Good question about hell

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Its not possible to hate God, but Ill give it the benefit of the doubt.

My father does. Really. Anything spiritual*, loving, helpful, or kind ... he hates it all. Not only is he vocal about it but his actions make it clear. He hates God.

*note - I said spiritual. He hates organized religion as well but that's different. Anything spiritual - prayer, meditation, talking to God, helping others ...

Do you not think that God cant make a way to reach those bitter hearts??

God is infinite and therefore absolutely He can make things happen in such a way as to touch a persons mind and soul. But that person still has free will to reject Him. And some do.

Really...what is so divine and almighty about that.

God's ways are not our ways. And yes, i've questioned, and still question, what He does. Like the Tsunami for instance. It still bugs the heck out of me.

just got to get this coffee in me

If it's dunk'n donuts then you are required to share! It's ATS rules!
Just teasing.

Originally posted by moocowman
The insect (not a fly lol) cannot act in any way other than how it was designed to act by the creator of all that there is, for if it were to do so then this would mean that the creator of all that there is did not create it, no jump here I hope ?

Are we still agreed on that bit ?

yes we are

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
These are people with issues due to mentality or personal ego and selfish impulsive actions. I never said this was heaven and I never said that ALL MOTHERS on this earth can show an example of this. But take the general mother who is humble and tries to do good....yes, unconditional love will not falter. People learn through others, there are things like that you posted that are lessons to others why to fight impulsive or selfish behaviors. If it was all peaches and cream...we wouldnt be able to value good things.

ok, but, what happens to them?

sure they can be a lesson for others, but what about them. will god continually forgive them and allow them to continue their way of doing things?

Originally posted by badmedia
Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional praise or getting everything you want. It means giving you what you need at the time. Sometimes what people need is a swift kick in the butt.

"giving you what you need" implies that you have a goal.

this is why i think so many people here dont understand what im saying. you all have goals to better yourself, whether its materially or spiritually. i mean the people on this forum by their very nature thirst for knowledge and understand what it is like to really self examine and pick at ourselves.

sometimes people need things to help them achieve the next level.

but im not talking about those people. there are some people that life is not about learning, its not about experiences. its about what they can get out of life. if they want something, they take it, no matter who they have to step on in the way.

and i dont think that many people here have had much experience with those types of people, so what im saying appears judgmental or irrational. and i think that if they did, they would not hold on to this idea that everyone is on this path to enlightenment.

The parent who loves their child does punish the child. Not because the parent wants to harm or hurt the child, but because it is in it's best interest.

yes, but what im talking about is more then punishment. its justice.

remember that i dont hold the belief of hellfire. to me, eternal hellfire is completely unjust. however, sometimes people do need to be held accountable.

a concept like theft is simple. if someone steals something, the just thing to do is give it back. if giving it back is not possible, then giving something of equal or greater value is also acceptable. does the thief simple stand there and say that he learned his lesson, then possibly lie and say he wont do it again? no at all, the thief must pay what he stole back. its more than a simple lesson he is learning, he hurt someone, now he has to make amends.

but then it just gets more extreme. what if someone in the process of a fight destroys another's eye? does he simple say im sorry and walk away?

what if someone kills another?

its like watching a child on the playground. one child hits another child so that he can take the ball. when the parents get involved the one parents says, "you give that ball back or we are going home this instant!" so the child reluctantly gives the ball back.

to say that the child is giving the ball back because he care for the other childs emotions cant be true. if it was, he wouldnt have taken the ball in the first place. the reason he returned the ball was because he didnt want something bad to happen to him (going home, or other possible discipline from parent) did the child actually learn something? yes, dont take other's things or parents will be mad.

it isnt until the child is older that he looks at such situations with more clarity, thinking on how his actions affected the other person. then as they grow older they realize with full impact just what they were doing.

the problem with this conversation is that it is assumed that everyone eventually understands the impact of their actions.

i disagree. i think that some do. and some build a moral foundation for themselves that affects their choices in life.

but i think that most dont . the only reason they arent doing what they really want to do is because the "parents" (government, church, boss etc etc) might discipline them. not because they are worried about how their actions affect others.

if you want proof? go to anyplace in the world where authority is weak. the weaker the authority, the more depravity you will see.

reply to post by benrl


Maybe we are all fallen angels and we just don't know it. The people who go about their business the best they can without causing a problem, well maybe they get back up to heaven.
The other fallen angels who cause the problems stay on earth until they amend their ways. Hey who knows, I don't but this could be a small answer?

Earth is hell ????

Again just an idea I have that is probably full of holes.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by colec156]

reply to post by colec156


I think Earth and hell are one in the same...think about it...we have plenty of gnashings of teeth here and we obviously are or seem to be, separated from Thee/God.

But, I dont see this as a eternal place for souls...I think some way, all find a way to raise their vibrations enough to not be born of the fire/flesh again.

Just thoughts

LV

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
These are people with issues due to mentality or personal ego and selfish impulsive actions. I never said this was heaven and I never said that ALL MOTHERS on this earth can show an example of this. But take the general mother who is humble and tries to do good....yes, unconditional love will not falter. People learn through others, there are things like that you posted that are lessons to others why to fight impulsive or selfish behaviors. If it was all peaches and cream...we wouldnt be able to value good things.

ok, but, what happens to them?

sure they can be a lesson for others, but what about them. will god continually forgive them and allow them to continue their way of doing things?

Its not about God forgiven them. When one leaves the flesh, the divine essence rules there, the life or your wrongs or rights are obvious to you. One sees how the enviroment shaped them and where their failures could of been stepping stones. The function of love comes in not by a choice of God that he forgives, but how the path is laid to where the soul can relearn, having another path that will aid them learning from like a cause and effect.

I think we relearn, and try again....the ones that are not interested in learning anything are of lower vibrations and provide a negative stimulus possible to others, not so much for themselves...some that may be very high in vibration can come to aid with a specific roll and those who offer themselves to come in aid come out of love for the others, because we are all tied into Thee. Doing the will that none shall be lost, you wouldnt think souls would come back by choice, but it becomes a function of Thee One, and the Law of all light shall return. I watched my mother relearning things, and she told me also that there were some things she wasnt allowed to tell me also and she did not dare try to do so. She was told she had things to work on. I believe there was a place that if she would of laid down instead of exploring, she would of automatically been reincarnated. But her heart was curious and sure....she felt safe.

She talked of seeing what seemed to be her in another life in the time of Pilate and Jesus. The funny thing is about that...she has had dreams of this before her experience, of her living in the time of Pilate and Jesus.

I probably wouldn't have such sure feelings about what I think if it wasn't for alot of what I saw her experiencing.

She saw people that could enter the gate, but some couldnt. This also to me says that we are reborn. Some would say, well they are waiting to be judge, but it seemed that mother judge herself, any actions of hers and actions of others in her life was obvious to her, like she was seeing her life through divine eyes. She said, we relearn everything.

That might not be enough for others to go on, and I understand. But I find it amazing.

LV

[edit on 19-2-2009 by LeoVirgo]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Its not possible to hate God, but Ill give it the benefit of the doubt.

My father does. Really. Anything spiritual*, loving, helpful, or kind ... he hates it all. Not only is he vocal about it but his actions make it clear. He hates God.

*note - I said spiritual. He hates organized religion as well but that's different. Anything spiritual - prayer, meditation, talking to God, helping others ...

Do you not think that God cant make a way to reach those bitter hearts??

God is infinite and therefore absolutely He can make things happen in such a way as to touch a persons mind and soul. But that person still has free will to reject Him. And some do.

Really...what is so divine and almighty about that.

God's ways are not our ways. And yes, i've questioned, and still question, what He does. Like the Tsunami for instance. It still bugs the heck out of me.

just got to get this coffee in me

If it's dunk'n donuts then you are required to share! It's ATS rules!
Just teasing.

When your father leaves his flesh...he wont see with the eyes of flesh...when in the divine presence, its not a choice...one relearns of the essence that they are a part of. There is no free will to reject Thee in the essence of Thee because you are a prt of Thee...you would be rejecting yourself, your own essence of you...and you then realize how the environment or darkness shaped you to be bitter, prideful, selfish, greedy, ect....and another path is laid for you to learn or aid another in learning. The negative is more a lessons for others in the moment....providing the yin and the yang for others, like tolerance, patients, grace and humbleness. Its a true test when one is around those who are of the negative to be the positive and remain righteous towards them.

Things like natures wrath help us learn how this all is a function and its a order...not chaos as we perceive. The Earth has to cycle her elements that make her Earth...the wind conflicts with other elements sometimes, but sometimes, they work together to form and create....I see Thee/God works the same way...a function of recycling. The negative things are a part of the order and cycle...nothing more, nothing less. We learn through catalysts if we allow the opportunity at hand to allow that...or we can allow the opportunity to make us greedy and bitter or full of ego ect.

Just thoughts, as always,
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


There is a book "embraced by the light" by Betty Eadie, where as the auther writes about her NDE. Here too she 'judges herself' and many things parallel what you have given above. The law of probability gives many different 'paths' for the countles of souls that came from First Light. And to think that First Light experiences them all! Kind of makes you realize just how unimportant one can possibly feel like, yet First Light loves each as if they are the only one... But this is just my being and will not intrude/impose on anyone!
I do suggest getting rid of hate cause that really keeps one in 'hell'


[edit on 19-2-2009 by constantine70]

reply to post by constantine70


Wow, very interesting about this other NDE. Thanks for sharing that info. I have viewed other videos about people seeing they were in a room and told they still had things to work on, which was another similarity my mother had. The time of her seeing herself in others lives and seeing others in her life came before the room where she was told by a being (to her, this was Michael) that she had things to work on. Ive heard some see a woman in the room instead of a male figure. Mabey we see what we are comfortable with...at first.

Others NDE are really interesting to me, been researching them alot lately.

reply to post by miriam0566


Forgive them, for they know not what they do.....


Now how humble is that? How loving is that? Even when the life of Christ was being taken, he didnt fight back or seek to kill for the defense of his flesh....WHY?? Its not about sins and blood...its about....not allowing the darkness in others to tempt you to become unrighteous in return.

Its not a eye for a eye, it is turn the other cheek and other them the other.

So many couldn't accept such ways then, and still cant now.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I think we relearn, and try again....the ones that are not interested in learning anything are of lower vibrations and provide a negative stimulus possible to others, not so much for themselves...some that may be very high in vibration can come to aid with a specific roll and those who offer themselves to come in aid come out of love for the others,

there are several things i want to note. but im going to give you my opinion from 2 different angles.

- if we are talking about your personal beliefs...

i think its an interesting belief, but i dont agree completely. if people were learning, and growing, even if over generations, then the world would gradually get better right?

why is it getting worse? and why are the atrocities becoming more extreme? i just dont see how anyone cansay that we are learning.

- if we are talking about what the bible says on this subject (the thread is about hell), i would say that the bible doesnt agree with you. people make choices and the bible says you have to be accountable for those choices. adam was told he would die (not be reincarnated) if he ate from the tree. he ate from the tree. he died. eccl says that the dead do not think. psalms says their their thoughts perish. it really is that simple, sin=death. we arent imperfect because we are learning, in fact now can become perfect by will alone.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Forgive them, for they know not what they do.....


Now how humble is that? How loving is that? Even when the life of Christ was being taken, he didnt fight back or seek to kill for the defense of his flesh....WHY?? Its not about sins and blood...its about....not allowing the darkness in others to tempt you to become unrighteous in return.

Its not a eye for a eye, it is turn the other cheek and other them the other.

So many couldn't accept such ways then, and still cant now.

hold on, because your not actually reading the scripture. jesus is saying to forgive them, but he is also giving a reason.

do you really think that if the roman soldiers who were crucifying him knew they were killing the son of god, that jesus would have said the same thing?

even pilot didnt understand the full gravity of what he was doing. its sinning in ignorance, so no in the case its not eye for an eye.

for the pharisees who put him up for death, it was a different story. they witnessed his teachings and how versed he was with the law (the closest they could come to saying that he broke the law was with the sabbath, and even then jesus used the law to silence them). they saw his miracles witnessing him heal and even resurrect, instead they claimed his power came from satan and not god (a sin against the holy spirit). there was no doubt to them that this man was the messiah, and yet they still lied and put him to death.

jesus didnt ask god to forgive them. they would be held accountable

Originally posted by hardcoremusiclover
We all know that heaven is reward for embracing God.

But if your a terrible evil person, then why would you be tortured in hell? Wouldn't the devil want to embrace you? Reward you for being such an evil person? I dont get it?

Did I miss something? Wouldn't evil souls get along and plot against God instead of just torture each other?

LMAO! Classic!

Simple logic totally annihilates the nonesense scare-mongering of organised Abrahamic religion in a couple of short paragraphs.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I think we relearn, and try again....the ones that are not interested in learning anything are of lower vibrations and provide a negative stimulus possible to others, not so much for themselves...some that may be very high in vibration can come to aid with a specific roll and those who offer themselves to come in aid come out of love for the others,

there are several things i want to note. but im going to give you my opinion from 2 different angles.

- if we are talking about your personal beliefs...

i think its an interesting belief, but i dont agree completely. if people were learning, and growing, even if over generations, then the world would gradually get better right?

why is it getting worse? and why are the atrocities becoming more extreme? i just dont see how anyone cansay that we are learning.

- if we are talking about what the bible says on this subject (the thread is about hell), i would say that the bible doesnt agree with you. people make choices and the bible says you have to be accountable for those choices. adam was told he would die (not be reincarnated) if he ate from the tree. he ate from the tree. he died. eccl says that the dead do not think. psalms says their their thoughts perish. it really is that simple, sin=death. we arent imperfect because we are learning, in fact now can become perfect by will alone.

Every ones belief should be personal to them...

Adam's death is describing the moment of spirit descending into matter from former cause/substance/Aeon/Age (IMPO). Adam and Eve's story reflects the alchemy of matter and life (spirit) mixing. We Adam's experience physical death of what we see and know as life....experiencing the tree of knowledge, which is a yin and yang. The negative serves a purpose for the good to shine forth from.

Just as though, IF Jesus had to come as a sacrifice for sins....the negative was needed to bring forth the plan. The plan could not of came forth unless there was the negative that killed Jesus, for us to see and learn from the action of both sides...the unrighteous action and the righteous action.

When I spoke of an eye for an eye...I was not meaning that this is why Jesus was killed...but why Jesus did not act in wrath when his life of flesh was threatened....this is not the life we are to strive for or fight for. Jesus, turned his cheek, and allowed light to shine in a very dark place. He brought faith in remaining righteous when the darkness (environment/matter) is against your spirit...keeping the spirit unblemished.

Some things have gotten better....there are many great people that have changed the thoughts of thousands of people to be more humble about not feeling special because of a religion, race or culture. But like I said, this is not nor is meant to be Utopia....this is a material world and will always be based on the law of cause and effect. The law of cause and effect never end...we do judge ourselves when in the divine essence and there is an effect of the causes from our life...but I just dont believe that the effect is ever eternal damnation.

Life in the flesh is not all going wrong or bad. There are great things happening here right now I believe. I wouldn't call it an ending or whatever, but yet another marker for vibrations changing. There will be left over material of mater and essence of spirit that does not return and a new emanation/age will result from this. If it was all supposed to evolve into Utopia here, then the 'few will be chosen' idea doesnt work. But this is what is said, only few are chosen....so mabey its not supposed to get better here in the idea of what you would call 'better'.....but yet this is only a temporary place for the spirit learning about cause and effect...mind over matter....and the cycling of everything. Mabey its more about learning how Thee functions through cycles more then anything. I mean really, cycling isnt about, well I have secound chances, so I guess it doesnt really matter what I do. If you really believe in recycling, it scares the heck out of most the very thought of coming to Earth (the gnashings of teeth) again.

AS ALWAYS.... just sharing personal view points

LV

[edit on 20-2-2009 by LeoVirgo]

It basically come down to this, you have nothing to worry about.

If you go to heaven, you will have nothing to worry about.

If you go to hell...you'll be too busy shaking hands with all your friends to worry about anything!

reply to post by hardcoremusiclover


i'm pretty sure it's because we were created in His image(that alone would be reason enough for Satan to hate people). it wouldn't surprise me if Satan was jealous of us in that case as well.

No, Satan will not embrace you because you have been created in the image of God. He despises God and therefore despises you (and me).

Originally posted by colec156
Earth is hell ????

Earth is part of hell, not all of it.

Christ!

Originally posted by doer_of_deeds
No, Satan will not embrace you because you have been created in the image of God. He despises God and therefore despises you (and me).

Man is not created in the image of GoD.
Christ is created equal to GoD, like from like.

If man is not created in the image of GoD, in whose image is man made?


Christ!