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The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?
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reply to post by edmc^2
I've made up my mind because after a preponderance of the evidence and letting plenty of theists speak their piece none have adequately demonstrated the Bible as anything more than the flawed word of men. My opinion is one based upon years of studying the Bible as a Christian as well as several years as a non-Christian.
You make it sound as if I'd known this would be the outcome from the start, on the contrary when I set out to read the Bible years ago I was still a Christian and thought it would strengthen my faith.
Add all the apologist links you want it doesn't matter, the Bible speaks for itself and fails to be the Word of God in spectacular fashion.
[edit on 11-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]
I got more source to quote but since you've already made up your mind like the OP it's useless to add them.
I've made up my mind because after a preponderance of the evidence and letting plenty of theists speak their piece none have adequately demonstrated the Bible as anything more than the flawed word of men. My opinion is one based upon years of studying the Bible as a Christian as well as several years as a non-Christian.
You make it sound as if I'd known this would be the outcome from the start, on the contrary when I set out to read the Bible years ago I was still a Christian and thought it would strengthen my faith.
Add all the apologist links you want it doesn't matter, the Bible speaks for itself and fails to be the Word of God in spectacular fashion.
[edit on 11-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]
reply to post by edmc^2
My bible does not include notes on the side to tell me which passages to take literally and which to take figuratively. How do you know?
My bible does not include notes on the side to tell me which passages to take literally and which to take figuratively. How do you know?
reply to post by edmc^2
I can pass judgment on Yahweh, he is, after all, a literary character and has never been demonstrated as anything more than that.
When God violates his own commandments he is committing sin. Sin is sin end of story and God should really be at a higher standard than man when it comes to such things. God should not command his own people to sin.
Nice job bringing Job into this, you are aware that what God allows Satan to do to Job is wrong right? Even God admits he is incited against Job "without reason or cause" in Job 2:3
I can pass judgment on Yahweh, he is, after all, a literary character and has never been demonstrated as anything more than that.
When God violates his own commandments he is committing sin. Sin is sin end of story and God should really be at a higher standard than man when it comes to such things. God should not command his own people to sin.
Nice job bringing Job into this, you are aware that what God allows Satan to do to Job is wrong right? Even God admits he is incited against Job "without reason or cause" in Job 2:3
Take your pick and which 'day' do you think the genesis "day" applies to. www.thefreedictionary.com...
I'm not the one that believes the Genesis account of creation so why would I take my pick?
true Bible students know the meaning.
Who are the 'true' bible students? Jehovahs Witnesses?
I don't see any of the people you quoted as saying anything about Noahs gene pool?
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by edmc^2
but since you've already made up your mind like the OP it's useless to add them.
Now you see how the OP feels at least. Mabey we have meeting grounds?
Just as though your mind is made up....eventually others will find it useless to converse on the topic.
All my best though, to all
Made up my mind? Not really, I'm still learning quite a lot and my mind can change if something that I learned is wrong. For a mind that is laready made up is a close mind.
As you've seen in my posts' my reasonigns and claims or opinions are founded and supported by verifiable evidence, historical facts, biblical facts and scientific proof. They are based on solid ground and accurate, logical reasonings not just conjectures and wild opinions and blind faith.
ty,
edmc2
Originally posted by lifecitizen
Take your pick and which 'day' do you think the genesis "day" applies to. www.thefreedictionary.com...
I'm not the one that believes the Genesis account of creation so why would I take my pick?
true Bible students know the meaning.
Who are the 'true' bible students? Jehovahs Witnesses?
I don't see any of the people you quoted as saying anything about Noahs gene pool?
Out of all what I posted - that's the only one you pick?
No Lifecitizen, anyone can be a true Bible student if they have a humble and receptive heart, willing to learn, because God grants wisdom to those who are willing to listen to a loving father.
“Since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.”—1 CORINTHIANS 1:21.
Thus if you have the right kind of heart that God is looking for - you can be a true Bible student.
ty,
edmc2
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by edmc^2
I must be blind
I mean no ill will
None taken Leo,
I also been thinking about your signature:
"For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man."-Gospels of Peace
Who wrote it?
Originally posted by edmc^2
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by edmc^2
I must be blind
I mean no ill will
None taken Leo,
I also been thinking about your signature:
"For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man."-Gospels of Peace
Who wrote it?
I think more importantly is...does it matter who wrote it?
Edit to not leave you hanging....it is acclaimed to be words of Jesus.
[edit on 11-7-2010 by LeoVirgo]
How do we ever really know who wrote what and who said what....we place faith in what men tells us about things written in the past or of the past.
This is where I find the words wise....'discern all things, through the HolySpirit'.
What nature is holy....what is the nature of spirit?
This is where I find the words wise....'discern all things, through the HolySpirit'.
What nature is holy....what is the nature of spirit?
reply to post by K J Gunderson
Ah, thanks for that well thought out and interesting answer to my serious and actual question. I really enjoy the three superstar Christians on this board and their ability to have a real and decent discussion. Thanks so much. Now I feel like going to church. I wonder if the church will ignore questions, attack and lie, or just shout bible quotes at me?
Ah, thanks for that well thought out and interesting answer to my serious and actual question. I really enjoy the three superstar Christians on this board and their ability to have a real and decent discussion. Thanks so much. Now I feel like going to church. I wonder if the church will ignore questions, attack and lie, or just shout bible quotes at me?
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
...This is where I find the words wise....'discern all things, through the HolySpirit'.
What nature is holy....what is the nature of spirit?
agree as for the holy spirit -- "“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.
gdnite...
ty,
edmc2
reply to post by edmc^2
Except that there are millions of human beings who claim to have the Holy Spirit and many of them interpret the Bible differently. For instance before I left the church I was considered a spirit filled Christian, I could speak in tongues and yet look at this thread. Did the Holy Spirit teach me the Bible is filled with BS?
It seems to me that the old, "Only those with the spirit can interpret correctly" is an absurd cop-out and nothing more.
Except that there are millions of human beings who claim to have the Holy Spirit and many of them interpret the Bible differently. For instance before I left the church I was considered a spirit filled Christian, I could speak in tongues and yet look at this thread. Did the Holy Spirit teach me the Bible is filled with BS?
It seems to me that the old, "Only those with the spirit can interpret correctly" is an absurd cop-out and nothing more.
reply to post by Titen-Sxull
I think it depends on what you are ready to see. I dont think the Spirit teaches through a book....I think it teaches through life itself. Seeking life in all things, eventually shows a oneness in all things.
But I only claim this as my own experiences...and admit that there are things I am not ready for that I cant seek right now due to my own earthly attachments to things.
I think the more you live a life of solitude with nature....the more you can 'see'.
I dont try though to push this to others as a truth....I dont expect nor should anyone...take it as truth. Everyone should walk their own path and what ever they conclude on their path is OK.
If you think all of the natures and wisdom of the Spirit are in a book....then you wont see anything past the book.
I think it depends on what you are ready to see. I dont think the Spirit teaches through a book....I think it teaches through life itself. Seeking life in all things, eventually shows a oneness in all things.
But I only claim this as my own experiences...and admit that there are things I am not ready for that I cant seek right now due to my own earthly attachments to things.
I think the more you live a life of solitude with nature....the more you can 'see'.
I dont try though to push this to others as a truth....I dont expect nor should anyone...take it as truth. Everyone should walk their own path and what ever they conclude on their path is OK.
If you think all of the natures and wisdom of the Spirit are in a book....then you wont see anything past the book.
reply to post by LeoVirgo
Everything is interconnected, we are part of the cosmos and the cosmos is part of us. Carl Sagan said: "The Cosmos is also within us, we're made of star-stuff. We are a way the Cosmos can know itself"
One doesn't need religion or even spirituality to see the interconnected nature and the fact we are all part of this Universal web.
There is a danger, with Christianity in particular, in believing ourselves better than the animals or as having dominion over this Earth as part of some divine edict. In truth we are animals just like all the other animals on Earth, and our intelligence doesn't give us the right to destroy and decimate nature - it gives us responsibility to take care of this world as best we can.
Everything is interconnected, we are part of the cosmos and the cosmos is part of us. Carl Sagan said: "The Cosmos is also within us, we're made of star-stuff. We are a way the Cosmos can know itself"
One doesn't need religion or even spirituality to see the interconnected nature and the fact we are all part of this Universal web.
There is a danger, with Christianity in particular, in believing ourselves better than the animals or as having dominion over this Earth as part of some divine edict. In truth we are animals just like all the other animals on Earth, and our intelligence doesn't give us the right to destroy and decimate nature - it gives us responsibility to take care of this world as best we can.
reply to post by Titen-Sxull
may be in the Christianity you percieve but the one I see is a Way so that all our natural selves don't destroy each other, remember if He was a natural man also who did no violence looking at the invisible Spirit as His guide (in him), why did the natural minded man(only) murder him and what hope do or would you and future children have? war?
may be in the Christianity you percieve but the one I see is a Way so that all our natural selves don't destroy each other, remember if He was a natural man also who did no violence looking at the invisible Spirit as His guide (in him), why did the natural minded man(only) murder him and what hope do or would you and future children have? war?
The problem I have with the term "Bible" is that it includes doctrines which are fundamentally antithetical[/].
I would say that the Torah and the Prophets contain Revelations. I would say tha the Gospels and the Revelation of John contain Revelations.
But I would argue that the writings of the Pharisee Paul are not merely a contradiction of Revelation; but, in fact, turn the Teaching of Jesus upside down.
Paul was a Pharisee and taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as the doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave; just like the Pharisees who conspired to have Jesus murdered.
Jesus (and the Gnostics) as well as Isaiah and Daniel and Malachi, by the way on the other hand, taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'; Jesus implying not merely once, but twice in the Gospel of Matthew that John the Baptist was Elijah 'raised from the dead', and whose arrival was absolutely necessary if Jesus was to be considered as the messiah.
If anyone is interested in this specific issue with regards to whether or not 'the Bible' is the Word of God or the word of man, I have started a thread entitled "Resurrection" & 'Rebirth'.
Michael Cecil
I would say that the Torah and the Prophets contain Revelations. I would say tha the Gospels and the Revelation of John contain Revelations.
But I would argue that the writings of the Pharisee Paul are not merely a contradiction of Revelation; but, in fact, turn the Teaching of Jesus upside down.
Paul was a Pharisee and taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as the doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave; just like the Pharisees who conspired to have Jesus murdered.
Jesus (and the Gnostics) as well as Isaiah and Daniel and Malachi, by the way on the other hand, taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'; Jesus implying not merely once, but twice in the Gospel of Matthew that John the Baptist was Elijah 'raised from the dead', and whose arrival was absolutely necessary if Jesus was to be considered as the messiah.
If anyone is interested in this specific issue with regards to whether or not 'the Bible' is the Word of God or the word of man, I have started a thread entitled "Resurrection" & 'Rebirth'.
Michael Cecil
reply to post by Michael Cecil
LOL, So you're saying Jesus said John the Baptist "was Elijah raised from the dead"? Will you please provide chapter and verse where Elijah dies???????
LOL, So you're saying Jesus said John the Baptist "was Elijah raised from the dead"? Will you please provide chapter and verse where Elijah dies???????
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Michael Cecil
LOL, So you're saying Jesus said John the Baptist "was Elijah raised from the dead"? Will you please provide chapter and verse where Elijah dies???????
Well, first of all, Sir, this is nothing to "laugh out loud" about.
Millions of Jews have already been slaughtered because of the pagan- Egyptian-Pharisaical doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave.
And that loss of life is nothing compared to what will happen during the "time of trouble".
In any case, it makes no difference what I say about this. It was Jesus who pointed out that John the Baptist was 'the Elijah who is to return'.
But it gets even worse: Mohammed was Elijah and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead'; as is very clearly implied by the Revelations in the Koran (although unbeknownst to most Muslim religious 'authorities'.)
As to where it says that Elijah died...
That's not my problem.
There are probably at least billions of people who have died and it has never been written down anywhere that they died or that they even lived. But if someone asks me whether someone from 600 years ago is still alive, I will conclude that, more than likely, no.
Even more important, if you read the question of the apostles quite clearly, the implication is that John the Baptist has to be Elijah returned (or 'raised from the dead') or it is simply not possible for Jesus to be the messiah.
I suggest that you read the passages for yourself; rather than through the filters of the Christian theologians.
(Oh, by the way, sorry for the continued underlining in a previous post. Have not yet figured out how to publish an edited version. I only get edit or preview choices.)
Michael Cecil
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Michael Cecil
LOL, So you're saying Jesus said John the Baptist "was Elijah raised from the dead"? Will you please provide chapter and verse where Elijah dies???????
Oh, by the way, as to your quotation of Paul...
Not a good sign.
Paul was a Pharisee.
He believed in the doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave--just like the Egyptians; who were pagans (even worse than "heretics").
He turned the Teaching of Jesus on the "resurrection" upside down; which is why there are so many hundreds of millions of Christians, while Jesus said that the road to Life is "narrow".
Michael Cecil
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