Those who are Awake have no obligations to those who are asleep.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

Is reincarnation logical? is freewill logical?

So how far of a stretch is hearing god speak to you?

How do you know you know anything?

Reincarnation can be logical, depending on the premises you use to prove it.
Free will is logical if you understand it as responsible behavior, not as arbitrary behavior.
Hearing God speaking to you is a perception event. Perception is easily proven to be misleading in all cases (read Descartes, I will not try to explain it here).
Therefore, communication with God can only be immediate (not inter mediated by perception). Hearing voice of God (in your head) is definitely not true.

What do you illuminated super-beings want from us sheeple? You're all so smart, so powerful, you're all so rich. Powerful forces smile at your success and realign themselves to support all your endeavors. You have health and happiness in abundance, you're loved and respected by all you come across. What do you want from us? You're all blessed, you'll prosper for years .. nay, decades ... nay ... centruies to come! You and your kind are the very reason for the existence of the universe itself! You, sir, are the meaning of life itself! What do you want from us poor slobs?

Wow you're an a-hole ... and a second-rate internet troll, to boot. Tell us, oh wise, illuminated one, does it get lonely up their on your pedestal? Are your theosophically-inclined, geriatric mutual admiration societies really that successful in blinding you to the truth that most of your "ancient orders" popped up at about the same time that Machievelli counseled a Medici-Prince/Pope to "keep his friends close but his enemies closer"? Do you really think you'll wind up on top of any possible chaos? Do the terms "complex system" and "unintended consequences" really hold no meaning in your uber-smug brain? Don't you see yourselves for the dumb, stick-smashing apes that you are ... the ones who go around causing unbalancing chaos in order to maintain control at all costs because you can't add any meaningful value to the situation? You can't find the promised land, you can't find the sweet fruit, you can't find any way to reassure the younger ones, so all you do is grab a stick and thrash about like the ignorant barbarians you are, controlling through destabilization a system which resents your kind much more than you despise it? Nah. You probably realize none of these things. Go on with your bad selves ... You guys are the greatest!

reply to post by Realtruth

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand. Pure logic can't be rationalized as deficient in structure, no matter what way you frame your question. That is what politicians are very capable of conveying to their audiences. But they can only do so during a formal debate, a national address, etc. where the format of the dialogue must obey a strict set of parameters. But in most cases in reality, it is quite rare to have absolute, unconditional variables, such as in the following:

All laws are inherently immoral
The Community Reinvestment Act is a law
Therefore, the Community Reinvestment Act is immoral.

The fallacy originates in the very first clause, which remains empirically untested. We must be careful not to fall into these logical traps, lest we become slaves to a world of absolute self-conflicting truth-claims and untenable conclusions.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

You mean like when serial killers know that god tells them to kill some people and eat their brains. They understand that logic to... they dont question it, they dont need proof.

I forget what type of syllogism this is, but I know it's a type of deductive fallacy, which irrationally detracts from the original point. It's not wrong but it's definitely annoying and doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion, other than that it might prompt someone like me to correct you and therefore educate anyone who happens to read this... We are all pretty much aware of the extent to which logic can be applied to reason. As we age we inherit this knowledge from the world around us. Those that fail to do so are labeled as clinically insane and locked up so that they can no longer do harm to those of us who follow the rules. While it is sometimes important to express such a sentiment as yours, it's not always necessary because only the insane would every take such reasoning as logical.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by cognoscente]

reply to post by manganesejolt


There is yet to be a man born that can claim to have fathomed everything. At some point or another everybody encounters a patch of ignorance and they must pray to god that some good samaritan will lend a hand in guiding them out; lest they be doomed to spend eternity fondling an elephant’s leg wondering why this tree keeps trying to shrug them off.



* Seemed like other people were using flowery language to make themselves sound clever so I thought I’d join in. Now excuse me while I go and throw up in disgust at myself.

As much as I would love to not be weighed down by the crap that is modern humanity, I can only assume im here in this time and place for a reason, as much as sometimes I wish the cattle would just go away, I know in my heart that just letting the sleepers die is not the same thing as waking them all up.

I can only say - that for your sake - I hope you have this right -
Because if you don't
NO ONE will be there to help you sort it out.
Good luck with that.

reply to post by Mike_A


This whole thread has induced upon me a burning desire to throw myself into grandiloquent prose, no matter how bad I seem to carry it through. But really, this alone has been fun. If anyone catches the subtle pun in the previous sentence they get a cookie!

[edit on 28-2-2009 by cognoscente]

correct me if im wrong but i interpreted " we are more economicaly inclined and on the ball in the market and stocks so we should enjoy our luxury." being compared to, how those who struggle and are mourning for those around us, i would like to consider myself kind of intellectual and i have many talents but i cannot express them because in this world we all have our problems we are all put in unfortunate circumstances, this shouldn't be so, this is all because of money it is because this we should go back to basics back to exploration what feels better than discovering something new having a new experience, its exciting scary fun its all your emotions in one we used to explore the planet we mapped it out sure theres so much more we are finding everyday being ingnored so forget earth lets all work together to explore the universe its sooo fast its not fair that we are our body our lifetime our existance doesnt even ADD UP to the distance from us to another planet or galaxy, do you understand how is it fair that a human animal any conscious being should die before it gets to experience everything in it reality that is hell right there. why would we be brought into a ENORMOUS SPACE filled TO THE BRIM with things we will never see.?

There are tons of goals to be stated, reached, achieved...
When I look at my five year old, all I want is for him to be as happy as he is today for as long as I can. And I will do ANY thing to make sure that he is as comfortable and happy twenty years from now as he is today.
It's not only my obligation as a parent, but my responsibility, to do as much as I can for him and, subsequently, everyone else like him.

To the OP..

You have craftily fooled yourself into a false awakening and the slumber you now find yourself in is unrecognizable by your own subtle dilusions.

The terrible times you think you have carefully made plans to avoid will pound your experience like an Egyptian monolith crashing down on your fragile glass house reality.

You are the one who is in need of waking up my freind, it is you who requires the assistance of the true enlightened for the matter you now find yourself in is more dense than those who you claim to be unaware.

Struggle as you may with these words with your egocentric intelligence will try to defend your position, however truth is without reproach and you will see these words to be true and the devastation you shallowly hope to avoid comes a knock knocking on your door.

My advice, learn the true meaning charity and even if people dont want your help, just do it anyway.

reply to post by manganesejolt


I can not agree or disagree because i'm not awake or enlightened but I will ask you claim to know more then the masses please share some ideoligies, ideas philosophyies anything that can be debated. Instead of the vague I'm awake, come on man if your awake share an idea that can be debated. I normally don't even reply to these post but this one was extremly arrogant. What makes you awake, you were just born like that ? that was the belief of old monarks you worked for it? please share oh yea you don't think you should help your fellow man. I think you are very normal and just completely believe your own ideas and so think you are awake, but like I said I don't claim to be enlightened so don't know it all.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, even if they are asleep or choose not to see.

reply to post by manganesejolt
Well aren't we well read... haughty haughty...

rant( sprinkle liberally with expletives to taste, I don't use 'em):

Enjoy being part of the " Master race" as long as they let you play too... that post was one of the most narcissistic, elitist things I've ever read...seig-heil ! . "as long as they cooperate"? like the chinese prisoners who are stripped of internal organs for transplant into party members?? Bet you KNOW what's best for every one else too huh? Who are you "Yalely"to judge yourself more worthwhile than another? The rest of humanity, may beg to differ. Solely on your sociopathic outlook.

"Snobby Elitist "who don t play well with others will be dealt with under rule .303!"(paraphrasing "Breaker" Morant!)

reply to post by 31337


"But the meek shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37:11)

My preferential selection of this verse from the Bible is no way a logical appeal to authority. If something of this magnitude of intelligent thought can be located in the Bible, then it it can probably be found in a whole host of human literature as well. The range of this sentiment, that the disadvantaged should be cared for, means that it is no notion at all, but an intrinsic part of integral human character.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by cognoscente]

With all due respect to the OP,

From someone who says they went to Yale, this has got to be the biggest bunch of silliness I have read in a long time. First, we owe it to all, every citizen, to help them wake up. If we can't do that, then we owe it to each of us to work to help them see the truth. What we must never do, is stop just because its hard or because people choose to live in denial!

I mean, just what the hell do you think we are already doing??? We have already been failing as a society because those of us who are awake continue to ignore or dismiss those who are still asleep. Instead, we should be doing everything we can to wake their lazy, or even more likely, those who are to freaken scared to think about it! Most people are scared, scared out of their minds, scared to death about what they are seeing happening to our country and in their neighborhoods. And then we, those who are awake, we allow those who deal in stupidity and socialism to take these scared people by the hand and lead them to even more pain and suffering? Those people who are destroying our country are able to do this because they know we, the enlightened ones, are the true lazy ones. They, those who steal from this country, they are the ones taking the time to feed them the lies, misinformation, and fear... While we, those who hope for the best but continue to do nothing to teach those we think are asleep, we are the ones making excuses and continue to walk around shaking our heads thinking they are the ones to blame. Shame on us!

From a person who claims to hale from Yale, you haven't thought this out one damn bit. You don't walk away from those who are asleep when their house is burning down... You must do everything you can to wake them up, and that includes shaking the crap out of them when its called for. Instead of just walking away... STOP and STAND UP! Continue to show them the truth until they finally stop and look, read, and understand. You, we, all of us owe this to your communities, to OUR Country! Anything less from anyone of us is on each of our heads, because we are in this together... PERIOD!!!


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 1-3-2009 by littlebunny]

You say we have no more responsibility to the asleep than the quick have the dead. but we do have responsibility to the dead and to the asleep. If we truly care for humanity we must carry the responsibility for all of it. Never before has the fate of so many rested upon the shoulders of so few. The mantle of responsibility is on our shoulders and I fear if we do not recognize that we are just as asleep as everybody else.

Thanks op.
After reading the reactions to your post, I more clearly see the delusions of those on the cusp of awakening. They seek the truth, but like the rest of the "sheeple", remain asleep. They leave the truth in the realms of conspiracy never applying it to their own reality. They believe that there are these controlling puppet masters who run the world, but refuse to accept that they live in that world.

There are things in this world I would change if I had the resources, but I don't have an abundance of resources, so they are allocated for myself. When your able to see the full scope and the colossalness of the order, you should realize that there is no amount of people you can awaken to change the path. If you awoke the heard, chaos would follow and those pulling the strings will continue the show.

Originally posted by manganesejolt
Let's just come out and admit that right now, and it will make all our lives much simpler.

I just want those of us who are Awake to feel no shame in it, to luxuriate in the radiance of full consciousness and to have faith that all works for the best of those who deserve it.

I partially agree. But deep down I feel this is falling into the realm of those that want us asleep. So I am mixed.

I grew up being taught as a Christian that we need to convert everyone we can to the same genre and version of Christianity that I was. I always wondered why, cause they obviously don't want to be "saved".

Then as I grew and became more and more awake especially after 911 and buying a gun in Kalifornia, I really tried to let others know what was going on......what a let down. I stopped posting at my favorite gun forum...... Stupid Sheeple....is all I can think ( and there is a lot of sheeple here at ATS, heck I might even still be one myself!)

Now in the last few months I have awakened even more and to my surprise in a way I never thought I would go, along with several others. It is nice to say "welcome to my lonely little world". Now that I have gotten more awake, I see I still have a ways to go!

Now I am in a position that I still feel the need to "save" the sheeple, even thought they would ridicule me and would make fun of me (like I would have done myself years ago).

Part of me says screw em, but deep down if I do that I feel like I/we would be joining the ranks of those that want us asleep........

[edit on 2/28/2009 by Oolon]

This topic is funny because it truly is a paradox. It made me smile as I contemplated it.

The OP's argument that the awake are no responsible for the asleep cannot be true because of the following:

1. The final frontier is the journey within.
2. As you delve further within yourself, you find that we are all connected.
3. These connections unveil that we are all one.

Discovering that there is no you, but rather us and that we are me.

I am all and all is me. I am you and you are me.

I then imagine if time in non-linear then it is even possible that we could even be the same person existing at different times across this non-linear nexus.

Makes me laugh out loud each time a consider this. Simple, yet complex. Paradox in a nice nifty box wrapped with a bow.

reply to post by manganesejolt


For those of us who have tried to save the world for most of our lives have learned a valuable lesson:

It is a program of attraction rather than promotion! Promoting rarely works, and usually offends and wards off those whom you are trying to help. This is a fact.

I work in human behavior and find that it is not hard to attract those who want what I have. But I first had to overcome the "I must save everyone" mentality. It is far too codependent.

If someone wants what I have, and know, they approach me. I am visible and present for those who are attracted to my words, ie, ATS and other situations.

I reached out for help, knowledge and guidance many years ago. No-one led me. I knew that my way did not work. I became a sponge wanting to learn all that I was capable of.

Sometimes loving someone means letting them go, letting them fall. For only by falling can some get humble enough to ask for help or knowledge.

Fear is the acronym for:

False
Evidence
Appearing
Real

If any of you are relying just on man to deliver man, then we are doomed. But if one believes in a power greater than themselves then there is no reason for debilitating fear.

The "awake" verses the "asleep" WILL BE a different class of people than the OP thinks. This I can assure you. A person may feel they are awake and yet be delusional.

Different Game, different rules, different tools!!!