The Abortion Paradox

reply to post by psyko45


Yes, what ifs that are based off a hearsay are useless. This isn't based off of hearsay.

reply to post by Aermacchi

Life has VALUE to those who cherish it, so far mick, in spite of all the disclaimers that you are not using this thread as a platform to espouse the virtues of one of the most ghastly genocides we have ever witnessed and on which technically makes all those liberals who support it, right up therer with Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and the Khamir Rouge.

It's too bad that the United States government and SCOTUS completely disagree with you. Perhaps if you could somehow prove that they have souls you might get somewhere. Unfortunately, this government is secular so you might have a tough time there.

As for whether or not a fetus is a person... well according to the law, you aren't winning that battle either. Chastise me all you want, it's not my fault that your views don't line up with the US legal system.

You are right, they ought to call us, "Anti Baby Killers" as the Antithesis to the Pro Choice who use the word pro choice as if there was a mulligan or "do over" clause when presented with the consequences of their actions.

Whew. God, you should join the clergy because you can preach garbage with the best of them.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


You are right...I do not have younger siblings because my mother chose not to abort me. She had severe medical complications with my birth...the drs told her to abort, she did not and could not have more children.

My "pro life rhetoric" is the basics of human existence on this planet. Intrinsically parents are supposed to fight for and protect their children. It is survival. Children born to young mothers are statistically healthier than those born of older mothers. This is fact due to the reason a woman has a finite number of eggs to give and they age just as the rest of the mother ages.

Your argument is dar I say "evil" (meaning complete lack of love and empathy for others), ignorant of true human love, and self centered rationalization. It is the worst evidence of relativism I have encountered lately. Do you have children? do you now how cold and calculating you sound?

I am starting to get a little emotional and I am sorry.

You called the fact of cells dividing ...which in ANY organism is called lifeforce...pro life rhetoric. So ,my dear, what is life to you? How do you define Life...any living thing, what makes it living?

When we drop a drop of bleach on a germ on a petri dish and it stops dividing, growing and moving, have you stopped the life force of the germ?

If you pull a carrot out of the ground dehydrate it and it stops growing have you stopped its life force?

Why is it not the same with a human being? I really do not understand why you can not see it is alive and growing and must be killed to be aborted? Please explain to me, how you could justify that to have smarter richer more worldly kids later?

Where do you think that lifeforce that was moving and dividing those cells goes? Does it just disappear, or does it go to heaven as a soul? and if it does...does that me you have committed a sin? Or do you believe sin does not exist?

reply to post by Irish M1ck


The definition of hearsay doesnt work with what were discussing...please explain..

The statement in the op is true...there are people who wouldnt exist if others hadnt been aborted....So the post is not using this as a platform to advocate abortion. Any response that states an opinion on the abortion issue is actually off topic.

reply to post by Aermacchi
January 22, 2009 is the annual March for Life in Washington. This commemorates the anniversary of Roe VS. Wade

A society is only as good and as strong as how it treats its weakest members, babies, children the elderly. I hope we all strive to love the weak among us in our communities...and if anyone is considering an abortion also consider the beautiful face, smile hand and toes of your unborn baby. Your baby loves you more than you can imagine.

To the OP's original post...I paraphrase"If we eliminate the babies who come at inconvient times, we can enjoy the children who come later more"

Well, why not eliminate the poor elderly suffering in nursing homes?

Eliminate everyone on death row right away...don't have costly appeals and prison stays.

Eliimnate all the mentally handicapped...I mean really what can they contribute anyway, and we would have so many more resources for strong beautiful people who would be born later.

Lets also eliminate children with bad grades...they suck good education away from our bright kids.

Lets also eliminate fat people because they eat too much.


Oh what a slippery slope...defend life!!!!! Do not defend killing!!!

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
How is it an alternate reality? It's #*$&#$(*# science man. That's all it is. They wouldn't exist because the odds of the same sperm and egg coming together are next to none. If you factor in total genetic make up and timing... the odds are next to none.

MICK! MAN GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD! THE GENETIC ARGUMENT DOES NOT HOLD UP BECAUSE YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SPERM IS GOING TO BE USED ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ALIVE YET TO KNOW IN THE FIRST PLACE DAMN IT. Assuming the consequent assuming the consequent! Wrap your mind around that!

To even think you can postulate a criteria of probability regarding your DNA, THAT DNA would have to exist in the person who is now the DNA of the child living and self aware of their own life where that life now assumes that IT was the one that was next on the life list, but who writes this list MICK?? Did you know what your DNA was before you existed so that when you did you could use it in a fallacious straw man argument where the you that you think SHOULD be has to be the one that had the benefit of knowing his own existence! If this were true,,,, NO NO NO ,, Change of tactics,, I got an idea.

Mick lets just take this one step at a time shall we? Now I am sure you have heard of the "Scientific Method" correct?

Originally posted by Astyanax



The Way to Prove "Abortion Did It"
What ADI* proponents like Mick need to prove that Abortion is the reason he is alive today is to test the veracity of the theory and to see if it can be falsified. The standard steps taken in the Scientific Method go like this:

1. The theory of ADI whereby its postulated that many people are living today because of an abortion , has never been able satisfactorily to explain the following phenomenon...that mick was born as a direct effect or result of an abortion
   
   
2. This is because... (scientifically valid argument here)
   
   
3. Instead, we contend that the phenomenon can best be explained as the result of Divine Fiat, because... or happenstance, or Mom just felt like getting knocked up again. (moms in general) (another scientifically valid argument here).
   
   
4. This can be tested by means of the following experiment... (Exhaustive description of experiment, including an explanation of how it addresses the problem. Note that the experiment will have to be ingeniously designed to eliminate all other explanations for the phenomenon of mick being born apart from ADI).
   
   
5. If our hypothesis is true -- and only if it is true -- the following results may be expected from the experiment.
   
   
6. We ran the experiment. Here are the results. They tally well with our expectations (see #5 above).
   
   
7. Therefore we conclude that ADI.
   
   
8. We invite others to assess our arguments, repeat our experiment, and verify the results for themselves.
   
   

If If Mick or anyone else can come up with this or something like that, then then Micks argument would prove a worthy Scientific theory that is testable and falsifiable.

BE ADVISED: Nobody -- not one single individual among all the writhing, pullulating hordes of Scientists and / or Philosphers has ever been able to prove a theory like this without assuming the consequent. So remember to be Scientifically accurate one must NOT be intellectually dishonest by using your own frame of reference as an advantage. Remember when talking about the person not existing and those who are alive today because of ADI, it is imperative you do this as a blank slate. You can't even know your name much less your DNA

Good luck -

Special thanks to astyanax for the step by step scientific test

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


Do you cry every time you eat a chicken egg? That's life, and you just killed it an put it in your stomach. I guess it just depends on if you actually think we are some sort of divine creature placed on this Earth to rule.

If you really want to separate us from other animals, it clearly has to be done through our conscience, memories, speech, and overall intelligence. A fetus has none of the above, and is not capable of having those.

Call me evil, but you are calling most of this country evil (you know, even those pseudo-conservatives who actually support this act of evil genocide!).

And where do you people constantly get the argument that they will have smarter, richer kids in the end? Is that something in your manuscript?

Also, I don't believe in souls, for the record, nor any other mythology that was created thousands of years ago to fill in the gaps that science left.


Back on subject:

So you believe what then? What do you believe about those people who are alive today only because their mother had an abortion?

The op doesnt really state an opinion either way, though it indirectly incites those who may be pro-life. INDIRECTLY. My hyp....poster is using this forum to discredit pro-lifers with vast knowledge of abortion law and pro choice argument to make someone close feel better or to impress them because of a romantic interest that is not reciprocated. "what if" a woman the poster loves or the poster themself had an abortion and is desperately seeking forgiveness for something done that haunts every waking moment of thier life? Maybe the non existent spirit of a dead fetus speaks to the poster in dreams.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


A chicken egg you get from the grocery store is not fertilized.
They don't keep the roosters near the hens.
If it has blood in it, then it's fertilized!

reply to post by Clearskies


I don't suppose that would make much of a difference since we eat the chicken alsoreply to post by psyko45


You are really reaching.

Seriously though, pray for me. I need Jesus in my life.

[edit on 1/21/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck

Seriously though, pray for me. I need Jesus in my life.

What makes you think he wants you?

reply to post by Irish M1ck


I know a guy in Costa Rica named Jesus...Im sure he woluldnt mind. No prayer needed. Just marry him. ......I mean "what if you did?"


Or maybe the op is a hardline pro-lifer subversively seeking out allies for a clinic bombing. What better way to sniff out the fundamentalist pro-lifers than to act like an educated pro-choice advocate.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck

Also, I don't believe in souls, for the record, nor any other mythology that was created thousands of years ago to fill in the gaps that science left.

Sure you do Mick,, you believe in the abortion fairy that snuffs out life so the "Chosen" ones may live! ****AS SEEN ON ATS! ****

reply to post by Aermacchi

What makes you think he wants you?

I think you should read your texts a little more closely.

Sure you do Mick,, you believe in the abortion fairy that snuffs out life so the "Chosen" ones may live! ****AS SEEN ON ATS! ****

A misquote and a straw man from Aermacchi. Go figure.

You, sir, are the king of argumentative fallacies.

reply to post by psyko45

Or maybe the op is a hardline pro-lifer subversively seeking out allies for a clinic bombing. What better way to sniff out the fundamentalist pro-lifers than to act like an educated pro-choice advocate.

Why are you telling me my own intentions? You do realize that I am the OP, right?

[edit on 1/21/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by RFBurns
Some will still argue that adoption would have been the proper choice instead of the abortion.

I sort of follow that idea and would rather see more choices made to that option than the other. Even under circumstances of rape or unplanned pregnancies. It resolves the issue of taking any life at all. It offers life.


Cheers!!!!

Well, if abortion was legal, there would have been 36,000,000 more children that they would have to house, and I'm not sure if they could have handled that.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck

[I think you should read your texts a little more closely.

Me?? The reason I ask, is because I thought you didn't believe in God

Sure you do Mick,, you believe in the abortion fairy that snuffs out life so the "Chosen" ones may live! ****AS SEEN ON ATS! ****

A misquote and a straw man from Aermacchi. Go figure.

You, sir, are the king of argumentative fallacies.

Umm Mick,,I wasn't quoting you unless you are worried they are as lousy at recognizing a little levity, or that their really IS an abortion fairy.

Straw man? The only straw man I see is the one where you tried to suggest something obviously said facetiously was a serious answer and your extraordinary uncanny ability to exploit the ,, what did you call it again??

Oh yeah "argumentative fallacy"
(Psssst,, umm,, I think Mick meant "logical fallacy" )

reply to post by psyko45

Or maybe the op is a hardline pro-lifer subversively seeking out allies for a clinic bombing. What better way to sniff out the fundamentalist pro-lifers than to act like an educated pro-choice advocate.

Why are you telling me my own intentions? You do realize that I am the OP, right?

[edit on 1/21/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Only problem with that is when he got to the oxymoron "an educated pro-choice advocate"





[edit on 22-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
So basically, by some miracle, if Michelle is born, the other two get to live. However, if Michelle is aborted, she does not get any miracles, and the mother goes to "jail" (aka hell)?

Jail is the emotional suffering and scars that come from having an abortion. That's 'jail' enough. After some years she may 'get out' or grieve less the decision.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Seriously though, pray for me. I need Jesus in my life.

I will do so for you Irish M1ck, it is a awesome difference that I didn't fully comprehend before I'd asked him into mine.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
What makes you think he wants you?

He does.

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." - 1 Timothy 2:3-6

If you claim to be saved by him, you should know this as well...and apology would be in order to M1ck.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Only problem with that is when he got to the oxymoron "an educated pro-choice advocate"

Geez Aermacchi, cut it out. Seriously. Before hitting post, take twenty seconds, breathe, stand up and walk around for a bit, sit down and backspace over anything that looks like an insult.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by saint4God]

If you do not believe in souls then...game over. We will be unable to understand each other. Your mythology of a sinless,guiltless world where abortion helps is false in my paradigm.

So you ask me what I think of the kids whose mother aborted their brothers and sisters....I believe the aborted children are in heaven waiting for them, praying for them and loving them from afar, hoping for the day the family will be reunited in the light of God.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by juveous

 

How is it an alternate reality? It's #*$&#$(*# science man. That's all it is. They wouldn't exist because the odds of the same sperm and egg coming together are next to none. If you factor in total genetic make up and timing... the odds are next to none.

It's not a separate reality, it's just looking at something with objectivity.

Re-read my post. If you go back in time (not physically, I mean hypothetically rewind time), all everyone in 2009 - basically don't exist.
you can't kill them. period. now in this time period any change will effect an entire different reality.

"hey if she didn't have an abortion, that significant person wouldn't have existed"
but rather - If she didn't have an abortion, that might have been one more person that could have been significant to me.

But in my theory that's not possible. Scientifically, that's not possible. The person you know, would not exist anymore.

scientifically the person you know is irrelavent. your theory is very flawed in connecting instances of our time-continuum.

Would someone explain to me scientifically how it is even possible that the same person would be born?

ahhh! stop it! think about your scenario! - you keep asking everyone to hypothetically go back in time and reverse someones abortion - but then you keep saying that people scientifically would not be the same and I'm telling you there is no one to compare to if you changed the past! all that exists is in the present and past - so if you change the past, and then fast forward to 2009 again, the only way you could see a difference is if you were God. us, people on earth will not see anything different as we only truly experience one lineage of time (unless you know some people in parallel universes by all means )

so again unless you are asking people in here to just play God, how can you say that the people that are alive today would be "killed"? they wouldn't exist, i'm not arguing that, you are the one connecting the two time-lines and comparing them to find a "paradox" even when you think about it scientifically no one is dying.

edit/trump card - m1ck if everyone in the past didn't have an abortion how do you know anyone that exist today would be here? You, me, anybody, every event effects the future now matter how subtle remember?
rewind a bit. I doubt there would be anyone. it would be an entirely different experience. period. no paradox, just life as always.



[edit on 22-1-2009 by juveous]