Michael Phelps, hypocrisy and American Drug Policy

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by ExistenceUnknown

 

It's just like this: "studies" (what a joke) on drug abuse/use are completely unreliable. Whoever is making these studies are not getting accurate results. The very few drug users/abusers who would even consider taking part in such a "study" -- lol -- aren't going to give accurate details, even anonymously.

Pot is a mood-altering substance. The worst case scenario and it is the most common is adolescents who smoke it from the age of 13 or 14 and keep smoking it thru teen years; they don't experience going from teen to adult in a normal healthy way, incur problems adjusting to adulthood.

UCLA, Harvard, University of Saskatchewan, University of Rostock, and the US Government aren't getting accurate results... but you are? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Your problem with children, by the way, is a problem through prohibition, and it would be greatly curtailed by legalization. As it stands now, the way to obtain cannabis is through the black market. The black market doesn't care how old you are, how dumb you are... they care about if you give them the money for the product. If cannabis were legalized, the black market would be eliminated and the sale of cannabis could be regulated similarly to alcohol and tobacco, which as we know wouldn't erase the problem of youths smoking cannabis completely since there are IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE (back to that personal responsibility thing again) who would purchase the cannabis for the kids, like they do with alcohol and tobacco.

But legalization would be safer for children compared to the model we are currently under.

I can post plenty of studies myself but not going to get into all that, well maybe one:

"New research confirms that marijuana is a gateway drug for most teens who use it.

Some will tell you marijuana is a harmless drug, but the Journal of the American Medical Association isn't one of them.

Young people who smoke marijuana are two to five times more likely to move on to harder drugs. That is the formal opinion of researchers, who published their conclusions from a recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)."

www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

I could post hundreds of similar articles.

Let me conclude by saying drug use is drug use is drug use. Yeah it feels good --- for awhile --- then you reach a point after continued use that you HAVE to smoke it just to be able to enjoy anything, and there's nothing good about that. If drug use were a good healthy thing we'd all be potheads but someone has to run things.

Originally posted by Bombeni
I can post plenty of studies myself but not going to get into all that, well maybe one:

"New research confirms that marijuana is a gateway drug for most teens who use it.

Some will tell you marijuana is a harmless drug, but the Journal of the American Medical Association isn't one of them.

Young people who smoke marijuana are two to five times more likely to move on to harder drugs. That is the formal opinion of researchers, who published their conclusions from a recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)."

www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

I could post hundreds of similar articles.

Let me conclude by saying drug use is drug use is drug use. Yeah it feels good --- for awhile --- then you reach a point after continued use that you HAVE to smoke it just to be able to enjoy anything, and there's nothing good about that. .

Look where you got your information.

www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

gee, I wonder what they're going to say about cannabis?

Try finding an impartial study... like from UCLA, Harvard, University of Sasketchewan, University of Rostock.. etc etc... I could post 10,000 things that the NORML website says about cannabis but that is useless because I am aware of the importance of an impartial study, you apparently, are not. (Man I would hate to be at whatever institution you educate at)

If drug use were a good healthy thing we'd all be potheads but someone has to run things

LOL, Yeah... like the last three presidents (at least), and the first few?


George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Bill Clinton, George Bush, Obama... they all smoked.

You need a better argument.

Smoking marijuana doesn't instill some odd desire to use other drugs. That's just silly to think that. Whenever the anti-mj crowd gets beaten into a corner, their first resort is always to try and make examples out of marijuana abusers and paint them as the typical marijuana user.

When the bad logic in that argument is beaten, they move on to the whole "gateway drug" argument. It still fails, folks. You aren't looking into why marijuana is a gateway drug.

Think about it... why isn't tobacco called a "gateway drug?" Or caffeine? They have addictive properties and introduce people to the experience of being "under the influence" of their effects. What about alcohol? Surely the biggest party drug of all time is a gateway drug? What, it's not one? Hmm.

There must be something else that causes marijuana to be a "gateway drug." Oh, I know what it is... political motivation! Oops, no, that's not what I meant to say. It's criminalization that makes it a gateway drug. Drug users will sell anything to anyone. People get marijuana from the same folks who also want them to buy coc aine or heroin from.

If you legalize marijuana, users will no longer have to get it from the "dealers." They'd get it from tobacco shops, pharmacies, or whoever was designated as the legal seller. And if the marijuana users aren't in regular contact with drug dealers, guess what?

"Gateway drug," your last failing argument, goes right out the window.

Originally posted by Bombeni
I can post plenty of studies myself but not going to get into all that, well maybe one:

"New research confirms that marijuana is a gateway drug for most teens who use it.

Some will tell you marijuana is a harmless drug, but the Journal of the American Medical Association isn't one of them.

Young people who smoke marijuana are two to five times more likely to move on to harder drugs. That is the formal opinion of researchers, who published their conclusions from a recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)."

www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

9 out of 10 coc aine addicts have tried pot before they moved on to coc aine. 10 out of 10 have tried alcohol. 10 out of 10 have tried milk.

"More than 100 million Americans have tried marijuana; 14.4 million Americans are estimated to be "past-month" users. Yet there are only an estimated 2,075,000 "past-month" users of coc aine and 153,000 "past-month" users of heroin."
Source:
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Results from the 2007 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: National Findings (Office of Applied Studies, NSDUH Series H-34, DHHS Publication No. SMA 08-4343), Rockville, MD, Sept. 2008, p. 250, Table G.1, and p. 254, Table G.5.

Marijuana is the most common of illegal drugs. You'll find a lot of cab drivers smoking pot when they get home. Does marijuana use lead to becoming a cab driver?

The ONLY reason that anyone would be more likley to use other drugs is because dealers often sell more than one thing and all prohibition does is make sure that hard AND soft drugs are sold together.

The whole thinking behind the coffeeshop system in Holland is to keep hard drugs away from people who only want a soft substance to use. Amazing that alcohol is actually a hard drug considering effects and disease and death, but yet cannabis , which never causes death or illness and is NOT addictive ( according to actual medical research), happen so be sold along with other drugs because of the idiocy of PROHIBITION.

There is NO chemical in cannabis that promotes dependence...none. It is NOT physically addicting, and no more psychologically addicting than gambling or porn or religious extremism. The opponents of cannabis can NEVER point to a definitive, scientific study, one NOT funded buy some partial party, that gives us good reason to arrest and lock up human beings for using such a plant.

It is beyond insane. Once you have educated the people about how it came to be banned back in '38, unless they are brain dead Calvina Fay clones,they MUST admit that prohibition is ridiculous. How can anyone say with a straight face that drug policy works? It staggers the sound mind to realize that so many people just robotly mouth the DEA lies over and over again....sad, isn't it? I pity them.

Wow, I was going to post a good counter argument for Bombeni but it appears that many have already beat me to the punch. I think it's safe to say that those who are for marijuana legalization or the very minimum of decriminalization have the facts on their side. No amount of reason or logic is going to prove to someone who refuses to read a study from a neutral party. Bombeni please read some of the numerous studies linked by Imanutter, or the thousands of other studies that are a google search away. They can't ALL be wrong can they? Or better yet why don't the people who are against marijuana just come up with a better argument than "it's bad for you". Last time I checked this was supposed to be a free country and as long as what I do in the privacy of my own home doesn't harm anyone I should be allowed to do it.

Look at this recent study. This is hysterical:

Alcohol and cannabis use as risk factors for injury

Results

Alcohol use in the six hours prior to injury was associated with a relative risk of 3.00 (C.I.: 1.78, 5.04) compared with no alcohol use, a dose-response relationship also was found. Cannabis use was inversely related to risk of injury (RR: 0.33; C.I.: 0.12, 0.92), also in a dose-response like manner. However, the sample size for people who had used cannabis was small. Simultaneous use of alcohol and cannabis did not show significantly elevated risk.

Conclusions
The most surprising result of our study was the inverse relationship between cannabis use and injury. Possible explanations and underlying mechanisms, such as use in safer environments or more compensatory behavior among cannabis users, were discussed.

www.biomedcentral.com...

Wow...


I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. For such a controversial subject it appears we at ATS have been able to discuss and debate it very heatedly without, from what I can tell, violating any Terms and Conditions of ATS.


Congrats to all for having a discussion that we have been needing to have for a long time and doing so in a civilized and legal manner.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


It's amazing that didn't go out the window when I jumped in. I have a short fuse. :-p

But seriously, it is good that we can have such a discussion without name calling and bickering. I do have one complaint, though.

Like one of the posters above just stated, I really do urge the anti-marijuana debaters to read some of the studies. Even if you don't believe them, even if you know you won't change your mind, even if you think it's a waste of time, please, please, please read the studies so you at least have more of an understanding of where we're coming from with our arguments.

Originally posted by ExistenceUnknown
Wow, I was going to post a good counter argument for Bombeni but it appears that many have already beat me to the punch. I think it's safe to say that those who are for marijuana legalization or the very minimum of decriminalization have the facts on their side. No amount of reason or logic is going to prove to someone who refuses to read a study from a neutral party. Bombeni please read some of the numerous studies linked by Imanutter, or the thousands of other studies that are a google search away. They can't ALL be wrong can they? Or better yet why don't the people who are against marijuana just come up with a better argument than "it's bad for you". Last time I checked this was supposed to be a free country and as long as what I do in the privacy of my own home doesn't harm anyone I should be allowed to do it.

I have read many of these reports you mention. I can show you more reports that document the ill effects of chronic marijuana use. "They can't all be wrong can they?"

I don't disagree that marijuana has value as a medicine for people with illnesses which hamper their appetites; marijuana gives you the munchies and if it helps cancer patients be able to eat then it should be prescribed by a doctor. I'm referring to the continued regular use of marijuana. Teens who use it regularly don't experience the step from adolescence to adulthood in a normal healthy manner; it isn't good for teens to be stoned during this transition, they don't emerge with the same coping skills that a teen who went thru that period with a clear mind does. Of course that is true of any regular use of mind-altering substances during this period. These are the facts, like it or not.

I do think it's ludicrous that alcohol is legal but pot isn't. In that view I suppose pot should be legalized. But legal or not, there are ill effects from regular pot use just as there are for regular alcohol use or any other mind-altering drug. If you don't believe that then you are fooling yourself.

reply to post by Reddupo


So basically what they are saying in the study is that Marijuana has the opposite effect? Yet they still say that Cannabis contributes to injury?

reply to post by Bombeni


Bombeni, no one is advocating that it should be legal for teens. That would be insane. What we are advocating is that we take it out of the hands of dealers who will readily sell ANY drug to a 10 year old and put it in the hands of responsible people who will not sell to someone under the age of 18 or 21. What I dont understand is how we have a whole history of prohibition and how it failed and yet people still cry out that they should be illegal. It is proven, by our own history, that making substances illegal only makes things worse. Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, and for god's sake stop putting people in jail for non-violent crimes.

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown

The report studies how much cannabis and alcohol add to the risk of being injured. The report concluded that people under the influence of cannabis were significantly less likely to be injured than people under the influence of alcohol AND less likely to be injured than sober people.

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


So what age do you think is appropriate for a person to use marijuana for the first time? Whatever age you indicate, would you please state why you think that is the appropriate age? Thanks.

BTW I completely agree about the jail thing. It has always burned me up that people can go into a club and get sopping drunk legally but get caught with a joint and it's off to jail.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Bombeni


Well, I would personally go with the age we use for Alcohol, so 21. But I think ultimately it should be left up to the states to decide what age is appropriate.

The reason I choose 21 is because we already enforce this age limit on alcohol. If it was proven (which I haven't seen yet) to damage the developing mind perhaps we should consider moving all substances to 25, since that is the time in which the brain stops developing.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by ExistenceUnknown]

reply to post by Reddupo


Ah ok I see it now, I misread the title of the study. I thought the title implied that alcohol and cannabis both contribute to injury.

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Reproductive System males and females
Marijuana use can decrease and degenerate sperm, sperm count, movement, and cause lowered sex drive. Females can have egg damage, suppression of ovulation, disrupt menstrual cycles, and alteration of hormone levels.
Regular use during pregnancy can lower birth weight and cause abnormalities similar to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (small head, irritability, poor growth and development.
Can destroy the number of chromosomes, resulting in cell abnormalities and impaired function.
Other affects on the central nervous system
distortions of perceptions, thinking and reality
Difficulty in forming concepts and thoughts
Poor concentration
Mental confusion
Loss of motivation
Wide mood swings
Aggression and hostility
Depression, anxiety and paranoia
www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

I'm not the pot police and don't "hate" pot users. That's just silly. The fact is some things that feel good aren't good for you. The whole problem with pot is that almost everyone who uses it starts at a very young age, and many of them become chronic pot users. Pot becomes an emotional crutch. Pot keeps people from reaching their full potential, to name only a few ill effects. But if the individual is ok with it then whatever. I just wanted to make the case that pot is a mind-altering drug and has the many downsides as all mind-altering substances do on the human body. There's no free lunch.

Originally posted by Bombeni
The harmful effects of marijuana on the Reproductive System males and females
Marijuana use can decrease and degenerate sperm, sperm count, movement, and cause lowered sex drive. Females can have egg damage, suppression of ovulation, disrupt menstrual cycles, and alteration of hormone levels.
Regular use during pregnancy can lower birth weight and cause abnormalities similar to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (small head, irritability, poor growth and development.
Can destroy the number of chromosomes, resulting in cell abnormalities and impaired function.
Other affects on the central nervous system
distortions of perceptions, thinking and reality
Difficulty in forming concepts and thoughts
Poor concentration
Mental confusion
Loss of motivation
Wide mood swings
Aggression and hostility
Depression, anxiety and paranoia
www.marijuanaaddiction.info...

I'm not the pot police and don't "hate" pot users. That's just silly. The fact is some things that feel good aren't good for you. The whole problem with pot is that almost everyone who uses it starts at a very young age, and many of them become chronic pot users. Pot becomes an emotional crutch. Pot keeps people from reaching their full potential, to name only a few ill effects. But if the individual is ok with it then whatever. I just wanted to make the case that pot is a mind-altering drug and has the many downsides as all mind-altering substances do on the human body. There's no free lunch.

What baffles the living daylights out of me... is how you accept that study as fact.... from an anti-cannabis site... with absolutely no reference as to where the information came from, who performed the studies, or how the study was performed.

But you disregard studies done by PhD's, with their names on it, from Universities... such as UCLA, Harvard, University of Saskatchewan, University of Rostock, and the US Government...?

Would you please take a couple seconds and just explain your logic to me?

You ignore the work of major universities and think they are skewed... but you post tripe from an anti-cannabis site, with no source... and take that to heart?

(Not to mention that in the 21 studies, and a few extra that surfaced in the thread since then... PhD's have PROVEN that the majority of what you posted is propaganda)


[edit on 18-2-2009 by ImaNutter]

reply to post by Bombeni


I'm going to give you a brief lesson on citing legitimate sources..

The following exerts are copy and pasted, with no editing, directly from a report commissioned by Richard M. Nixon. The report was titled "Marijuana, A Signal of Misunderstanding." It was carried out by Republican Raymond P. Shaffer. What is overwhelmingly important about this report, is that Richard M. Nixon was hoping to find ammunition for his War on Drugs, and it indeed backfired. It only offered evidence in direct contradiction with Richard M. Nixon's stance on Cannabis. It is, to date, the most thorough investigation of Cannabis and Cannabis use in American society ever carried out by the United States government.

Exert #1:

No significant physical, biochemical, or mental abnormalities could be attributed solely to their marihuana smoking.

Exert #2:

In the Jamaican study, no significant physical or mental abnormalities could be attributed to marihuana use, according to an evaluation of medical history, complete physical examination, chest x-ray, electrocardiogram, blood cell and chemistry tests, lung, liver or kidney function tests, selected hormone evaluation, brain waves, psychiatric evaluation, and psychological testing.

Exert #3:

Recent studies suggest that the occurrence of any form of psychosis in heavy cannabis users is no higher than in the general population.

Exert #4:

We have carefully analyzed the interrelationship between marihuana the drug, marihuana use as a behavior, and marihuana as a social problem. Recognizing the extensive degree of misinformation about marihuana as a drug, we have tried to demythologize it. Viewing the use of marihuana in its wider social context, we have tried to desymbolize it.

Considering the range of social concerns in contemporary America, marihuana does not, in our considered judgment, rank very high. We would deemphasize marihuana as a problem.

The existing social and legal policy is out of proportion to the individual and social harm engendered by the use of the drug.

These exerts are only a few of the many that can be found in "Marihuana, A Signal of Misunderstanding," which was commissioned by President Richard M. Nixon in March of 1972. The report can be read in its entirety here: Marihuana, A Signal of Misunderstanding

It is also very important to note that this study was commissioned and carried out by the same United States Government that fights today to demonize and imprison cannabis users, in direct contradiction of the findings. The only thing that makes sense about Cannabis Prohibition and the decision to continue the War on Drugs (most notably Cannabis), is that it doesn't make any sense.


[edit on 18-2-2009 by ImaNutter]