Good question about hell

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by moocowman
The insect obviously will never have an option, it has to have a starting point of sitting or standing, which it was designed to do.

i do not agree

You agree that the insect was designed by the creator of all that there is

Do you disagree that it was created to sit?

Do you disagree that it was created to stand ?

Do you disagree that the insect is in one position or the other ?

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by moocowman

 

Sorry dude, digression not allowed, no fathers have been mentioned, no reaping or sowing , me you or I.

We're just doing the simple yes no thing and have started with the creator of all that there is, and an insect that sits or stands.
So far

Anymore nonsense off you my boy and I'll take my ball home LOL

Originally posted by moocowman
You agree that the insect was designed by the creator of all that there is

yes, i agree

Do you disagree that it was created to sit?

no i agree

Do you disagree that it was created to stand?

depends on the insect lol, but no, i agree.

Do you disagree that the insect is in one position or the other ?

no i agree

reply to post by miriam0566


There you go, you now agree that this insect is incapable of doing anything other than what it was created to do, and it's creator cannot not know, what it is going to do. It does exactly what it was created to do which is either sit or stand depending on what position it was created in the first place sitting or standing.


The creator now gives the insect the option to sit or stand, as the creator cannot not know anything, then the creator knows exactly what the insect will do.


However if the insect was created sitting it would need a reason to stand and if it was created standing it would need a reason to sit.

I the creator rewards (lets say food] the insect that is sitting, for standing then it has a reason to stand, likewise if it's starting point was standing and it is rewarded for sitting.

Needless to say the creator cannot not know, the outcome of the experiment as it created the insect in the starting position.

If the insect had a point of view, it would appear that it has the option of whether to sit or stand. If it's starting point was sitting, it would appear that it had the option of standing, however it only stands in order to obtain the food, again something it was created to do.

Again the creator cannot not know what the insect will do and the insect that was created sitting will do nothing, unless the creator had created a relationship between the insect and the food.


Do you agree or disagree so far ?










[edit on 17-2-2009 by moocowman]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by miriam0566

 

There you go, you now agree that this insect is incapable of doing anything other than what it was created to do, and it's creator cannot not know, what it is going to do. It does exactly what it was created to do which is either sit or stand depending on what position it was created in the first place sitting or standing.


The creator now gives the insect the option to sit or stand, as the creator cannot not know anything, then the creator knows exactly what the insect will do.


However if the insect was created sitting it would need a reason to stand and if it was created standing it would need a reason to sit.

I the creator rewards (lets say food] the insect that is sitting, for standing then it has a reason to stand, likewise if it's starting point was standing and it is rewarded for sitting.

Needless to say the creator cannot not know, the outcome of the experiment as it created the insect in the starting position.

If the insect had a point of view, it would appear that it has the option of whether to sit or stand. If it's starting point was sitting, it would appear that it had the option of standing, however it only stands in order to obtain the food, again something it was created to do.

Again the creator cannot not know what the insect will do and the insect that was created sitting will do nothing, unless the creator had created a relationship between the insect and the food.


Do you agree or disagree so far ?
[edit on 17-2-2009 by moocowman]

How can you put limits on what the creator God knows!

The creator created everything for a purpose. And the insect do have a purpose, And is created with all the abilities needed to do them. The insect will do their job and only that job. The insects are created with limits to what they can do, and so are the rest of the animals except Humans.

The only exception is that we humans can train animals and insects to do things they never would be able to figure out on their own. And if we stopped conditioning the animals or insects they would return to their main purpose.

I think the clue is to what abilities the animals have to remember their actions besides what they are created to do by instincts. God gave them this instinct and that is a form of control,limit or a law given by God. So God knows exactly what every specie is capable of doing. God dosent have to know each and every one of them God knows exactly what they are limited to do by instinct.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66
The insects are created with limits to what they can do, and so are the rest of the animals except humans.

Except humans?

Holy Cow, where did you get indoctrinated?
I am only asking, because they really did a damn good job.

Do you know how many people are not even capable of ordering a pizza on the phone?

How do you know the limits of a fly? Have you ever been a fly? Does a fly astral project? Do you know that? No? What does a fly think? You may think that flies don't think, but how do you know? Because flies eat excrements? Do you know what's in your food you buy? Do you think you eat anything better? Do you think just because a fly bumps into a window pane, it is less intelligent? Do you know how many people cannot deal with the most trivial things? If you put these most trivial things as a metaphor for a window pane, we are even with the flies. Flies can't speak? How do you know? If you are so busy limiting everything, you wouldn't even catch the most obvious right?

Animals are also limited? You are just limiting yourself without even conscious awareness by making such statements. By the way, when did you last time think consciousnessly? Answer: Never.
Do you know why? Because you don't even know where your thoughts come from. Conscious thinking is an illusion.

Oh, and what if God is a fly? If God created everything, then God is also a fly. If God created everything, then God created animals and insects. And you come and say that these beings are limited?

Do you know what you did? You limited God's creations (and possibly God too). (DISCLAIMER: provided God exists)

Greetings

PS: I wanted to call your statements "close-minded", but it's not true. You are definitely a great person, but your perception of the world stands to debate (at least in my point of view).

NOTE: I marked the words in your quote in bold.



[edit on 17-2-2009 by TheWriter]

Originally posted by moocowman
There you go, you now agree that this insect is incapable of doing anything other than what it was created to do,

thats not what i agreed to. your drawing implications that werent stated and moving on based on this assumptions.

i agreed that the insect was created by the god who cannot not know anything.

i agreed that he was created to sit

i agreed that he was created to stand

i agreed that he was in one position or the other.

im not sure how you are able to conclude that the i agree that the insect is "incapable of doing anything other than what it was created to do"

reply to post by spy66

How can you put limits on what the creator God knows!

Hold up there big boy, if you'd read and understood the post as Miriam clearly has, you'd observe the that the creator in this example is omniscient and omnipresent from the outset.

The creator created everything for a purpose. And the insect do have a purpose, And is created with all the abilities needed to do them. The insect will do their job and only that job. The insects are created with limits to what they can do, and so are the rest of the animals except Humans.

We are her dealing with an imaginary insect, an again if you'd read the post you would see that the insect is obviously limited by its' design.

Please pay attention as Miriam has done to the post, introducing what you claim to know or believe is not relevant at this juncture

God doesn't have to know each and every one of them God knows exactly what they are limited to do by instinct.

We have previously accepted that for the creator to be omniscient and omnipresent it is the creator of all that there is, therefore there is nothing that it cannot know.

Please pay attention here your digressing by adding your opinion and obfuscating a logical discussion.

reply to post by miriam0566

im not sure how you are able to conclude that the i agree that the insect is "incapable of doing anything other than what it was created to do"

As the insect cannot do anything else other than sit or stand which you agreed to, and it does those because it was created/designed to do that then it cannot do anything else unless it is created to do that something else.

For it to do anything other than what it was created to do ie sit or stand, there must be something else other than its creator giving the impetus for it do do that something else.

If there is a something else, allowing the insect to do something else other than sit or stand, then logically this is from somewhere else other than its' creator, as the creator designed it to sit or stand, nothing else.

If there is something else that would cause the insect to do something other than what it was designed to do (sit or stand) then this would automatically rule out the creator being all that there is.

Originally posted by moocowman
As the insect cannot do anything else other than sit or stand which you agreed to, and it does those because it was created/designed to do that then it cannot do anything else unless it is created to do that something else.

For it to do anything other than what it was created to do ie sit or stand, there must be something else other than its creator giving the impetus for it do do that something else.

If there is a something else, allowing the insect to do something else other than sit or stand, then logically this is from somewhere else other than its' creator, as the creator designed it to sit or stand, nothing else.

If there is something else that would cause the insect to do something other than what it was designed to do (sit or stand) then this would automatically rule out the creator being all that there is.

lol, i got clarification from your reply to spy, as i wasnt aware that you were talking about a hypothetical simplified fly. i thought that the other functions of a fly such as eating or flying were simply not mentioned because you were trying to express something specifically regard sitting and standing.

i understand now, my understanding was not correct, my apologies.

i agree that the fly cannot do something it wasnt designed with being able to do. the fly either sits or stands.

i agree that the fly cannot do something it wasnt designed with being able to do. the fly either sits or stands.

reply to post by miriam0566


Okey dokey we are in agreement except it's not a fly it's just an insect, I never mentioned fly, pay attention woman lol.

So the fly can either sit or stand, as it was created to be able do both, whether the fly is sitting or standing is entirly dependant on what the creator has instructed to do.

There is nothing that the fly can do of its' own volition, as this would preclude the creator knowing the outcome. As the creator is omniscient/omnipotent it cannot not know an outcome.

If the fly is initially sitting, it cannot stand without the instruction to stand and the instruction to stand has to come from its' creator, otherwise this would preclude the creator being omniscient/omnipresesnt.


Agree or disagree ?

please, show me one scripture that says god´s love is uncoditional....

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8: 38-39]

If this doesn't convince you of unconditional love, I don't know what will?

It doesn't make sense because it's not real.

I'll say that again.

It doesn't make sense because it's not real.

There can be no facts about hell. It's not real. There can be no contradictions over hell. It's not real. It's all opinion, because IT IS NOT REAL.

Originally posted by jdposey

please, show me one scripture that says god´s love is uncoditional....

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8: 38-39]

If this doesn't convince you of unconditional love, I don't know what will?

It's conditional to individuals, but unconditional to all of humanity as a whole, take that scripture and put it up against.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (Amplified Bible)

9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled):neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

11And such some of you were once. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.

All of humanity can take advantage of Jesus sacrifice, but will they? As verse 11 mentions they used to do those things that would separate them from God's love, put they stopped, they changed.

Romans chapter 8 says everything external, which of coarse is true, but ourselves, the internal what we are able to control (God knows) our lifestyle choices, this can and will separate us from God's love.

Hebrews 10:26-27 (Amplified Bible)

26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
27[There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].... 29How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?

How this relates to hell is that, those us that don't make it, there is no 100% guarantee.....well as God said in the beginning to Adam from dust we are to dust we return. Or non-existence!
Hellfire is a myth originally perpetuated by the Devil when he told Eve she would not die. He grew the myth by implanting the false idea that the soul will never die.

Genesis 3:19 (Amplified Bible)
19In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.

Genesis 3:
4-5 The serpent told the Woman, "You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil."

So who are you going to believe Satan the Devil or God?



[edit on 17-2-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 17-2-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 17-2-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by jdposey

please, show me one scripture that says god´s love is uncoditional....

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 8: 38-39]

If this doesn't convince you of unconditional love, I don't know what will?

besides what blue jay said, notice that the scripture doesnt mention what YOU yourself can do to your relationship with god. it clearly says that OTHER creatures cant separate you but the scripture is missing any mention of you.

logically paul is not saying that nothing can separate you, he´s saying that nothing except you and your actions can separate you.

paul is saying that if you hold firm despite attacks from the devils, he cant steal your prize from you. that doesnt mean you dont have to stand firm

Originally posted by moocowman
Okey dokey we are in agreement except it's not a fly it's just an insect, I never mentioned fly, pay attention woman lol......

So the fly can either sit or stand,

LOL, thanks, i needed that

So the fly can either sit or stand, as it was created to be able do both, whether the fly is sitting or standing is entirly dependant on what the creator has instructed to do.

There is nothing that the fly can do of its' own volition, as this would preclude the creator knowing the outcome. As the creator is omniscient/omnipotent it cannot not know an outcome.

If the fly is initially sitting, it cannot stand without the instruction to stand and the instruction to stand has to come from its' creator, otherwise this would preclude the creator being omniscient/omnipresesnt.

i disagree. you trying to assume that freewill would preclude the creator knowing the outcome.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by moocowman
Okey dokey we are in agreement except it's not a fly it's just an insect, I never mentioned fly, pay attention woman lol......

So the fly can either sit or stand,

LOL, thanks, i needed that

If the fly is initially sitting, it cannot stand without the instruction to stand and the instruction to stand has to come from its' creator, otherwise this would preclude the creator being omniscient/omnipresesnt.

i disagree. you trying to assume that freewill would preclude the creator knowing the outcome.

Sorry Miriam, I'm trying to assume nothing I haven't mentioned free will. I have laid out a very simple yes no scenario bit by bit, based on the premise that the creator of everything that there is cannot, not know something.

In each step of the process, you agreed before moving on to the next step bit by bit, so as to eliminate any misunderstanding .

Thus far you have been in agreement, and it is your own forward thinking logic that has taken you to the place where this scenario (according to you) would preclude the creator of all that there is not knowing an outcome.

You have previously agreed that if the creator of all that there is, cannot not know anything, then it remains so. Unless of course you have changed your mind (woman and all that, I understand lol) and would now disagree to the statement that the creator of all that there is cannot know something.

Agree or disagree ?

If you now disagree, why ?

reply to post by hardcoremusiclover


Hell is a lesser state of conciousness, and as smart as an evil being gets, they will always be lesser than the holy beings, because of this they will always regret, evil cannot exist in the presence of god, so they will never know happiness, maybe 'fun' but not happiness, the torment of hell is the torment of regret and/or the torment of knowing you will never have happiness for eternity, no matter how evil you gotta admit, that would eventually suck.

Originally posted by moocowman
If the fly is initially sitting, it cannot stand without the instruction to stand and the instruction to stand has to come from its' creator, otherwise this would preclude the creator being omniscient/omnipresesnt.

im sorry for misunderstanding this statement. remember that english is not my first language, so im finding myself reading this 3, 4 times to make absolutely sure i understand you.

to the above statement.

i agree

reply to post by miriam0566

remember that english is not my first language, so im finding myself reading this 3, 4 times to make absolutely sure i understand you.

Ha, English is my first language and I have have to read things I've written 10 times to understand what the hell I'm talking about LOL.

Anyhoo Miriam, we're now in total agreement it seems, but we're in agreement on the logic of the insect and the creator of all that there is. Ie you are not agreeing with my assumptions, 1 + 1 = 2 whether we like it or not.


So the question remains, how is it possible for the insect to do something it was not designed to do?

Going by what we've discussed it simply cannot, if it did then that would mean that the creator of all that there is ,does not know something, and as we've agreed it's simply impossible for the creator of all that there is to not know something, unless of course the creator is not omniscient/omnipresent.

We now get to the point where we could try and imagine the insect making a choice to sit or stand. It is clearly created to do both and is currently sitting or standing depending which position it was created in.

In order for the insect to do the opposite of what it's doing, it must have an incentive to do so. But the incentive for it to do so, like everything else has to be created and we've agreed that the creator, is the creator of all that there is, and nothing cannot not be created, by the creator, or this would preclude omniscient s/omnipresence of the creator itself.


Agree or disagree ?