Israel-If This Thread Doesn't Open You're Eyes,Then Nothing Will.

Been holding my tongue lately on the many threads that comprise this subject because I'm only interested in exposing the root problem, which of course no one here is addressing... I'm convinced history will show (unequivocally, as universal common knowledge) that the very existence of Abrahamic religions, more than anything else, is THE problem not only in Israel-West Bank-Gaza, but the biggest one worldwide at this time. Christianity is no exception. They're all fear and ignorance-generating machines; effectively solely. Sorry if this is considered trolling by whomever is this primitive age. Cheers.

reply to post by johnny2127


Notice you said "Hamas" and not "Palestinians".

So if this action is correct in your view, Britain would have had every right during the 70's and 80's to bomb all hell out of Ireland, regardless of the civilian population?
Oh, wait, that's different. Yeah, it's different because Ireland isn't a prison where the people are subjected to the whims of the Israel government perhaps?

If Israel really wanted to end the Hamas violence, they could have. It is much easier to infiltrate an organization and dismantle it through intelligence and well-placed operatives.

But they don't do this, no country does, and why?
Because every nation needs an enemy they seemingly "cannot control" in order to excuse military action.
The same way the USA used AQ to bomb Afghanistan and then Iraq.

What better way is there to eradicate a nation and seize the land, while convincing your people that you are working to protect them (thereby securing an election win)?

This slaughter is about winning an election, maintaining the battle for decades to come, and using the next generation of Hamas fighters created through this action to excuse anything they want to do in the future against that nation.

I can tell you what is going to happen.
Israel will not beat Hamas. Hamas will grow on the orphans created by Israel.
The election will go forward and the Israeli people will vote for a government willing to attack Gaza and "defend them from terrorism".
Then, and only then, will Israel pull out of Gaza under international pressure, and the terrorism against Israel will continue.
Then, they'll do this alll over again when the Israeli government needs to convince its people that it is "fighting terrorism to protect them".

How on earth do you end a terrorist organisation by bombing thousands of people? You don't, you only create more of those willing to fight against you. That is why the actions of Israel are so deeply horrendous. It makes it clear that they have no desire to "end the terrorism", they want to create more of it.

I for one will never again have any sympathy for Israel.
There are no words to adequately describe how I feel about that nation right now. And if I did use words that even try to describe my animosity toward that nation, I fear I would be banned.

Nothing, not even a thousand pebble-like Hamas rockets raining down on a corner of Israel right now, would excuse their actions.


In the words of the great Stephen Fry "Religion, # it"

reply to post by magicmushroom


hamas is the ones to blame, & israel is doing what any sensible country would do to stop terrorists.
israel england supports your actions

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Nothing, not even a thousand pebble-like Hamas rockets raining down on a corner of Israel right now, would excuse their actions.

Ok "bigshot" where do you live so HAMAS can send a thousand rockets your way? How about 8 years of constant threat of that lone rocket with your name on it, like many soldiers in many wars who KNOW there is a bullit out there with their name on it?

Gaza, West bank, Syria, Iran, (heck all ishmael nations) should worry the IDF has had enough..............


As far as the OP and his pictures, God bless the children in the pics......

Judaism is just another elitist driven religious structure, where the broader population are herded into the agendas of a small elite. The people for the most part have allegience to the system. The people that run, control and setup the system have allegience to themselves. They are the same people that have setup nazism and south african apartheid. They are, probably, the same people that setup feudalism. They are possibly the same people that ruled babylon. This is an old political "science". Rule by conflict, rule by discontent, ordo ab chaos.

It dosen't make sense to hate the people, they all suffer from the same human problem, which is the tendency for a sheep based mindset and a lack of healthy skepticism of the motivations of the ruling classes (if they even know there is a ruling class). Over time things tend to get better, the web of lies is lifting. So let's be positive and see the current gaza crisis not as a drop into chaos, but as growing pains, as an opportunity to flush out the parasites that profit from it.

Just a suggestion to all. Why dont we forget they are Israelis, Jews, Pallestinians, Iraqis, Indians, Pakistanis, Russians, Georgians or whatever.

Lets all get together as the human race and stop all wars now. Its simple remove nationalism, patriotism and religion from the languages of all people. Call ourselves humanity, stop killing each other, especially our lifes blood, the children.....and start to awaken to the political greed that fuels all confrontation between peoples.

Respects

[edit on 5-1-2009 by captiva]

Instead of blaming religion or countries why don't we put the blame where it belongs? It is the individual men women and children (yes children) who think that rules don't appy to them. It is the individuals who twist religion or patriotism to their end goals. It is pride and greed that drive these individuals. Most of those involved in the fight (on both sides) are nothing more than brain washed cannon fodder.

There will always be wars because there will always be arrogant greedy people in power.

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Nothing, not even a thousand pebble-like Hamas rockets raining down on a corner of Israel right now, would excuse their actions.

Ok "bigshot" where do you live so HAMAS can send a thousand rockets your way? How about 8 years of constant threat of that lone rocket with your name on it, like many soldiers in many wars who KNOW there is a bullit out there with their name on it?

Gaza, West bank, Syria, Iran, (heck all ishmael nations) should worry the IDF has had enough..............


As far as the OP and his pictures, God bless the children in the pics......

I'll ignore the stupid religious discussion here. As no one organized religion is ANY better than another. They are all extremists fighting for superiority where none can ever exist.

You have to have some intelligence and think about the actual mathematics of this.

What is the chance of being killed by Hamas?
One in a million, or one in ten?

How many Israeli people have actually been killed or wounded by Hamas rockets, considering the population of Israel.

I do not believe that Hamas should be allowed to continue. Nor do I accept that any Israeli should have to live under fear of rockets coming out of Gaza.
But there are other ways to fight this and secure a lasting solution.

How on Earth is this action going to secure peace? How is creating a thousand more Hamas terrorists going to help the Israeli nation?

All of those people being killed in Gaza by Israel are leaving behind vengeful and angry relatives and children. What do you think their opinion of Israel is right now?

Even if they hated Hamas for what they were doing in the name of the Palestinians before, they'll hate Israel now.

You are not going to stop the terrorism against Israel by bombing Gaza, you are going to make a thousand more people ready and willing to get revenge.

If you bombed my country to fight a terrorist organization and killed my family, I'd be the first name on the list to come over there and kick your ass in any way I could. Would you be any different?

reply to post by captiva


In the real world there will always be people wanting to kill, control and make money from wars.

Your idea of a world does not exist in a world with america.

Why the arab governments ever sided with america is a joke, did they have no intuition at all.

Syria: Israel proved it doesn't want peace

Foreign Minister Moallem visits Turkey, calls on international community to put Israeli leaders on trial over 'war crimes'

"I came to Turkey to discuss ways to bring about an immediate ceasefire, a removal of the blockade and the opening of all crossings, as well as finding a mechanism to achieve these goals. I stress to you that our opinions are similar and that we have formed a joint stance."

"Through this criminal aggression Israel has proved that it does not want peace. It's a country based on aggression, killing, war crimes and mass destruction. What peace are they talking about in the face of this aggression?"

Turkish Foreign Minister Babacan called on Israel to hold its fire immediately.

www.ynetnews.com...


Israel rebuffs calls for Gaza border observers

JERUSALEM, Jan 5 (Reuters) - Israel on Monday rebuffed European proposals for international observers in the Gaza Strip after any ceasefire, pushing instead for teams that will help search out and seal off tunnels that could allow Hamas to rearm.

www.alertnet.org...

Click here for more information.

what exactly is a "Jew" ? and how do you know if you are a "Jew" ?

I don't really have time to read all of this, but this is so so sad. Maybe it's just me, but all of this talk of war and irresponsible leaders not sticking up for their actions is growing old. The news is reeking of its stank.

Good thread, and it certainly helped clear some things up.

Cm

Originally posted by Bramble Iceshimmer
Why all the bleeding hearts for the arabs? They a little more than animals. They mistreat females by beating hem, not allowing education, make them wear stupid clothes and won't let them own property to name a few things. They follow a false god and have a really stupid religion. What's with that kneeling on a rug several times a day. They don't even know how to shake hands. If Israel has to thin the herd to get to the terrorist then so be it. The terrorist aren't man enough to stand up to Israel without hiding behind womens skirts.

And finally, the real God gave that land to Israel thousands of years ago, just because it was unoccupied by Jews for a while didn't give arabs title to it. Israel has a right to protect its people.

Oh my, such ignorance in so few words!

I take it your religious beliefs are "the one true teaching of God!"

Complete and utter tosh.

You may as well be asking why millions of American parents genitally mutilate their children.

I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you rally are so ignorant.
Every religion has its practices, and who are you to say that those practices are wrong? I'd say that going into a building with a big cross on it every Sunday and singing depressing songs to a statue of a man being tortured on a plank is just as insanely ridiculous as kneeling on a rug and praying.

Besides, even without religious connotations and obvious religious hatred, the actions being perpetrated against CHILDREN and innocent people in Palestine is blatantly abhorrent. Israel is acting entirely violently against another nation, nothing about their action can be defended or justified in ANY way, or by any means.

As time goes on, I am finding myself more and more angry with both the Israeli government, and their international allies.

Given the option, I would gladly go to London tomorrow and spend the next week protesting outside the Israeli embassy.
Our country should be expelling their government representatives from Britain immediately, and every other nation should be doing the same as a mark of protest.

Only through making extreme and clear protests nationally can anything be done to make these actions stop.
Sitting around a table and debating does nothing to ease the suffering of innocent people.

plain and simple....

Each one of these quotes were taken out of context.
I would be more then happy to send quotes from Hamas, the Iranian president and most Arab leaders and you will find those quotes made recently much more shocking.

I've read most of these quotes before and in context and I found them no more justified in anyway. Please don't make sweeping statements like this - if you think the leaders mentioned have been misquoted - please go through the points and tell us why they are misleading - I'll gladly listen and I'm even open to changing my mind if you have a good argument


Also, quotes from Iran are irrelevant seeing as yet they are not a part of this conflict and have very little to do with the Palestinian situation in Israel.

There are many people in the world who hate Israel and speak publicly about it - this doesn't somehow lessen the legitimacy of the Palestinians claims of abuse.

I think we are all aware of the kind of things Hammas has said in the past - the difference is that Hammas doesn't deny it - Israel does. Hammas don't claim to be a peaceful faction and don't tell lies to manipulate the UN/US. Indeed they have been isolated from both in terms of diplomatic representation for as long as I can remember.

Hammas say dumb things - that's not up for dispute - but then Hammas is 'the best of a bad situation' - Hammas isn't formed by career statesmen and politicians - it doesn't have a team of speechwriters putting together every word they speak - it doesn't practice PR and psy-ops to present itself as something it isn't.

I've also noticed a lack of people who stand by Israels present actions responding to the quotes above - hmmm I can't think why.

If you stand by Israel and - in these forums on previous posts on this topic - have defended Israel as a peaceful nation with no genocidal intent - please respond to each one of these quotes and show why it is incorrect.

This is a humanitarian crisis - even if we put the politics aside (which I don't think we need to) - the killing of 500 people - by means of advanced bombs, a professional army, airforce - on a nation that has no means to defend itself - against 5 or 6 deaths that occurred through the use of primitive weapons being fired by people whom in all honesty we are only 'told' are Hammas - do we have any proof? These weapons could be in all honesty anyone in Gaza - especially seeing as the first attacks were home-made rockets.

Once more - I invite you to respond if you can justify a death toll of 500:5 as anything other than murder (leaving politics aside - please tell me when something like this is justified - EVER)?

reply to post by St Udio

Whom started what and when & why

Thanks for your post. It is the best summary so far of the background. It shows how the rest of us share the blame for getting this issue started.
My guess is that a lot of countries wanted there to be an Israel so that Jews could go there instead of being a too strong element in their own territories.
It was a way of politely getting rid of the Jews.
Ironic that in today's world, a nation based on a single ethnicity and religion is seen as politically incorrect and passe'.
At this point it is impossible to backtrack to the way things were before. The Jews have their country, their territory, their wealth, their might and they are not about to give it up, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to support their unbridled expansion. I believe we give them way too much support and that needs to stop.

reply to post by detachedindividual


Detachedindividual, as I said in my post, it was not meant to be a pro-Israel defense. More of pointing out the hypocrisy of many people on here that never condemned Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists for the thousands of Israeli's they have killed. Most of the anti-Israeli posters on ATS never can bring themselves to condemn Hamas or the others. Why not? I am just pointing out the lack of equality in the condemnations and the hatred that many show towards Israel. Many people on here defend Palestine and Hamas and nothing militarily that Israel could do would ever be right.

Again, this is just all very hypocritical. Hamas and other militant Palestinian terrorists killed Jews for decades and the international defense and out cry to stop was nowhere as strong as todays out cry for Israel to stop. Just all very hypocritical.

Here's what people don't talk about much. Before this most recent military action against Palestine, the murder of Israeli's was celebrated in the middle east. Every time a suicide bomber detonated himself or herself and killed civilians, many middle eastern nations celebrated. Parades were held for the 'martyrs' that killed the impure Jewish civilians. Is this right of course not. BUT WHY WON'T ANY OF THE ANTI-ISRAELI POSTERS EVEN ADMIT THAT HAMAS' ACTIONS ARE AND WERE HORRIBLE AS WELL?!?! You don't have to be supportive of Israel's current actions to condemn Hamas and terrorists' actions

reply to post by MischeviousElf


That photo bothers me... It honestly made me hurt... Children putting their names on bombs to be drop on other children..

Now I dont give a # what you belive or which side you take.. Ive tried my very best to just stay out of this. I stand on the 3rd side.
Keeping my mouth shut, out of fear of being attacked for what I feel might be right, or what might be wrong.

But ya got to admit its all pretty F'ed up. The drive that divides us all on this issue. Alot of emotional stress on all us of.

But thats how they win.. They beat us down mentally. They beat us down spiritually, and then finally they rob us blind.

While the children dance in the streets, and other children are blown asunder by the bombs men make..

I take no stance... I can not allow myself to get sucked into this maddness.
People this is maddness!!! Pure maddness and its driving us into the ground, and making otherwise good people hate eachothers guts..

Originally posted by Cythraul
Surely this whole long-standing Arab-Israeli dispute is about the Temple Mount.

This conflict is not about lives or revenge. It's a battle to claim the place where "God chose to rest his Divine Presence" once and for all.

That is one of the reason I retired from religion, that type of God I can do without.

We are all God, we all just don't see it yet.