

Towards the back end of last year ATS found itself in a particularly unique position. Whilst the Presidential campaigns were running we found out that we were being visited extensively by the RNC and DNC's hosting servers, which - you may recall - ultimately ended up in ATS having to crack down on some particularly nasty trashy political discussion.

The crack down, in turn drew attention from the actual subjects of the election that mattered (because it focused on cleaning up the trash and rubbish that was caused) and the vocal minority then set about making out allegations that ATS suppressed peoples rights to free speech etc, when actually what we were doing was trying to raise the bar and promote decent political debate.

The people involved deliberately posted all kinds of spurious rubbish, regurgitated it, turned it all ways round, crossed the line in the sand that the site owners drew up deliberately, broke the T&C and then complained that they were the injured party.

Unsurprisingly, when the election passed, the "attention" dropped off.

"well Nef, that's politics for you, and it was an election...."

Yeah, I knew you'd say that. That's not the end of it.

Like I said, I notice trends.



Before I became a mod, as a member, I noticed that ATS was being visited by a "cluster" of bigots. These people manifested themselves in a number of ways, some were subtle, some more direct. Their MO was to appear "reasonable" whilst they lined up their agenda, and then they banded in to promote it - the eventual subject of choice for them at that time was holocaust denial. There were two or three of them tag-teaming each other in threads, all with the same or very similar message. I could, and did, make predictions of who would post in certain threads at certain times.

The message - disturbing as it was to me - isn't the issue in this case. Its what happened when the people were called on it, at first by members, and then by staff - the complaint and protestation from the "cluster" was that ATS was at fault, that the rules were too restrictive.

The people had deliberately positioned themselves in place to break the T&C, did it, then tried to make out that it was ATS's fault.



When the Israeli incursion into Gaza happened recently, we saw a massive resurgence in hate speech. And by that I mean real hate speech, so much so that, once again, ATS had to step in and draw the line.

Guess what happened? Allegations once again that ATS was at fault, by people who had deliberately positioned themselves to break the T&C.



Then there are the simple ones. The "blazes of glory". Again, they come via deliberate T&C infractions, stuff that is very basic - usually from people who claim to be new to the site but seem to know an awful lot about the rules here. Sometimes they latch on to a particular mod who has done/said something to them. Its never their fault that they cause a problem, its ATS's fault....



You know where I'm going with the next one I'm sure.

Let me address the drug thing, and provide some context from a mod perspective.

The drug issue has mostly bubbled under the surface for a long time. It was a minor thing for most folks - some threads got started, some got moved to RATS, some folks had their wrists slapped, the odd one or two were banned for posting really stupid things, but generally, it was a benign thing for the most. A sore point for some, yes, but tolerable to members and staff alike. The rationale behind putting stuff in RATS was explained, and most people lived with it.

Shortly after the heat of the US Presidential Election died down the staff noticed that the experiment with relaxing the ultra strict, zero tolerance on these topics on the main board, and instead keeping them in RATS, was starting to go wrong and stuff was beginning to spill out to the main forums just like the political mud slinging experienced previously did.

This started coming to a head around the end of January requiring such in inordinate amount of staff time/resources that SkepticOverlord and Springer had to "draw another line in the sand" - one that that essentially ended up illustrating a whole host of problems via posts filled with the typical vitriol about "selling out, censorship, government control, the death of freedom speech, etc..." in spite of the fact the real issues were clearly expressed and had nothing to do with any of that.

Let me try and put this into focus for you - at the end of January, one or two threads popped up, and they were dealt with. Following on a few more popped up, and they were dealt with too. Then issues of useage started appearing in otherwise rational threads. That propogated itself like a virus and suddenly the benign became an issue. And where closing and warning and advising used to work, we suddenly saw that - almost overnight - threads that were closed got starred and flagged to the top of the front page on ATS. (....yeah we figured that one out....)

The end result was that after Springer and SO stepped in, once again to protect their site, and to enforce the T&C and suddenly accounts that had not been active for years suddenly stepped into the fray, and they all had an opinion, and guess which way it leant? And once again, those people who deliberately positioned themselves to break the T&C cried foul, and tried to make out it was ATS's fault.

Seeing a trend here?

Not only that, but after the crackdown, and subsequent discussions/olive branch from the site owners, a few select people put themselves in a position again where they broke the T&C, causing chat to be shut down for a while - end result - more drama, with more claims that it was ATS's fault.



As a mod and a person, I know that everyone has off days. I know full well that sometimes what you read on the net can get you so damn riled up that you want to punch out your screen - every mod knows this. Despite the negative image that some folks intentionally want to portray us in, we are just normal folks. (Yeah I've seen the descriptions, been insulted, got the T-Shirt thanks!) We come from all walks of life, and have experienced all kinds of things. We have differing views on subjects, and embrace different politics and different philosophies

None of us are "out to get" anyone. What we want is a place where all the interesting stuff we like can be discussed freely, with a dose of civility and decorum that is generally lacking from most areas of the net. In other words, we try and promote the standards set out in the site T&C, because we believe in what ATS tries to represent.

You would be amazed - probably astounded - at the discussions that surround actions taken in a lot of cases. I'm not breaking any confidentialities when I tell you that the staff discussion on the recent drug action is currently on its 13th page, and has 257 posts in it, which when you consider the actual number of staff, is quite a lengthy discussion.

What I'm saying is that we don't take the stuff we do lightly. And we most certainly can see when people are mocking us.

The ATS Terms & Conditions have been around since the site started, except for a few noted additions added over the years. Its freely available for anyone to read who visits the site, any time.

ATS members are probably the most intelligent group of people I've personally come across on the 'net gathered up in one spot. The reason we're here is because we're interested in the different subjects, and we see things a little differently than most folks. We're all intelligent and most certainly we can all read. We all live in a society that has rules, and we all know the do's and don'ts of acceptable social etiquette.

So when I see people deliberately line themselves up to break the site T&C, and then cry foul after they've done it in order to cause as much drama as possible, I have to ask a simple question.

Why?

Why would someone want to do that?

Is it organised? It seems so. The politics thing certainly was externally, but also there were other elements involved that jumped on the bandwagon.

And each time those "other" elements are involved, the allegations are the same. "Suppression of free speech...., "Cointelpro....", "Sold out....", "In it for the money....", "CIA front...." (there are more)

My conclusion - theres a hard core of people out there who want to see the site go down. They use some fairly standard cointel practices - disseminate into the population, instigate, protest, and then disappear either through enforced banning, or self-withdrawal. They have many accounts, set up over a long period of time, and some just sit and sleep, or participate in benign threads until one day, one of them goes rogue and forces an "issue" - usually over a single T&C item - that allows the usual round of allegations to be lobbed out, in the vain hope that someones gonna crack. People get drawn into such things unwittingly, and some issues become bigger than others (as is the case with the recent one)

And any defence that ATS puts up to protect its name and image gets a "Well you would say that..." response.

Who is this group? I have no idea. Could be disgruntled ex-members, could be something else more sinister indeed. This stuff has been going on for a loooong time, but believe me, its there.

There is your conspiracy folks.

Disclaimer - I'm not out to start a witch hunt or poke fingers at anyone here. I'm certainly not inferring that anyone who has been involved in debating the issues that I've mentioned above is in the frame. What I am saying is that sometimes you - as members- and we - as staff - our are having our buttons pushed for us - quite deliberately in my opinion

As is true with everything in life, you need to question motives sometimes. Be it as significant as an artificially induced stock market crash, or as minor as an artificially induced drama debate.

Am I being paranoid? Maybe. But then a good conspiracy theorist is always a little paranoid....



[edit on 28-2-2009 by intrepid]

reply to post by intrepid


thank you

I tried with a post on page 9

must have been missed in the " sub topic"

I'm not going to lie to the members of ATS I'm not a big rule reader myself but I like this conspiracy theory. After all isn't the best way to take out a fortified organization is from the inside?
But what I'd like to know are the theories on who are these guys?
Government maybe? anyone?