The Abortion Paradox

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Not as easy as you think, Mick, when you say you wouldn't feel a thing. does that mean you wouldn't or couldn't? You see that is hearsay and conjecture is not proof it is what you believe but that isn't evidence

care to try again?

How can I feel anything when I don't exist?

FOUR TIMES????

What?

yeah that works fine but only in people that exist in the hear and now mick and ya know why??

Because That's the way genetics works

I'm not sure you have any grasp on what you are even saying. That statement literally makes no sense at all. And it's "here and now".

Hey Mick If I was minus 8000 and brought to + 5000 which is something I can prove happens here, it STILL would have no bearing on this topic so what the hell are you going off topic about this time!

It's going to be a long road getting there at this rate.

Mick you have no idea what I have done and I have had 8 in five months can you beat that? Not that it matters anymore

Damn, you must have really gotten a lot of points docked then. However, I don't believe you not knowing something has stopped you from passing judgment time and time again, so I don't see where you have an inch to stand on.

I didn't plagiarize a damn thing mick, the logical fallacy I quoted in the bracketed external quotes was one I got in an email but who sent it is none of your business.

You're right, I guess that evens us out from when you falsely accused me of plagiarizing this thread.

I guess I just blocked it out when I realized that you tried to use a religious text to talk about circular logic.

If you are goiong to use that frame of logic then practice what you preach smart guy because I see you using a lot of quotes of mine without a single link to the source.

What am I going to source back to? This thread?

Yes Mick it is the one that burns religious people and THAT is why a religious example is GIVEN and why it defeats it.

Atheist's generally know more about this area of debate then any Christian I have known but if you ask Ashley, Ill bet ya she will tell you what I think she will and that is YOU AIN'T DEALIN WITH SOMEONE RIGHT OFF THE TURNIP TRUCK and logical fallacy is something not many will know as well as she knows this christian does and why.

Yes, I know AshleyD quite well from these forums. She's a great person and we both hold a great of deal respect for each other. Trust me, if I could talk to her instead of you, it would be my pleasure.

And how you get that it was "defeated" by one stupid example is beyond me. That's hardly a proof, but I guess it goes right back to the whole circular logic problem.

Support? I am not asking you to provide your friends or the peanut gallery to come here with pom poms in hand I am asking for PROOF not support.

I cannot provide proof of this anymore than you can provide proof that it is incorrect, or that God exists or doesn't exist, etc. I would, however, say that the probability that I am correct greatly outweighs the latter.

Luckily for you, you've got your little "abortion is murder" peanut gallery with you.

I don't know,, I have never used differen't spem and differn't eggs to create me, have you ?

Didn't think so, but what makes that even more pointless is attempting it from outside the time continuum where anything is anyones guess

Thus proving that you have no idea about genetics.

Genetics

Now this is basic, so I am hoping it won't fly right over your head like the rest of the stuff I have posted.

If identical female twins get pregnant by the same man will their children be exactly the same if they are the same sex?

Interesting question! The quick answer is that the children will not be the same. If you think about it, this scenario isn’t really that different than the same man and woman having two kids of the same sex.

Get that?

As you know, our DNA helps determine what we look like, how we act, what diseases we might get and a whole lot more. And ultimately what DNA we get is determined from the egg and sperm that combined to make us. So to understand why siblings are so different from each other, we need to figure out how sperm and eggs get their DNA.

Okay, so DNA is basically a blueprint for who we are. It determines the basics of what we look like, what diseases we get, and many other factors like personality traits.

Most of our cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes for a total of 46. One set of 23 comes from mom and the other 23 from dad.

The egg and sperm cells are an exception—they have only 23 chromosomes each. A sperm from the man combines with a woman’s egg in her womb to make a zygote. The zygote ends up with a total of 46 chromosomes and can now grow into a baby.

I truly hope you actually aren't learning anything here. Did they talk about this in your religious circular logic text?

Back to your question. Identical twins have the same genetic material, but as you can see, every egg they both make is different. Every sperm a man makes is different.

Hence the chances of their babies being identical are pretty close to zero. The kids wouldn’t be anymore alike than any brother or sister.

Funny. Close to zero... that sounds almost exactly like what I said a few pages back. Oh wait, that is what I said.

For 23 chromosomes, there are over 10,000,000,000,000 possibilities*. In other words, there is a 1 in 10 trillion chance of having the exact same baby. This chance is essentially zero.

I really didn't think I'd have to actually post up the numbers (I thought it was pretty obvious about the odds). Of course, there is no telling when you factor in "God".

Originally posted by Aermacchi
I have no idea where this is coming from but it is obvious yo uare missing the point, this isn't about one life having value over another it is about the ONLY lives that matter and that is those That EXIST! and only those that exist! Who the hell cares about lives that won't ? or those we THINK MIGHT just because we want to?

It is POINTLESS Circular Logic Mick plane AND

SIMPLE!

Ohh, okay. So the ones who were aborted don't exist, therefore, don't matter.

Gotcha.

[edit on 1/20/2009 by Irish M1ck]

reply to post by Irish M1ck


Genetics? An interesting dynamic I didn't think of.

Well that's something to ponder over. My sister and I look similar and are only a few months apart, but we are wild in difference, purely because of different parenting tactics.

Well, too early in life and the kid suffers physiologically. too late and it suffers genetically. There's really no way to win on that one.

My parents had me late in life. As a result, I guess my genetics are a bit wacky. I had a violent allergic reaction as a child to aspartame. I mean, the stuff supposedly does damage on everyone but it's like kryptonite for me.

Had I been born 20 years earlier in my parents life, maybe I would not have that allergy, but then my parents would suffer financially.


That's a deep philosophical question that I can't see any good answer to.


[edit on 20-1-2009 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Lasheic
You don't have a soul. You ARE a Soul. You HAVE a body.
Abortion doesn't kill the soul; it kills the body. The soul isn't created in the womb -- each one of us (all 8 billion of us) were designed/planned before the foundation of the universe by God himself. There are no "accidental" people. Augustine wasn't God; he was "catholic". God isn't catholic or an athiest. Babies burning in hell??? Not true. Heaven is filled with forgiven sinners and innocent children. Hell is for people who don't want to be with the forgiven sinners. Are you mad at God? Tell him. He'd love to hear from you. Too bad religious doctrine has sabotaged the truth of the goodness of God described in the bible. Heaven is not only filled with the souls of aborted babies, but also filled with the souls of repentenant sinners including abortionists and women who had wept over their abortions. Yes, heaven is filled with forgiven murders and their victims. Is it God's will for women to have a CHOICE between life & death for their babies? No, but our governmental laws allow it. But God's will can never be trumped by mankind's laws.

reply to post by Gorman91


Had your parents waited one night, you wouldn't even be you - let alone having you 20 years earlier. So, yes, the person that replaced you may or may not have the same allergy (just depends on the odds).

Also, of course, you are correct that nurture would be completely different.

This argument is completely silly. Anything could change the chances that someone else is born later on in life. I met my wife while in the military. Had I decided not to go, then my children would have never existed. Heck, if I went in just a few weeks later, then none of this would have happened. Does this mean that I would have decided not to make life happen by choosing something different?

My biggest worry about abortion, is that the wrong person may be aborted. What if the one person who can find the cure to cancer was aborted at one point in time, that one person who could somehow find the answer. I just hate to see anyone not get a fair chance at life, no matter how bad of a situation they are born into. We can't all live the "good" life, with silver spoons and all. What matters most is what you make of your life.

And look, I made an abortion argument without any religious or spiritual talk.

reply to post by AHostileMe


What if the person who would cure cancer isn't born because the parent decides not to have an abortion? That argument can work both ways.

You say it's silly, but you cannot deny the truth of it. Yeah, if you hadn't done one of the major things that you did in life, your children would not exist. True.

However, that does not mean the big decisions you have made are right or wrong, it just means that you made them and that because of that your kids are alive. The same with abortion.

What I am saying does not mean abortion is right, nor does it make it wrong, it just simply means what it means.

But you're talking about sacrificing an already existing person for someone who may or may not exist in the future. Work with what you have, not with what you may have in the future.

reply to post by AHostileMe


Right, but I am speaking from the present. So these people do exist, there is no "may or may not" about it.

I understand what you are saying. My wife always tells me something, when she wishes that her life were different now, how she wishes that she made better decisions when she was younger. I would say, well, then we would've never existed, nor our children. She says that if it were meant to be, then it would have happened, just in a different way.

I usually disagree with her, but in a way, maybe she is right. If you were really meant to exist in this life, maybe you will, but to a different set of parents. But then this goes way too deep, and I should stop now. How are we picked? When a person is conceived, is a spirit randomly chosen to inhabit that body? Is there a grand spirit who chooses which spirit goes to whom? Anyway, going off topic, so back to the thread now ...

[edit on 21-1-2009 by AHostileMe]

reply to post by AHostileMe


No, and that's a decent point. Strictly scientifically, it's quite impossible, but especially to those with faith, I can see how it isn't far fetched. Of course, at the same time, if that is true then the same goes with the aborted fetus.

If he/she was meant to be alive, then he/she will be alive.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
You can "pray" for me all you want, it won't change anything - I don't respond to prayer, I respond to logic.

I'm not praying for you to respond to prayer, I'm praying for God to positively respond to you whether that be logically or otherwise.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Saint, I respect your opinions on abortion, but I really don't believe you think my intentions are sincere. Also, I do not understand how you, or anyone else, can believe that things would be different but still work out the same.

The Greeks call it "Fate". Christians believe it's "God's Plan". It's a very similar concept either way:

Not only does Cleanthes speak of the will of fate, leading all where they go, it also clearly demonstrates the futility of opposing fate, as fate will be fulfilled no matter if one wishes it to or not.

Not only is the Christian concept of predestination essentially a synonym for fate, fate is also displayed in the tales of the Bible. A specific instance of fate in the Bible is in the story of King David. David ascends the throne only after "divine intervention" (Hodge). David's actions alone were not sufficient for him to achieve kingship. Thus, he became King not because of his actions, but because it was fated to happen. A direct correlation is seen between King David and King Oedipus, because both were established as sovereign because of fate (Hodge). Examples of fate are seen throughout Christian history.

- www.helium.com...

I'm trying to remember which play it was, but in one a man was told not to go to the market because Death was looking around. When he goes to another city, he runs into Death who bascially says he wasn't looking for him there but someone else and was told to meet him at this other city. So, by trying to avoid Death, he runs into him.

Two recommendations I'd have is to try not to insist that the soul is linked to our DNA (because we simply don't know and the soul doesn't seem to die with DNA in most beliefs) and consider a more cosmic plan than assuming we as individuals can change the whole universe with a single decision.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
The fact of the matter is, the entire pro-life outlook is, "every life counts". However, that's clearly not a truthful statement. Most pro-lifers agree with the death penalty, and obviously are not affected by the thought of basically aborting people who are alive today.

I'm not one of these people. Whether a baby who has done no wrong deeds to a criminal who has done many, I do not support death and am pro-life.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


Along those lines, if she had never gotten pregnant the first time her life could have taken a tertiary route with a potential third child to consider. So, could her reproductive irrespnsibility have caused two lives to never come about?

What if what if.

reply to post by Irish M1ck



Chew on this!

Abortion


[edit on 21-1-2009 by TheWorldNeedsPeace]

Just thought I would jump back in this thread

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
not one of you even tried to actually consider the subject.

I thought my posts were absolutely on topic.

The fact of the matter is, the entire pro-life outlook is, "every life counts". However, that's clearly not a truthful statement. Most pro-lifers agree with the death penalty, and obviously are not affected by the thought of basically aborting people who are alive today.

wat? do you believe criminals choose their actions? how about the ones aware of the consequences? murderers and rapists know the justice system. and it is the consequence of whom is guilty. a fetus aka- child to be - is absolutely innocent, every time, no room for confusion.

you actually just equated abortion as punishment.

Could, say, the woman still become a math teacher? Absolutely. Could she still be married to the same person? Of course (though maybe not!). What I don't find plausible at all is that she would create the same children.

To be as mindful as I can with your understanding:

1.) people exist right now

2.) abortion denies life

3.) people choose who lives (abortion)

4.) the same people that exist today would not be the same or not even have existed if it wasn't for the direct choice of someone denying the life of another before.

5.) the proof is in the pudding, every event, no matter how subtle effects the future.

the problem:

let us say: if the child was born, or if no woman ever had an abortion, how would the question be asked?

- like this - If your parents aborted you instead, are there some people alive right now that would not have existed besides you?

conclusion, we can't know. period. but in the trend of plausibility, which is the theme of this thread - I would say no. If everyone did not have an abortion, then to ask if someone did, the only thing known for sure is -1 on the population.

So lets think about this. people exist today, people have had abortions, according to my logic, less people are alive because of it.

And stop trying to win over this debate with "people wouldn't be the same" or "genetics would have altered others into a different person altogether"

That's where you insinuate that abortions are the effect to what you can be "thankful for" today. AKA - abortions are good. The very reason there are a LOT of people in here that don't appreciate that kind of rhetoric.

reply to post by Nohup


That has to be the worst argument I have ever heard. It can be applied to anything. What if I killed you you wife, girlfriend, husband whatever found someboby else and had a child, you see where I'm going with this. Abortion is a difficult issue, and there are good arguments on both sides yours is just not one of them

Originally posted by Irish M1ck

What if the person who would cure cancer isn't born because the parent decides not to have an abortion? That argument can work both ways.

About 50 posts ago I mentioned that you and others are trying to compare an actual life to the possibilities of life, and it just doesn't work because to suggest that killing an actual life for future possibilities is logical in some way is wrong on so many levels I would be here all day writing.

So the best thing I can say is just think about that for a minute….



[edit on 21-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

It is very simple and very biological....

Once the egg and sperm connect, it is a biological species. AKA...it is a living thing. That means the cells begin to divide and perform function until its death. Once the collection of organic matter is alive it will continue that way to its natural journey toward death. We say we believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Life begins at that first moment.

To the original post...no matter the order of the children...you will not have "better" children if you wait until you have your degree, you will have better children only if you are a parent who sacrifices your own dreams for that of your child.

Abortion is intrinsically selfish. Caring for a child is unselfish. Fact.

Scott Peck wrote " Life is difficult, and once we can understand life is difficult we can transcend it. " Having children is difficult but also transcendental. Through the pain and regret and limited resources, we learn our greatest strength, not earning money or degrees, or buying houses are being clever...our greatest strength is how much we can love and be loved. Abortion closes the door to love.

Abortion closes the door to the love of your own child.

Abortion closes the door to loving your own child.

How, How, how do you justify and rationalize killing and throwing away your own loving little child...your own daughter...your own son? Are you so IMPORTANT you can not be bothered by the temporary discomfort of parenthood?

Or is your child so important you will protect them no matter what?

This whole argument to justify an abortion is just plain dumb.

reply to post by saint4God


Again, if you believe in fate, then obviously the fetus was meant to die to bring about the people that were actually born.

How can you believe that we are all supposed to walk on destined paths, except for the people who you disagree with. And then what does that make their children in the future? Bastard kids who don't deserve to be alive?

That's extremely convenient for you. Distorting how fate works so that you can sustain your beliefs is not fair.

And I am glad to know that you are not pro-capital punishment.

reply to post by slicobacon


Exactly. That's an awesome point. It just adds an entirely new dimension to it.

reply to post by TheWorldNeedsPeace


Carlin was/is my Jesus. Everything he said rings truth to me.

reply to post by juveous


I don't know that I was necessarily talking about you, sorry if you took it that way.

However, I did not equate abortion to being a punishment - you did. I simply said it is extremely hypocritical to take a pro-life stance, and then advocate capital punishment.

- like this - If your parents aborted you instead, are there some people alive right now that would not have existed besides you?

I might not be following your question correctly. If my parents had aborted me, I do not believe anyone else would cease to exist who is currently alive (if that's what you mean).

There were no other children born after me.

So lets think about this. people exist today, people have had abortions, according to my logic, less people are alive because of it.

I would not argue that. There is certainly less people alive today due to abortion. Not what I am arguing at all.

And stop trying to win over this debate with "people wouldn't be the same" or "genetics would have altered others into a different person altogether"

That's where you insinuate that abortions are the effect to what you can be "thankful for" today. AKA - abortions are good. The very reason there are a LOT of people in here that don't appreciate that kind of rhetoric.

Sorry for the facts. I know it blows your brain apart to think about genetics and the endless possibilities, but the fact still remains the same.

If you could go back in time and stop abortion, you would literally be killing thousands of people who are alive today. You would be creating other life, but you would still be killing people.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


That's correct. If you killed someone, their spouse may go on to meet someone else and create a kid. Therefore, if you went back in time and stopped the murder from happening, you would be killing the children that were created after the murder.

That doesn't make the murder okay, and no one ever said it did.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Yeah, except that's not true. They are actual lives. If you are talking about in the future, then yes, it is theoretical, but you can also examine the present. There are people who would not exist if their mother had not had an abortion. Right now. Real people. They breathe and eat just like you.

You can't take away from their achievements and call them theoretical. They exist just as much as you do, and their accomplishments are just as valid.

You say abortion could kill a future Einstein, but that's just as theoretical also. You can't prove that any more than I can prove mine.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


Again, you are using the pro-life rhetoric that you were given without actually analyzing the situation. Fine, that's where you think life begins. Great story.

What does that have to do with the premise?

Again, the premise:

I guarantee you know someone who would not be alive if their mother did not have an abortion. I can almost promise it. If you went back in time and took away her ability to have an abortion, you literally kill the person that you know.

reply to post by Rockstrongo


I guess if you read the thread you'd know that no one is trying to justify abortion on this thread.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Again, if you believe in fate, then obviously the fetus was meant to die to bring about the people that were actually born.

Ah, but instead of the blood being on the hands of 'fate' or 'nature' it's on yours. Being that you did not create the being, you're guilty of trying to interfere with it.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
How can you believe that we are all supposed to walk on destined paths, except for the people who you disagree with.

I said this? Where?

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
And then what does that make their children in the future? Bastard kids who don't deserve to be alive?

Again, according to my beliefs they would exist as well. I'm not sure why this concept is difficult.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
That's extremely convenient for you. Distorting how fate works so that you can sustain your beliefs is not fair.

In what way have a distorted how fate works?