The Abortion Paradox

reply to post by saint4God

Originally posted by saint4God
Jail is the emotional suffering and scars that come from having an abortion. That's 'jail' enough. After some years she may 'get out' or grieve less the decision.

I see. Understood.

I think you are correct that there is certainly emotional scarring. Whether there was rape, or whether or not it was just poor decisions, certainly it affects the woman. And yes, some, may even feel guilty for having the abortion (I'm not sure of that percentage).

Honestly though, it has been a pleasure discussing this with you. It is nice to be able to talk to someone who is passionate, but doesn't let that passion turn them into a jerk.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


I agree, we probably won't. It is clearly two different schools of thought.

reply to post by juveous


I do understand what you are saying. Sometimes it gets confusing because some people are still stuck on, "Well the same person would be born because it is fate", some people are stuck on "M1ck you're an idiot because you offend my beliefs", and you are probably thinking through it even further than I.

I actually do agree with your point. If you went back and reversed it, that person doesn't exist so it doesn't matter to those people. But right now, those people do exist, so it does matter to me.

Again, I think it gets confusing because when so many hear abortion they want to start talking about morality and how it is wrong. I never really had that intention, but I got dragged into it.

All I was trying to convey is that there are people who are alive because of abortion. That's it. No one would miss them, since they never exist, but they still would cease to exist.

That's all I am trying to convey. Do you agree with that statement or do you think I am still missing something?

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Honestly though, it has been a pleasure discussing this with you. It is nice to be able to talk to someone who is passionate, but doesn't let that passion turn them into a jerk.

Thanks! Likewise I believe we've had a progressive discussion and appreciate your patience in the moments where I may have been a little curt at times. In the line of issues being passionate about, saving lives is the second most important issue for me so it's easy for me to get intently engaged in the discussion.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
I actually do agree with your point. If you went back and reversed it, that person doesn't exist so it doesn't matter to those people. But right now, those people do exist, so it does matter to me.

Again, I think it gets confusing because when so many hear abortion they want to start talking about morality and how it is wrong. I never really had that intention, but I got dragged into it.

It's almost hard to see it when you say that you "had no intention of talking about morality". but it is me just judging because this thread came in the same time another abortion thread did, I don't know how one can't think of morality on the subject of abortion.

All I was trying to convey is that there are people who are alive because of abortion. That's it. No one would miss them, since they never exist, but they still would cease to exist.

That's all I am trying to convey. Do you agree with that statement or do you think I am still missing something?

I am a little confused by this last statement. but, I think it is really about taking a piece of what isn't there. Everyone that exist right now is supposed to exist IMO, even though I'm sure we regret some decisions, we can't have bits of both experiences if we were allowed to change anything. I just can't follow your logic to a conclusion. you have your supporting argument i'll give you that, but when I try to come to a true conclusion it just fails.

I can't follow through with what I'm presented. yes people have abortions, yes people that exist now, probably wouldn't, if it wasn't for an abortion, but follow this through, it says that "people will exist, in spite of abortions" and that statement is not true, because if everyone had an abortion our life would cease.

In retrospect I see where you are coming from, but in reality there is no trade being done, just picking pieces of the past and comparing them to now.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by juveous]

reply to post by juveous

I don't know how one can't think of morality on the subject of abortion.

Generally that is what is talked about, and it is hard not to. That's why almost every abortion thread ends up discussing God, souls, whether or not it is murder, when the abortion should be performed for it to be okay, etc. And that's why I don't want to discuss it here, because it is discusses everywhere else, so why drag down decent discussion with the same old arguments?

Everyone that exist right now is supposed to exist IMO, even though I'm sure we regret some decisions, we can't have bits of both experiences if we were allowed to change anything.

See, that's what I figured when I made this thread. I figured a lot of people felt that way - that people who are here are supposed to be here. I can't say that I subscribe to that school of thought, but I think it actually helps my argument.

What I haven't gotten a full scope of understanding about is what religious people feel about the relationship between DNA, our personality, fate, and our souls. I am not sure if you are religious, but if you are, that would be great if you could help me with that.

Is the soul a blank slate that can be changed from person to person? Is the DNA a representative of the soul, therefore ensuring fate since it had to be that sperm and egg to create him/her?

Also, if everyone who is alive today is supposed to be, does it not mean that the abortion was supposed to happen, thereby creating the path for that specific individual to be born?

I don't know if I am making my line of thought more clear or more convoluted at this point.

[edit on 1/22/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
How could things still work out the same?

The same as what?
Think about that....

So many different choices would be affected. Do you go out with your friends that night? Do you go shopping or do you go on a date? Do you date this person or this person? Do you have sex that night (the baby might just cry)? All of those decisions would be impacted by having a child.

Yet none of that would have any bearing on the alternative cause and effect reasons we know someone is alive because of an abortion. We can no more say someone is alive because of an abortion then we can for using the same logic to allege someone was killed because there was no abortion.

Now if you continue to cheat by using the outcome of your present life and frame of reference as an excuse or to suggest that YOUR DNA and YOUR Biological person not being the outcome of an alternate life and person makes patent your assertions we are wrong,, then again, you are not getting this but since you think you have the right to that kind of duality and existence to know "the same person" being you again is immeasurable odds, but you keep forgetting one thing.

YOU DON'T MATTER because you would undoubtedly not been created to make the comparison hence we are now and then dealing only what is in the realm of the here and now, what exists and what cannot POSSIBLY know what genes and dna were not correct in another outcome. If you could do that, then you could have known who the two witnesses that had their lives robbed from them by people who were allowed to live rather than be terminated by the pathetic parenting planners at planned parenthood. Their is a reason you can only know about YOU and who you are and not know the two I asked about on a list.

It is the same reason your genetics argument is a BUST in spite of my alleged ignorance of the subject, AND your idea that you exist as a direct result of an abortion when it is just as likely the REAL reason was because of the miss guided friend who persuaded the girl to GET the abortion. Now had it not been for her, Mom would have NEVER got one so what then or who, is really responsible. You are right in mentioning the variable for causality and the limitless postulates about alternative outcomes could go on forever. So we can only use conjecture and speculation is not evidence, much less proof.

Considering how genetics play such a crucial role in who we are, just having a different sperm and/or a different egg is easily enough to make an entirely different person.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
TextIt's too bad that the United States government and SCOTUS completely disagree with you. Perhaps if you could somehow prove that they have souls you might get somewhere.

Yeah, and Ironically you completely missed the fact that all those I mentioned were also the State heads of "secular" and atheistic Governments which had carried out the worst Genocides in the history of mankind. I know,, I know,, we all hear it is religion that has done this but religion has got nothing on those Godless regimes led by those I named in my post. Not even close.

As for whether or not a fetus is a person... well according to the law, you aren't winning that battle either. Chastise me all you want, it's not my fault that your views don't line up with the US legal system.

Nope, when you're right, you're right mick and unlike you,, I don't have a problem admitting that or sharing it with someone where if the roles were reversed, he would be having fits not unlike those we have seen you make and another, it appears, I am about to address

Whew. God, you should join the clergy because you can preach garbage with the best of them.

Mick why is it you,,, *sigh*,,, never mind

The fact of the matter is, the entire pro-life outlook is, "every life counts". However, that's clearly not a truthful statement. Most pro-lifers agree with the death penalty, and obviously are not affected by the thought of basically aborting people who are alive today.

Logical Fallacy for shooting the message and not the messenger Mick. Don't judge the statement untruthful by the people who say they subscribe to it but are not in their actions, consistent with it.



[edit on 22-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
From this quote:
Everyone that exist right now is supposed to exist IMO, even though I'm sure we regret some decisions, we can't have bits of both experiences if we were allowed to change anything.

To the following by Mick who says:

TextSee, that's what I figured when I made this thread. I figured a lot of people felt that way - that people who are here are supposed to be here. I can't say that I subscribe to that school of thought, but I think it actually helps my argument.

No it doesn't help your argument and it is the mistake in the language given that causes much of the false premise that we are "supposed" to be here. This suggests not causality from natural occurrence's but "authorization" as if it were somehow "planned" we be here. and Ironically most of the business, planned parent hood is about is playing, GOD in assisting those others playing God and deciding, whether or not a living evolving human being, someone who didn't ask to be born, and certainly didn't deserve to be sentenced to death by people that ultimately would say, they are not "supposed" to be here.

It is when they say, they are not supposed to be here because MICK is gonna be here later! As you all know,,, if there was anyone that is SUPPOSED to be here,, it is those that can tell us that whoever is at the controls of fate, must have known Mick's arrival was pretty damn important.

I mean they had to "bump" someones life just to make sure Mick would get his place at the table.

FACT: We are here and our very existence makes patent the knowledge that we have every right to be here and is validated by that same existence.

What I haven't gotten a full scope of understanding about is what religious people feel about the relationship between DNA, our personality, fate, and our souls. I am not sure if you are religious, but if you are, that would be great if you could help me with that.

Is the soul a blank slate that can be changed from person to person? Is the DNA a representative of the soul, therefore ensuring fate since it had to be that sperm and egg to create him/her?

Am I reading that right? Mick??


Ahhh I see how it is, give him a reputation to live up to and show em some respect asking questions he might say their is a chance for you yet mick!

They have common ground and suddenly, out of nowhere! We see what is underneath these disingenuous remarks while you dress him up, put him together, then THROW HIM RIGHT BACK UNDER THE BUSS AGAIN,,

Also, if everyone who is alive today is supposed to be, does it not mean that the abortion was supposed to happen, thereby creating the path for that specific individual to be born?

GOING BACK TO THE SAME FALLACIOUSLY ABSURD IDEA THAT HAS BEEN DEBUNKED AD NAUSEUM AD INFINITUM!

Oh and see what I mean when you use the word "supposed" and not as supposition but to support what has all the earmarks for what Mick is suggesting is a divine hand guiding it. "the abortion was supposed to happen."


Would such a entity be it God or whatever Mick is suggesting here, what ever it is, it must think Mick is "Ta die for"

Enjoy the tread mill guys,, or is it watching the paint dry ?








[edit on 22-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi




Are you still trying to form arguments? Keep working on it big guy.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


yes

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

Are you still trying to form arguments? Keep working on it big guy.

Ha ha mick, I knew you didn't have an argument here back when I told you YOURS was "Pointless" and explained why at the begining of this thread. So believe me,, in thread that never had a cogent argument from the start and coming from a guy who most likely STILL has no clue what killed this threads argument. It was given as many reasons but ALL being differen't versions of the same one, that same simple logical fallacy called Assuming the Consequent Only SHE (ashley) was more gracious and more appreciative for learning hard lessons in debate by people who have been a lot more experienced and a lot more intelligent than we have seen here. That was a memorable thread and well worth reading from the start as you may get an Idea that I forgot more arguments defeated by this particular logical fallacy then you will ever form Mick and THAT's a fact. As for your accusations

An ad hom would be of the form:

"You are stupid, therefore you are wrong."

Whereas my arguments might well take the form:

"You are stupid because of a, b, and c. Oh, and you are stupid."

Which is not an ad hom, just insulting or possibly true. That being said, I usually seem to have that effect on people like you, hence all the accusations I have faced in this one where I never had to resort to actually calling you stupid,, like you did to me.

I simply make you "look like you are" especially when you give me no choice but to come back to your thread and install the proper angle of looking at this fallaciously constructed line of logic using the "existance" angle, which was followed by many others all the way to its inevitable and at least for you, a somewhat humiliatingly difficult conclusion to accept, that you were finished. DONE.

So get over it.

I did








[edit on 23-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi


No, I'm just not going to bother arguing with you anymore. If you want to set up a debate about something, go right ahead, but I'm not going to waste time debating with a guy who argues like a child.

[edit on 1/23/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

No, I'm just not going to bother arguing with you anymore. If you want to set up a debate about something, go right ahead, but I'm not going to waste time debating with a guy who argues like a child.

[edit on 1/23/2009 by Irish M1ck]

You CAN'T win this debate MICK Jeez I should show ash this thread just so she can see that she wasn't as stubborn to "Get it" as "SOME people are. Hell do you realize the moment you made that suggestion regarding the equal rights of those people who were never born because of those not snuffed out by abortion what kind of BOOT a case like that would be met with kicking it out of court for its frivolity alone!

You really still just Dont Get it do ya .. lol So when you lose that debate

you still wouldnt get it,, and mick,,

THAT is the point of debate

and why you'll ALWAYS

LOSE

reply to post by Aermacchi


I get that you like to capitalize letters in random places. Show it to AshleyD. In fact, you let her come here, and you leave. That would be fantastic.

Then, watch me and AshleyD debate, and you might just learn something.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

I get that you like to capitalize letters in random places. Show it to AshleyD. In fact, you let her come here, and you leave. That would be fantastic.

Then, watch me and AshleyD debate, and you might just learn something.

Ya know what!! That is a GREAT IDEA and I wouldn't be surprised if I do learn a thing or two,,

FROM ASHLEY, Not you.

Ill bet Ill learn that she is a lot better than even I was back then at spotting pointless arguments like this one was. Ill bet she shows me some new debate tactics that, albeit probably still won't sink in that gray matter, of yours, but would impress those serious about NOT how to debate people who are good at it,, but avoid those, like you, who don't really know logical fallacy and still can't determine the difference between an argument and a premise, an argument from a proposition, the ability to argue VS the willingness to argue. You may be willing to debate me, but I am not willing to argue with someone that STILL has not created a testable cogent argument according to Roberts Rules of debate.

Don't be surprised if ash told you I could destroy you in a debate on this threads op using introductory defintions for what an argument must have to be defined as an argument, having that be my closing argument throwing this one out of the debate the same way it would be thrown out of court as frivolous or as I like to call it,, POINTLESS CIRCULAR LOGIC.

You know,, that logic,

"you respond to"

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Everyone that exist right now is supposed to exist IMO, even though I'm sure we regret some decisions, we can't have bits of both experiences if we were allowed to change anything.

See, that's what I figured when I made this thread. I figured a lot of people felt that way - that people who are here are supposed to be here. I can't say that I subscribe to that school of thought, but I think it actually helps my argument.

well, i'm glad you are at least open minded. The thing is, there is no wrong "school of thought" - religious, spiritual, logical, empirical, scientific, etc - they all have their limitations which is our human understanding. There are people who claim to know, but cannot possibly share the knowledge, as their knowledge is their experience, so in order to share it you must find that same experience. The only person that's going to see this is someone with that keeps an open mind same in vice versa.

when I say I believe everyone is supposed to be here, it is the same as anyone who believes that all that is, cannot be other wise. which is currently empirically true as we can only observe something after it has happened.

What I haven't gotten a full scope of understanding about is what religious people feel about the relationship between DNA, our personality, fate, and our souls. I am not sure if you are religious, but if you are, that would be great if you could help me with that.

Is the soul a blank slate that can be changed from person to person? Is the DNA a representative of the soul, therefore ensuring fate since it had to be that sperm and egg to create him/her?

Also, if everyone who is alive today is supposed to be, does it not mean that the abortion was supposed to happen, thereby creating the path for that specific individual to be born?

I don't know if I am making my line of thought more clear or more convoluted at this point.

Well I'm sure if a reader just jumped in right now, they would be lost. but, like I said, I don't believe everything is supposed to happen because I claim to know any plan, but rather because I'm am a witness of my experience, whether anything that happens good or bad, I have no problem than accepting what is observable to happen, anything other would be a denial of your experience. I can imagine other wise, but we can only know what is, which is by the way only true as proven after observation.

I guess to best answer your questions, I would just ask a question -
you could say the abortion was supposed to happen, but before the decision was made was it going to happen? I don't know, and that's just it, I don't know what is supposed to happen so I guess I should try not to regret, and think about my experience when ever I think I will.

It is too bad at our every thought lies a little "prediction" based off patterns in our experience. I'm sure there are much better people than I on ATS, in explaining things like souls & being with DNA. I'm not religious, but I take my line of thought from religious texts as well as any other book that dilates understanding. sorry, but I have very much to learn and experience.

Abortion is killing the body, but not the soul, because the soul is immortal. It goes back from whence it came or enters another embryo. But it has suffered pain on both the physical and soul level!

However, consider the alternative: If it would be born by a mother (parents) who doesn’t want it, it will most probably have no love, but carelessly be treated badly (at least psychologically) and have a very unhappy start in life. It may even be subject to violence and abused as a child. To what will it grow up? Criminal? Drug abuser or dealer? Prostitute? The "chances" are high!

Because mainly immature persons want abortion who take no responsibility for a child. And mature persons, anyway, would not have unprotected sex, so that an unwanted pregnancy is very unlikely.
What can a child expect from such immature persons?

So what is the lesser evil for the soul of the child? Go back or maybe be born somewhere else, instead, or be born into what is quite likely to become more or less a hell?

This is as seen from the souls perspective. The woman who aborts is, of course, not able to see such perspectives. This is no excuse for her! But maybe it is better that way in very many cases for the soul of the child!

How can we know? We can only evaluate probabilities. And the probability for unhappiness and suffering is no doubt high when the child is unwanted!

Remember a study that was made several years ago? It was found that in some states criminality went down significantly some 18-20 years after abortion was legalised! Of course everything has been done to "kill" that conclusion - but isn’t it psychologically LOGICAL?

reply to post by memyself


There are laws against abusing an unwanted child.
I know that after I had an abortion and began taking care of a baby (my nephew)2 years later, it became IMPOSSIBLE for me to let ANYONE abuse him.
I would have given my LIFE for him!
I was no better off financially and my sister was only middle income (at best).

A baby changes things for women with a heart! When you look into their eyes and I have three of my own, now, you can see LOVE.
When my mother had us, she was already being abused by my dad. He had shrapnel in his brain and an accident caused it to move and he was violent!
She left him with three girls to take care of in a big city with us eating peanut butter crackers to live on. She NEVER said "I don't love you" or abused us.
Some women have class!

Yes, you are a real mother! But how many are? From where do all these abused and mistreated children come? Laws or not, it happens to them, anyway … Laws obviously hardly prevent, but only punish perpetrators if they are caught, and what does that help the child who is a victim?

reply to post by juveous


Hey that's fine. I appreciate the candid response.

Originally posted by memyself
Yes, you are a real mother! But how many are? From where do all these abused and mistreated children come? Laws or not, it happens to them, anyway … Laws obviously hardly prevent, but only punish perpetrators if they are caught, and what does that help the child who is a victim?

Between you and Mick I don't know which is worse with your lack of knowing logical fallacy. So let me just ask you since you seem to KNOW what a souls perspective is at a childs fetal stage of life.

Just what is it then?

Now you are correct that at the very first sentence given we see the first fatal flaw in micks logic and one including many more after but taking the first one that a soul is "killed" during the abortion is, at best conjecture and if you are a Bible believing advocate of the God of Abraham, that soul, does NOT die but where in the Bible does it say it gets a new embryo to inhabit?

Where does it say in the bible that a soul goes ANYWHERE to get ANY new body to inhabit and does this happen in just the pregnancy stages or does it happen after suggesting a reincarntaion of sorts?

You see this is all purely speculation and the fact is YOU DON'T KNOW!

If yours is a Biblical perspective as is mine, then we have faith in the promises given which WE BELIEVE are true, but PROVING they are is something even the lord has said "My thinking is not your thinking" for we cannot go where he is to find him in our mortal state in our finite world with all its physical properties that keep us bound to the laws of physics and beyond that which we cannot and will not EVER comprehend.

Micks argument suggesting that he would not be here if not for an abortion is based on PURE speculation as he thinks he was supposed to be here because he IS here. How this changes anything I have no idea as if that abortion had not been allowed, then THAT person being allowed to live would have just as much to quantify that THEY too are SUPPOSED to be here and had that happened means MICK is not supposed to be here.

Who decided that were doctors and one Mom who decided someone was NOT supposed to be here and BOTH trying to improve on the divine provedence of God or Natural selection of evolution, either ideology you pick, it is MAN who interupted that using what ever the excuse was or still is these days. So ask the mother or the doctor if they knew who was supposed to be here in the dying ones place later.

Mick thinks it is HIM because he is here and thinks he was supposed to be.

The logic you are using suggests that could have been MICK the first time and because of the abortion, God said Oh no you don't and brought Mick back again regardless of gender or genetics I am not my DNA as that is just part of me. What makes me who I am is my accumulated memories my education and experiences.

These are what makes my life have meaning and value and what we all cherish. Someone said we are only worth what it takes to make us in chemicals. Yet she totally ignores the time and investment that has gone into the research over the years leading up to how yu take those chemicals and mix them up to create something LIVING.

That takes INTELLIGENCE.

But even if you are of the school of thought that intelligent design is not science but happens by randomness or natural happenstance the fact is it has taken many thousands or minds in medical Science through hundreds and hundreds of years of cimbined concentrated study to come to a consensus that we to this day have not been able to duplicate in technologicaly intelligently created man made rendered version of us.

Like the airplane we copy from the intellectual property, either nature without intelligence but using time has created or that infinite intelligence God created, we only put value on it when a stealth jet fighter is made costing millions. This is also what makes thinking abortion is so easy to dismiss as something that isn't human because it ( a fetus) has no memories no history nothing to cherish hence has nothing to lose and of course it is not something man had any real investment in its design in the first place so that goes unappreciated. The day we can do what ever it is that created us can do, is the day abortion is given much more attention and appreciation for life is given it also. It would be the day the Micks of the world would have no doubt what so ever as to his knowing where he came from and whose intention it was that he be here or not.

Until then, it will be the PTB and the ongoing arguments between creationsits and evolutionists in a perpectual endless loop of circular logic because both schools of thought are arguments defeated by the logical fallacy of assuming the consequent just like this one was and both use their best understanding of science and philosophy to trump the other but logic is now as it always has been, in the eyes of the logician.

The best ideology with the most to offer is the one I subscribe to which includes the eternal soul being that what ever created us has created that also. After I chose that Ideology I have two choices to make.

Mick has already decided which ideology to follow so the only other choices he has are made for him. he lives and dies thats it. It is interesting to note that even in his secular and fallaciously thought out theory of how he came to be, someone still had to play the role of a God giving him the idea that he is "supposed" to be here.

The fact is we are ALL supposed to be here and who places values on it and what ideas we have that diminsh those values so that someone can play the part of that God in an act of abortion is another logical fallacy in and of itself. Logical Fallacy has been an area of study I have had all my life and one I went to college to get my degree as it affects our decisions all the way to the supreme court. Once a human being is here, it exists and like us does not have to substantiate its being here by saying it is supposed to be here.

IT IS HERE and our lack of appreciation for how it got here is where man makes his biggest mistakes, destroying what exists and what we cannot copy in ANY of the stages of its inevitable evolution. That is why they ignore God as it doesn't matter how it came to be.

Thou shall not destroy what God put usunder.

It is one I could write a book on but will have to wait for another time or another thread.

reply to post by Aermacchi


You must be obsessed. You can't even quit thinking about me when replying to others.

You are crazy.