Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

Originally posted by badmedia
Because when someone gives you an answer and you can't dismiss what they say, you only go to compare them against the arguments you can prove are wrong.

Well what are you supposed to say when someone invents a 10th dimension in which our logic can not reach the flaws of God?

That's essentially saying: yeah, don't concern yourself about the flaws, because somewhere out there, a dimension exists where illogical statements become logical. Just accept it.

How about this one:
If God is all knowing and all powerful, then while he created us, he created our end as well. Thus making him directly responsible for the result.
How then is any sort of judgment, trial, or tribulation not redundant and pointless when dealing with such a God.
He judges a person for how he made them?
He tests someone when he already knows what he will do, and in fact created him/her to do it?

If you paint a picture, do you "condemn" the painting for being exactly what you made it to be?
Surely you see the flaw.
When dealing with an omnipotent and omniscient being, 99% of the Bible is pointless and redundant and indeed extremely illogical...

reply to post by TruthParadox


Great post TP...

brings to mind a Sagan quote: "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition."

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
If god exist why dont we all believe in him ?
Why those who do believe in a god or gods dont believe in the same ways?
Why it's always only one lucky guy, girl who as the privilege of talking to this god and then the mission too spread the truth to the non-believers?
Why religions are always closely linked to ethical enteties, (ex: caucasians mostly believing in christianity, arabians mostly believing in the islamic religion, asians in boudha, indian in hindou.) or even political beliefs, (ex:France, italia, spain, mostly catholics while england, germany, netherlands are mostly protestants.)
Why are we born without the idea of the existance of a god, we have to learn beleving.

How do you know that we're not born with the knowledge of God? The home that I grew up in was really nonreligious. The only time I heard the name of God was as a swear word. Despite this, I believed in him. The Bible even says that we're born with an innate knowlegde of God [I know some don't take that as proof, but hey, I do]. When we choose not to follow God, he lets us go our way, he doesn't force himself on us. He wants us to freely choose to follow him.

The reason that the various faiths don't worship the same way is due to Satan and his attempts to counterfeit God's perfect plan. Remember, he wants to be worshiped. He also knows he's going to lose, so, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some, 'I'm taking all the people I can with me' attitude going on.

The ethnic division, mainly Christian-Muslim, has to do with where Paul went to spread the Gospel. For some reason, God wanted him to go to Europe instead of Asia/Middle East. It just so happens that Europe was filled with caucasians. I feel I should point out too that the Middle East, until the rise of Islam, was mostly Christian. Once Islam came to be, people were converted at sword point. [I know that the Crusaders did the same thing for the Roman Catholic Church, but seemingly not to the extent the muslims did as their aren't a plethora of Roman Catholics in, let's say, Syria.]

The division of the European nations between Catholic and Protestant had to do with those people's stance on the Roman church and the Reformation. [Germany is actually split in half. Southern Germany (Bayern/Baden-Würtenberg) is pretty much Catholic, the rest is Protestant.]

Originally posted by kinglizard
Faith cannot be broken by the twisting of words or incomplete understanding.

Neither can faith be broken by contrary evidence or logic.
Which is why faith should be discarded, as it makes no sense to hold a belief solely on faith - thus conceding that the evidence is lacking and that faith is required to believe something which can not stand on its own merits.

Rather, honesty should be the prime bases for beliefs or lack thereof.
Honesty would admit that there really isn't any evidence which suggests that there is a God, and that even if there is, such a God would more than likely respect the honesty of admitting that an assumption should not be passed off as fact.

reply to post by n1zzzn


Yah, I've been saying you can't disprove the existence of anything. Therefor, the burden of proof lies on proving the existence...

If that can't be done, than using Occam's Razor, we need to realize that the existence of a supreme being is not necessary, and remove him from the formulae.

We need to be learning from the universe... not projecting our beliefs ONTO the universe by answering the unknown with an illogical assertion...

Hope that gives insight as to my Point of view....

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Surely you see the flaw.

I surely do. But there would be a big disagreement about what it is. There is neither time nor space here to adequately address what's been raised. I'll close out my participation by leaving you with this - It took effort and time and deliberation and study and contemplation to arrive where I've arrived. And I'm not done studying and contemplating and deliberating. But what I've found (and you may disagree) is that everything I ever thought was a contradiction in The Bible was the result of a lack of understanding on my part. I'd misunderstood something, or missed it completely. And for me (your mileage may vary), whenever I encounter something that appears to be contradictory or "not fair", further work uncovers where I was wrong.

But that's just me.

[edit on 2/19/2009 by yeahright]

"If you can change the future you are not omniscient. "
This part makes no sense.

reply to post by nj2day


Study the Bible with open mind and care. The "sacred word" is spiritual and vital food. try

reply to post by octotom


There are studies going on right now to determine if faith is the result of some sort of genetic predisposition that would have given the species an edge on survival... but they are pretty much non-conclusive at the moment as far as I know...

There is strong evidence though, that in the beginning of life, children will accept any adult's (or parent) words as law... and this is the result of natrual selection...

It would have been extremely valuable to the survival of our ancestors if they didn't question their elders growing up, therefore, making the passing of survival knowledge between generations exponentially faster...

However, this would also suggest that staunch believers in the exact dogma of their parents are unable to overcome this initial instinctual "pre-wiring". (No flaming please, i'm not trying to poke fun... I'm just laying out what the theory is)...

This could mean that in the last few hundred years, selection pressures have changed, and perhaps the ability to break away from those initial parental teachings has somehow benefited survival of the individual... But I'd be hard pressed to suggest why this would be...

I'll stop there... as that could be a separate thread in itself... one I might make later... if its possible to have rational conversation about it here on ATS... Which I doubt lol

believers would take that discussion as a direct attempt to poke fun, and call them "un-evolved"

reply to post by yeahright


Yah, thats kinda the problem I have with philosophy... You can walk away from any quote with about 10 different meanings

Anyway, I'm glad to hear the self reflecting bit... I too did alot of reading, and researching... only my result took me away from the church...

While I do not agree with your conclusions, I can certainly understand and appreciate the process

Originally posted by Gregor100
www.youtube.com...

If you cant be bothered going to youtube the video says this:

"The god of the bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

If you can change the future you are not omniscient.

If you cannot you are not omnipotent.

Myth busted"

Pretty hard evidence right there....

Edit - Well spotted out i mis-quoted... wooops..

[edit on 19/2/09 by Gregor100]

omniscient
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge


omnipotent
1 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence


first of all i don't get what this proves at all. second the bible was written by men you know people and the bits of truth within it were distorted. third source is not a ruler or authority figure that's a false teaching done thru religion to promote fear and worship instead of feeling at one with and equal to source...... i'm not being argumentative i just don't get what this proves.......

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by devareous
it just means god is the alpha and the omega,he is teh all,love and hate,pain and pleasure,he is everything,thats what it means.Read the gosphel of thomas to understand when he gives allt he oppsites god is all them both side eveything.

Hrm... and I suppose your going to tell us why we should believe the bible to be true right?

I see no reason to regard the book in any more reverence than any other literary work.

I have to say you're spot on there. I'm not an athiest, but I find it hard to take the bible that has been written and rewritten by different people over the centuries as the true word of God. No offense intended to anyone who believes otherwise.

first let me state i despise religion. i believe in a creator. the belief as faulty as it may be (which i have yet to see any) is my choice. i believe we came from a source. that is all. our actions are what bring about different circumstances. not all the praying or begging in the world. thats not what free will is for. how dare a creator intervene when one person begs for something superficial and selfish like money or a boy to like them just because they believe some guy died (as if death is such a bad thing??) on a cross, yet he will not intervene in the child who is praying for their sibling dieing of cancer and all because they have never heard of the name jesus in their 8 years of life? (sorry my ADD just begs to be descriptive haha)


NOW....
well in terms of circular logic, i think your statement is just that. who said a god would change the future? you? religion? why WOULD god change the future? when we clearly have free will? thats what evolution is. it is why this world is in the state it is in. because of US! your argument is with religion, not necessarily a creator. please correct me if there is something im overlooking here.

this is a great topic S&F!

reply to post by TruthParadox


It is illogical to you because you lack the basic understandings that are needed to understand it. I know this because it was once illogical to me as well, and I seen it just the way you do.

You are basing your understanding not on what you can find the truth in, but rather on what the people who do things in the name of Jesus or any other religion says. And that is the error. The way the Christians explain it is wrong, but to focus on that wrong explanation as a way of debunking is no different than say a topic about aliens and using the worse example of an obvious hoax you can find as a way of debunking it.

There are 2000 years of misunderstandings, deliberate manipulations and so forth. No doubt about it. But if you can't see the difference in the manipulation and what is meant, then you are still blind to the truth being spoken.

For example, the entire notion of people saying you shouldn't question god. This is false. It's the exact opposite. And you can sit around and point out these ignorant people as a way of dismissing it all if you want. However, I'd rather point out things like this:

Matthew 7:
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Everything you can name that is wrong with the Christian religion is things Jesus was completely the opposite on.

With a few simple understandings, the things the bible says makes sense. Is it exact Science? No. Remember these are understandings in the context of people 2000 years ago. Imagine trying to explain how a radio works to someone back then. It's going to end up sounding like magic to them. And so something may be described in such a way, but if you have understanding then you will see what it is talking about.

Everything that Jesus dealt with is apparent and here today. But you can't see that Jesus was fighting the same exact fight then that we do now unless you understand. Jews = Christian. Pharisees = Preachers like John Hagee. Romans = government. Moneychangers = Central Banking. Synogauges = Churches. The names and such change, but the actual meanings and understandings behind these do not.

What does it mean to actually seek the truth? If you are looking for anyway of debunking something, then you were never looking for the truth. You were looking for a way to debunk it, and that is what you will find. When I search for truth I may listen to something that is 99% trash/junk. But it is the 1% of truth within that I look for. So if you want to find truth, then you need to look for the truth in things, rather than pointing out and focusing on the lies. When you dismiss something for the lie, then you also dismiss any truth which may be found inside as well.

I do not see things in absolutes. I see things in patterns and actions(fruits). I do not look at the church and say - oh they are about Jesus. I look at the actions of the church and realize they are the exact same function as a synagogue. These are keys.

The bible is full of keys. The easiest key is this - Jesus = truth, the way and the light. This means when you see Jesus, you can exchange his name for these. The truth. The truth was sacrificed so that the lie of this world can live. Those who find salvation in his death find salvation in the lie. This I call the church of Satan. Because it is in his life and example that truth is told, and I find salvation in his life, not in his death. I know why what he said is true, I know why he did and lived the way he did. Even if it is just a fake story, it is still telling you the truth.

What people like NJ do is about like taking the Movie the Matrix. And then you saying it shows the truth and the Matrix is real. And then NJ comes along, haha prove to me these Machines exist. It's just a movie. All the while ignoring the truth the movie is giving. Such is ignorance. And that is the same thing that is being done with the bible, by design I might add.

The literal interpretation of the bible is ignorant. And to argue for or against the literal interpretation is ignorance, because you have failed to understand either way. So see beyond it. Look at the story of Jesus like you do the movie the Matrix and so on.



[edit on 19-2-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by TruthParadox
How about this one:
If God is all knowing and all powerful, then while he created us, he created our end as well. Thus making him directly responsible for the result.
How then is any sort of judgment, trial, or tribulation not redundant and pointless when dealing with such a God.
He judges a person for how he made them?
He tests someone when he already knows what he will do, and in fact created him/her to do it?

I have heard this question so many times and wondered it myself until I thought about this. What if God knows every single outcome to every problem we encounter. Couldn't God know where each path leads? For example, let's say I have a test in a week. God know's what will happen should I choose to not study. He know's what will happen if I study the day before. He know's every single outcome to whichever study method I choose, but it is up to me to choose from the paths laid out before me. Does that make any sense?

reply to post by yeahright


That's fine.
But I don't see how it could be a flaw in my understanding. At best, it's a flaw in the Bible (hey, nothing new there).
There's simply no reason for judgment or tests when dealing with an all knowing and all powerful God - because if there is an all knowing and all powerful God, then it should be obvious that this is no more than a play that was written by him (gender?) eons ago.



reply to post by nj2day


As far as faith in an afterlife is concerned, imo the main cause is the 'goal' of evolution - to continue life.
Being a result of evolution, that is our main purpose.
Having linguistic thought and reason, we realize that that purpose must come to an end, so the natural reaction to that is to convince our mind that it won't come to an end. This is why some people will not give up said beliefs no matter what evidence is presented - in a sense, the belief is needed to cope with life.
Though as far as faith in general, I'm sure there are several reasons.
That would be an interesting thread...

Originally posted by just_another_yourself
first let me state i despise religion. i believe in a creator. the belief as faulty as it may be (which i have yet to see any) is my choice. i believe we came from a source. that is all. our actions are what bring about different circumstances. not all the praying or begging in the world. thats not what free will is for. how dare a creator intervene when one person begs for something superficial and selfish like money or a boy to like them just because they believe some guy died (as if death is such a bad thing??) on a cross, yet he will not intervene in the child who is praying for their sibling dieing of cancer and all because they have never heard of the name jesus in their 8 years of life? (sorry my ADD just begs to be descriptive haha)


NOW....
well in terms of circular logic, i think your statement is just that. who said a god would change the future? you? religion? why WOULD god change the future? when we clearly have free will? thats what evolution is. it is why this world is in the state it is in. because of US! your argument is with religion, not necessarily a creator. please correct me if there is something im overlooking here.

this is a great topic S&F!

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo

Could not agree more well said

I think it is about damn time that we humans stopping waiting for some messiah or god to magically appear and save our bacon.

Don't you all think the time for waiting is long gone?

We need to believe in ourselves and work together to shape the future of our species.

Originally posted by badmedia
You are basing your understanding not on what you can find the truth in, but rather on what the people who do things in the name of Jesus or any other religion says.

I'm simply pointing out the fallacies of Christianity.
You seem to be saying that I am accurate in the fallacies but am not talking about your God so the fallacies are moot.
But I'm not attempting to disprove your version of God, I'm only pointing out Christian flaws.

I've said many times "IF God is omnipotent and omniscient, than [this] doesn't work".
Because if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything is his will and our discussion is pointless because he made us to have this discussion.

Do you believe that God is all powerful and all knowing?
If this is true than you can be nothing other than what he created you to be, as time would be irrelevant to him.

If you don't believe that God holds those attributes, than I am not arguing against you.

Originally posted by badmedia
And that is the error. The way the Christians explain it is wrong, but to focus on that wrong explanation as a way of debunking is no different than say a topic about aliens and using the worse example of an obvious hoax you can find as a way of debunking it.

But I'm not trying to disprove God, just the Christian view of God. That IS what I'm trying to disprove, so you misunderstand what it is I'm doing.

Originally posted by badmedia
What does it mean to actually seek the truth? If you are looking for anyway of debunking something, then you were never looking for the truth. You were looking for a way to debunk it, and that is what you will find.

I've looked for the truth. Where the supernatural is concerned, we can never know, and those that claim to know are delusional.
Even if God whispered in my ear, couldn't it more easily be ascribed to a psychological need to trick myself into believing something which will give me some feeling of security?

I'm a materialist because that's the best way I can claim to know anything - even then, I can't know 100% if any of this is real - but I have no reason to believe that it's not. Everything else is an opinion which should not be presented as fact.

Are you honest enough to admit that you also can not be 100% sure about anything, including your God's existence?

reply to post by Barla Von


Great post!

Unfortunately, its much more comfortable to sit back and wait, do nothing, and then call it god's plan...

When people come to grips that "god's plan" is a cop out for actually getting off their butts and acting for themselves... we'll be better off...