I Think the Rapture has happened

I will say this about Paul. I don't know if he's a false teacher or not, but I did read the NT, mind you only once, but I do remember being a little confused while reading parts of Paul's letters because certain parts seemed to contradict Jesus and at times, he contradicted himself in the same letter. Since I only read through it once, I only remember how I felt and not specifically which parts they were. Maybe I was misinterpreting him. Perhaps badmedia could point out specific parts since he may recall them better than me.

The only time I can remember content was in one of his letters, he went into great convincing detail about how we shouldn't follow the law because following the law doesn't get you into heaven and that the law was only put there to show us what sinners we are and how much we need to be saved, but later in the same letter, he says we have to follow the law? I don't remember which letter that was in, but it was awfully confusing to me. It's like, wait, what?! Paul was confusing to me at times, but maybe that was just me misinterpreting.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Okay ....have you not said many times in many posts that the Church is of satan ? And that Christians are killers ..(holding what a few did in his name on everyone who are Christians) ...and that Paul is a liar and a false teacher ?And that he spoke contrary to Jesus (which he did not ...you are misinterpreting him) ................
All after you tell all of us how that the Holy Spirit taught you ....did the Holy Spirit tell you these things or not ?
If not then who did ? If you are filled with the Holy Spirit of God of which was the same Holy Spirit of who called PAUL personally ...then it cannot be the same Holy Spirit ..............

I was not taught in absolutes. I was not told to believe certain things and so on. I was instead given understanding so that I can see it for myself. Because in this way, once you have understanding then you are able to apply it to everything, not just the specific things told.

For example, I was not specifically told to follow the Path of Jesus, nor was I specifically told that is the path. Instead, I was shown to be the change, and upon examining what change I would need to be in order to live in a peaceful and heavenly society I found the path. And that is the same path as Jesus. Before I heard the bible, and the way Jesus talked about love thy neighbor as thyself, I explained it as to not infringe on another beings free will. That when you infringe on another persons free will, you were then allowing and saying it is ok for your will to be infringed on. And of course, if you truly love something then you will set it free. And because I love everyone as myself, I seek to free them as well, to whatever extent is possible for me to. By being this change, you are walking the path.

This is how I was taught. And from my teachings I see Jesus telling people exactly what I learned, and I see Paul doing things that go against what I learned.

I learned not to focus on the idol, but the message or things it actually stands for instead. And this was not just for religion, this is for all things. And I see Paul doing the opposite. I see Paul praising and building up an idol in place of the message. To get people to worship the idol, instead of the message.

The actions of the church after simply show me exactly why it is a bad idea and the broad and destructive path which seems right, but isn't. Jesus is the example of what to follow, and Paul and the church are examples to me of what not to do, and why it is bad.

reply to post by Kratos1220


[quote/]I only remember how I felt

This is a real clue as to discovering what is right and what feels wrong! I wrote a thread on Paul here that may interest you (and not just the OP) but throughout the thread, I and others pointed out discrepancies about him.

I have done a lot of research as others have. He most definitely was NOT who he appeared to be. This is a case of going with our senses and not the majority.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


i don't know, did you maybe read my op? We are the forsaken, we are the sinners and evilouse men whom must exist in gods plan but get no salvation.

Did not the lord create the world? did not he create all things? make all plans and balance all scales? Is this not the lords doing?

Did not the lord want man to eat the appl?, one so wise, all knowing -would he not have known when he created man that he would eat the apple? Did not he make a world of giants and sin so Noah would witness it's destruction? Did not he create his son who's purpose was nothing but to die in front of us? The lord has created us, slaves to our vices and his chosen few were to be wary of us, to not give in to us and to learn from our self damnation - did the lord god not say to his people, "you are my people"? Did the lord god not say to us, you are damned?

When god was showering blessings upon his people were not we alone and hungry? When god gave Moses the commandments were not my great grandparents enjoying a productive late bronze age full of gods and idols? why didn't he tell everyone his law?

We were not his chosen people, we were never going to heaven - we were created to enjoy sin, now the chosen people have been taken sin is all we have!

We must accept gods gift, he wanted us to enjoy sin and enjoy sin i do!

Badmedia ...you and Matrix Prophet ..you can say all you want about Paul ..
But there are those of us who are reading your posts who sees the same thing in you both that you accuse Paul of ..
Most of your views are contrary to not only Jesus teachings but also Johns and Lukes .And of course Pauls too ...

reply to post by NatureBoy


Natureboy ..no one has been taken anywhere yet ...Everyone is still here including the chosen of Israel (the literal Jewish peoples and the spiritual children of God) ...
The tribulation (the terrible great tribulation ) has not happened yet ..
Everything that is supposed to happen during that time period has not yet happened ...I do believe we are right on the brink of it happening though .

Originally posted by Kratos1220
I will say this about Paul. I don't know if he's a false teacher or not, but I did read the NT, mind you only once, but I do remember being a little confused while reading parts of Paul's letters because certain parts seemed to contradict Jesus and at times, he contradicted himself in the same letter. Since I only read through it once, I only remember how I felt and not specifically which parts they were. Maybe I was misinterpreting him. Perhaps badmedia could point out specific parts since he may recall them better than me.

The only time I can remember content was in one of his letters, he went into great convincing detail about how we shouldn't follow the law because following the law doesn't get you into heaven and that the law was only put there to show us what sinners we are and how much we need to be saved, but later in the same letter, he says we have to follow the law? I don't remember which letter that was in, but it was awfully confusing to me. It's like, wait, what?! Paul was confusing to me at times, but maybe that was just me misinterpreting.

It's a huge topic in itself and has been discussed here in extremely long threads.

The general perspective of Paul and the church is that Jesus fulfilled the law so they don't have to. They view Jesus as a sacrifice for their sins. That because Jesus lived a sinless life, they are saved by believing in him. It is by the grace of Jesus that they are saved. They carrying around a physical cross many times(simplynoone says she doesn't), which is a symbol of the tool used to kill him, and they see that as a symbol of his great sacrifice.

I believe this sacrificial view to be the view of Satan. And so I call this the church of Satan. Jesus represents a sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie and powers of this world can live. The pharisees who had Jesus killed did so because he threatened their power. He had to die in order for them to keep their power and control.

The true grace of Jesus was that he came here in the first place, when he did not have to. He knew what would happen to him, but he came to show man how to live in ordinance with the commandments of the father. By fulfilling them, he brings understanding of them so that men can see the truth. So that you can walk the path yourself and follow the commandments as he did. So that if you truly believe, maybe you too would follow him and walk the path and by walking the path you are saved. Jesus makes numerous mentions of how important it is to walk the path and follow the laws of the father, and directly says if you believe you will do this. He likens those who don't walk the path as fools. And specifically warns of those who give lip service but do not walk the path.

While they find their salvation in his death, I find mine in his life.

Paul does many things that are against Jesus. Jesus refused to become physical king and such, but Paul talks and builds governments(politician). Jesus says do not make leaders of yourself, because there is only 1 master. Paul creates a heirarchy of leaders, and says these are the leaders. apostles, prophets and so on.

Even the disciples doubted Paul. And yet, did you know that Pauls writings make up nearly 50% of the entire NT? That is as much as the words of Jesus and the 12 disciples combined. Who are these people actually following? Jesus or Paul?

reply to post by NatureBoy

We were not his chosen people, we were never going to heaven - we were created to enjoy sin, now the chosen people have been taken sin is all we have!

We must accept gods gift, he wanted us to enjoy sin and enjoy sin i do!

You are assuming that the Christians are correct in that many have already been taken. This is false. They will see eventually, when none of it happens, that they have been wrong all along.

My take is different than yours on God and your understanding of the Bible and the apple: Is God Misunderstood? (Or Gods) This may help open your eyes to another option than what the others are saying.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Badmedia ...you and Matrix Prophet ..you can say all you want about Paul ..
But there are those of us who are reading your posts who sees the same thing in you both that you accuse Paul of ..
Most of your views are contrary to not only Jesus teachings but also Johns and Lukes .And of course Pauls too ...

Really? I do the same things Paul does huh? Tell me, where am I trying to establish government? Where am I trying to establish a heirarchy of powers on earth?

And lets suppose you are right. If I am actually doing the same thing as Paul, and you think I am wrong for doing it, then what does that say of Paul?

reply to post by Simplynoone

Badmedia ...you and Matrix Prophet ..you can say all you want about Paul ..
But there are those of us who are reading your posts who sees the same thing in you both that you accuse Paul of ..
Most of your views are contrary to not only Jesus teachings but also Johns and Lukes .And of course Pauls too ...

Yes, we understand that you are not getting what we are saying. That's okay as there are many who DO want to hear what we are being told to share.

You are not understanding the whole concept of the Bible and its problem with authorship. Jesus could come down and tell you himself that he has problems with it, and you would put him through a 3rd degree in qualifying him.

A person who is searching must have ears that "hear" and eyes that "see." No amount of convincing will do that for you. It takes a divine intervention to make an imprint. So this message is not for you or anyone who is not ready to hear and is not searching, and may never be!

This is why I do not spend much effort in these threads. I don't need to convince anyone of anything! I just share what I need to and then move on. But you all keep asking the same questions over and over, yet, never get the sense of what is being said. It is the great difference in being religious verses being spiritual. You don't have spiritual senses that tell you something is wrong with Paul and aspects of the Bible. It is not for me to change you, only God can do that.

reply to post by MatrixProphet
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Hi MP

I was just wondering how you cognitively reconcile what you say here and I quote "I find it easier to say, "The essence of God is in us and all living matter." That God is a separate entity cannot really be questioned, as there are great differences between us and them!

IMO his spirit is separate from us also."...and the bibles position on this RE: YHVH's OMNIPRESENCE i.e..God said through Jeremiah,

Am I only a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? (Jeremiah 23:23,24)

In Psalm 139 David wrote,

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. [Psalm 139:7-12]

Because you then state and I quote you "The trend now is to believe that we are all God. This of course goes back to ancient civilizations and is just a rehash. But this philosophy is not consistent with man and his countless imperfections and consequences."...and while I fully agree with you on the trend and rehash POV's, I unfortunately fully disagree that it is not a consistent philosophy with man i.e. it might not of been believed in broadly but thats not to say the ideology didn't exist or wasn't known or wasn't practiced by a limited few for long enduring periods of time [hunting proof of this down now and will post it ASAP! please u2u me if I fail to do this within the week. OK Note: Any help any posters can provide here would be much appreciated and greeted with a Star! ]. Also, don't those countless imperfections and consequences only arise if one takes an A PRIORI PURE GIVEN POV that God/YHVH is 100% ethical and moral in nature. And since man and nature do not reflect this POV?, then what's the actual reasonable logic of holding such an A PRIORI if it fails under scrutiny when considering (here are some other A PRIORI's) if 1) YHVH is Omnipresent and 2) that means he is an intrinsic and an unavunculated [medical term meaning NOT SEPERATE or SEPERATED!] part of existence and he's completely perfect at the Global level of GOD/EXISTENCE and 3) since I exist as a Local part of the Global existence, then I too am A part of God and must therefore be perfect at the Local level of GOD/EXISTENCE when compared at that level [and only at that level...just try to reconcile your local with the global, without considering all the other bits of "not your local parts of god"!!!]...and since both GOD and EXISTENCE are Infinite and as we can only conceive of infinity as a single bounded whole without any scalar references allowed [i.e. We see it and write it as "OO" not as "-OO..... -2,-1,0,1,2,3.... +OO" with literally every number or increment noted!!! Just try the second concept on for size and I guarantee you will tire before you hit 100,000,000 increments away from -OO if you count at 1 single increment per second and you'll still be an OO distance away from reaching 0 let alone +OO] then there can be no imperfection at all [unless one wants to be perfectly cognitively dissonant] and for physical proof of this can anyone out there please show me just 1 example, post big bang, of the universe ever breaking one of its fundamental laws.... I'm a part of the universe and of God and both are perfect. I think you are wrong but considering that would be a state of being perfectly wrong no laws are violated! . Care to refute or endorse this POV?

Personal Disclosure: I think a major cognitive problem arises when one takes the A PRIORI POV that perfection means purity of morality, instead of totality of existence including the REALITY of the ACTUALITY of BALANCE of PROBABILITY over a BELL CURVE of POSSIBILITY that resides as a demographic within the observable environment i.e. 4D existence [3 spacial and 1 temporal]. Morality is only a Local state of GOD and its yardstick should NOT be used to measure Global situations and scales.I BEG YOU to PLEASE deny any ignorance I am holding onto or promoting.

P.S. I know whats left after this may still seem impossible [i.e. OUR Current state of Global Perfection!!!] but like your Avatar's protagonist says if its the only valid POV left it must be the TRUTH.... Thanks for letting me pack your pipe Sherlock...have a puff the magic dragon on those weedy bootstraps of mine and tell me if they're too tenuous or not and I, Dr OM Watson shall await the bats in the belfry to come Holmes to roost! Eh HUh

"the 144,000 of gods best friends will get pulled up to heaven"

Only 144,000? Isn't that gross.

Sorry...couldn't resist

Let me ask you this Badmedia ...lets just say you started a study group ....maybe even an anti Paul study session ..

Now who would lead the study ? Surely someone would have to picked as the leader of your study right > ? If not then it would be total chaos at that study session wouldnt it >? Everyone would talk at the same time ...etc etc ..

This was what Paul did ..he was telling the people to get them a bishop etc ..
If you were to start a study group would you put me in charge of your study group as the leader > ? certainly not ...you would put someone in such as yourself or Matrix Prophet to lead the service would you not since you two are the most knowledgable ones of the bunch about your AntiPaul studies ? Also would you put me in as your bookeeper (the one who would take the donations for food and drinks etc for your study sessions >?) certainly not since I cannot even make 1 + 1 = 2....you would put someone in charge who could at least add .


Paul helped them get order in the bible study groups which were at that time huge gatherings where people just mulled around with no leadership .

ATS does the same thing with Moderators ...they are needed even though they very possibly could and possibly do abuse that position (even though they are all knowledgeable in certain areas where they are mods at ) (Sorry ..is just an example ..not saying you Mods do this ..just that you could do it ) (which is what happened to some of those higharchy *(Bishops preachers etc) .......
It was not Pauls teachings that corrupted them ...just like it is not the Presidential Office that is corrupted but the men in it who believes themselves to be above the law .............

It was meant as a good thing that got taken advantage of by peoples.....just like everything else ...............



[edit on 29-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


No, only the devils people remain, look around, read the posts in the thread -no one is a proper worshiper anymore -that nutjob thinks god told him paul was a lier, everyone else is convinced various sections of the bible should be ignored, people are trying to say heaven is a spirit realm or everyone goes to heaven, etc, etc No two people have had the same spiritual revalation! Doesn't that seem a bit fishy to you? you don't think maybe god would be constant? isn't it the devil in the end times who is supposed to confuse everyone?

Where are the good people is Israel? Are they the ones dropping White Phos and area denial munitions such as the huge spikes which drop from the sky? Are they the ones using them on civilians? -oh no actually, that's almost exactly what the old test god would do.... hmmm ok.

Maybe Zionists are acting like god wants them too, after all he did command quite a few genosides back in his day, however as it has been brought up already, the end times happen in a few stages, the 144,000 are taken and then they being the most holy ever to have lived -all sinless virgins, who watch as the world is turned upside down during the tribulation then jesus and the devil fight and the devil is thrown into a pit, a big city gets built and for 1000 years everyone has fun on the earth (apart from us, we're deaddead sleeping dead)

At the moment we're in the mid of Trib, the first most holy are gone and the rest of the chosen people are clearing the holy land of non-chosen ones before building a temple on temple mount, etc, etc - we have about three to four years before then final end of our existence which just happens to fall on 2012, the end of the age of Jesus as predicted in the only thing which we can trust for prediction THE BIBLE!

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE
"the 144,000 of gods best friends will get pulled up to heaven"

Only 144,000? Isn't that gross.

Sorry...couldn't resist

12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel are saved, but they have to go through the tribulation. They are Jews that convert to Christians during the 7 yr. tribulation.

Prior to the tribulation the dead believers are resurrected and the believers that are alive are instantly transformed to meet Christ in the air and then go to the City of Heaven which will be above the earth somewhere, then all hell breaks loose on earth for seven yrs.

[edit on 29/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Let me ask you this Badmedia ...lets just say you started a study group ....maybe even an anti Paul study session ..

Now who would lead the study ? Surely someone would have to picked as the leader of your study right > ? If not then it would be total chaos at that study session wouldnt it >? Everyone would talk at the same time ...etc etc ..

This was what Paul did ..he was telling the people to get them a bishop etc ..
If you were to start a study group would you put me in charge of your study group as the leader > ? certainly not ...you would put someone in such as yourself or Matrix Prophet to lead the service would you not since you two are the most knowledgable ones of the bunch about your AntiPaul studies ? Also would you put me in as your bookeeper (the one who would take the donations for food and drinks etc for your study sessions >?) certainly not since I cannot even make 1 + 1 = 2....you would put someone in charge who could at least add .


Paul helped them get order in the bible study groups which were at that time huge gatherings where people just mulled around with no leadership .

ATS does the same thing with Moderators ...they are needed even though they very possibly could and possibly do abuse that position (even though they are all knowledgeable in certain areas where they are mods at ) (Sorry ..is just an example ..not saying you Mods do this ..just that you could do it ) (which is what happened to some of those higharchy *(Bishops preachers etc) .......
It was not Pauls teachings that corrupted them ...just like it is not the Presidential Office that is corrupted but the men in it who believes themselves to be above the law .............

It was meant as a good thing that got taken advantage of by peoples.....just like everything else ...............

But there is only 1 true teacher, there is only 1 leader. These people who make themselves leaders are doing so because the people looking up to them do not see the truth. This is something Jesus specifically says not to do. Do not make yourselves leaders.


Paul says:

1 Cor 4

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Begotten means he has become your father through the gospel. NIV version and all other versions also show this.

NIV:

15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Jesus says:

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

In this case, Jesus himself directly says otherwise. Even tells you why.

Notice I am actually telling you the exact same thing Jesus told people back then? That is is still going on?

[edit on 29-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by John Matrix


Hello John,

Very good post. Really not anything that I could add to it. The only thing is I think there might still be some confusion about the 144,000. And why were they sealed.

Of course, not everyone believes in the Rapture, but if one looks through Scripture it can be proven.

Good post


Peace to you,
Grandma

And it doesn't stop there either. Look in the same exact chapter.

Matthew 23

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Because they do not have the personal relationship, they do not allow it. And they deny it in others and make them suffer those who speak of it. In fact, Jesus warns that you will be delivered to the synagogues(churches,scripture) and scorned in them. See below, same chapter.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

So many examples of the church taking advantage of people in need. Scams upon scams.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

And no doubt Christians compass the land and sea to convert people to Christianity.

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Church has long history of doing this. I am constantly told I'm going to hell.

And this is just 1 chapter, and is from the same chapter in my last post. How much more obvious does it need to be for you?

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Hello John,

Very good post. Really not anything that I could add to it. The only thing is I think there might still be some confusion about the 144,000. And why were they sealed.

Of course, not everyone believes in the Rapture, but if one looks through Scripture it can be proven.

Good post

Peace to you,
Grandma

I'm just not sure if I believe it to be an event. I think it does happen on an individual basis, but I'm not so sure about all at once. I say this because it was offered to me.

The word "rapture" is not a biblical word, so we know that is made up by humans. Also, for such a mass disappearance of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world, there is very little description of such a major event, yet there are plenty of descriptions of the end times and what we should be watching out for. I'm just not sure I believe there is a rapture and that it is probably as made up as the word itself. I mean, who wouldn't want to believe they could escape the tribulation entirely?

If the rapture is real, why is the word not even a part of Scripture? The word is not from God, it is from man.