Jett Travolta. Death by Scientology?

I am actually a bit disgusted that some people can find a conspiracy in this tragedy.

If the Travolta's were not Scientologists would they be getting this much attention


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Originally posted by YoungStalin
Okay if he was christian,his son died and was cremated would this be an issue? since when do people have to make autopsy public record because of your religion? I swear, a Scientologist does anything and its "look that happened because he is a scientologist". Meanwhile prisoners on deathrow can get christian services before the execution and nobody brings it up. For the record freezone is NOT scientology.

Tell that to Freezoners.

If it is not, then please enlighten us and post Scientology materials up for people to read. Not propoganda. Post the Canon. You can look up the Gospels on the Internet and read them for free.

If the Freezoners are lying and the material invalid, please by all means, enlighten because I do not want to say something untrue about anyone. I'm open.

Just like christians, catholics, Protestant, baptist are not all the same.

The theology is different but the Canon is the same. We all read the same Gospels.

But this is pointless you guys watched zeitgeist and google searched scientology probably read at most a page or 2 of somthing LRH wrote and spent an hour reading the anti-scientology web sites, so you must have a PHD on the subject.

Nope, just in history. However, getting that PhD did show me how to do responsible research. I would not only take the word of a disgruntled former employee before deciding whether or not to take a position at a company. I would listen to people that also liked working there. I would ask questions of both that pertain to my own likes and dislikes.

Its the same as going to the KKK website to learn about black history and going to a neo-nazi website to learn about judaism.

You're using a bad analogy. In my case it is like asking a former KKK member about the KKK, a former Jew about Judaism, a former Catholic about Catholicism. People who have been a member of an organization do have subject matter expertise. You then take that expertise and apply it to the "how". How are they describing things? If they "flame" you know you are receiving emotional content.

Anyone can argue their knowledge on the subject the most common is
1. saying that you know former scientologist then putting quotes around anything you want for example a former scientologist i talked to said "i did 400 jumping jacks everyday"

And why isn't speaking to a former member a valid method of understanding a subject like Scientology? If you give equal time to those that are still in isn't that fair? You are receiving both pro and con.

2. Saying that you read a book then just going to another website and pasting a quote up saying you remembered it.

That's conjecture. You have no idea what people read or did not read. Two people can read Huckleberry Finn and take away two entirely different interpretations. Just because you feel differently doesn't invalidate their experience.

A lot of people quote from subject matter experts.

Truthfully, I look at people I want to emulate and ask: what makes them who they are? Like Gandhi and Dr King. I studied Hinduism for many years because of Gandhi. Sometimes the reverse is true. I asked myself what they heck is wrong with Jenna Elfman? Why is Tom Cruise acting like that? And read up on Scientology as they both credit it for making them who they are.

As a religious person, I do not like saying bad things about another religion. I understand how special mine is to me and do not want to be hurtful to others. I have good things to say about 99% of the religions out there. I can also say quite a few good things about aspects of Scientology. I just disagree with a great deal of what I do know of it.

Now, if Scientology and its materials were "free" like Islams, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. they could cry foul accurately over people not researching enough. When they give you a pro-Scientology website but force you to pay for years of classes until you know everything they cannot cry foul. The website does not give you enough information to make an informed decision on whether or not to become a Scientologist. Their materials are not out there for people to purchase for under $20 like any other religious text. You must spend years and countless dollars to learn it all. That's unfair. People should have the opportunity to make an informed decision on anything that will require their time, money, etc. Especially if we are talking your immortal soul...

People can only speak to what they can read or see. And if Scientology/Scientologists want people to understand them better they should do as Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism, etc does and post all of their canon and documents to the public for free or at the same price as a Bible.

reply to post by Rintendo


I was telling YOU that freezone was not scientology because you were putting it on the board. you said

Nope, just in history. However, getting that PhD did show me how to do responsible research. I would not only take the word of a disgruntled former employee before deciding whether or not to take a position at a company. I would listen to people that also liked working there. I would ask questions of both that pertain to my own likes and dislikes.

So i have read the posts on this board and all your "responsible research" and have found that all you have done is post freezone materials and take quotes from L ron hubbard out of context.

Does Dianetics count? **waves** I read the first few chapters until I couldn't take the boredom anymore.

So you got the book to not read it? Then it was SO dull you had to read your "true scientology" from freezone?

I got as far as the fifth exercise (the chair ones) and said to myself that it was a hypnotic deprivation exercise and not for me. The Alice in Wonderland thing was really bizarre.

even the BS exercises you got from freezone does not even have a 5th one with chairs. There is no 5th TR

I'm not saying that I am an authority, but I have read enough about it to make my decision on it. Not only that, but seeing as how I have been criticized by anti-Scientologists for being too "light" on Scientologists I guess I'm pretty fair in my treatment.

Read enough of what? You already said you only read a few chapeters of dianetics and thats enough to make a decision? and as far as being "light" on scientologists what does that mean? Better yet ask your friends what would a good anti-scientologist do to a scientologist? burn a cross? break a window? beat him up on the street? vandalize his church? Ask your friends i dont know because i dont hang out with anyone who is anti any religion or race.

Originally posted by YoungStalin
reply to post by Rintendo

 

I was telling YOU that freezone was not scientology because you were putting it on the board. you said

Nope, just in history. However, getting that PhD did show me how to do responsible research. I would not only take the word of a disgruntled former employee before deciding whether or not to take a position at a company. I would listen to people that also liked working there. I would ask questions of both that pertain to my own likes and dislikes.

So i have read the posts on this board and all your "responsible research" and have found that all you have done is post freezone materials and take quotes from L ron hubbard out of context.

I said that I did research, yes. I then came to a conclusion based not just on reading the materials posted by Freezoners, which according to them are Scientology materials that they paid for while they were in. I believe them. It would make no sense for them to rewrite all of the materials, as it would make zero sense for me to leave the Catholic Church and then rewrite the Bible in my own words.

If you say otherwise, I would have to ask you to prove it by posting Scientology materials. If Scientology is an open religion and you want to share the truth with the world then post the materials for everyone to read.

I'd be quite willing to begin reading them with an open mind that I did give to the materials on the Freezone site.

Does Dianetics count? **waves** I read the first few chapters until I couldn't take the boredom anymore.

So you got the book to not read it? Then it was SO dull you had to read your "true scientology" from freezone?

No, actually, I read the Freezone materials first. Then my swoopie pie, who had gone to a few Scientology classes with friends, had a copy of Dianetics. So I began reading it one night. My swoopie has nothing but nice things to say about Scientology and Scientologists and I can confirm is a loyal Tom Cruise fan to boot. I figured that he was a smart guy and therefore there had to be something of value in it.

I was being honest when I said that I was bored reading it. I was also bored reading Tolstoy in my Russian class. My lack of enjoyment does not negate other's placement of War and Peace as a giant of literature.

I got as far as the fifth exercise (the chair ones) and said to myself that it was a hypnotic deprivation exercise and not for me. The Alice in Wonderland thing was really bizarre.

even the BS exercises you got from freezone does not even have a 5th one with chairs. There is no 5th TR

Again, I would have to take your word for it, and I don't understand why I should have to. Why can't you place the TRs in a spot for everyone to look at? If you do, I will read them and if it is absolute bunk (the Freezone stuff) I promise that I will say that the Freezoners have made it all up.

I do not understand the secrecy. If it is "truth" or "Truth" then it belongs to everyone. You have no reason to not share the information, and every reason to share it.

If someone asked me what Catholics believe and were sincerely interested I would hand them my "What Catholics Believe" and a copy of the New Jerusalem Bible. I would make myself available to answer questions.

I'm not saying that I am an authority, but I have read enough about it to make my decision on it. Not only that, but seeing as how I have been criticized by anti-Scientologists for being too "light" on Scientologists I guess I'm pretty fair in my treatment.

Read enough of what? You already said you only read a few chapeters of dianetics and thats enough to make a decision?

Yep, and I ate a few bites of fois gras to know that it was not for me, either. I read the beginning of Dianetics found nothing useful for me that I could not get from my current faith. I walked through several exercizes. I spoke to three people who felt that got a lot out of their Scientology classes. I spoke to one Scientologist who was suicidal and tried to get him help--I will admit that dealing with that individual probably did more to color my judgment than anything else. I'll be honest. His fear of psychiatry and psychologists, his fear of meds all the while telling me he had nothing to live for and wanted to take his own life did lend some insight into how serious Scientologists are about what they feel on that whole portion of the medical profession.

and as far as being "light" on scientologists what does that mean?

It means that unlike the people who would like to "dismantle the cult", "bring the cult to its knees", etc. saying it is not for me, why it is not for me, but saying also that grownups have a right to choose whatever...I'd say that's pretty light. I consider the anti-Catholics who don't immediately go for the "all priests are pedophiles" or bring up the Inquisition 500 years later in a conversation are giving it to me pretty light.

If people agreed with you, with Scientologists, they would join up. Accept that there are people who sample it--because honestly without you guys posting your materials that is all anyone can do-- and think that it is not for them.

Better yet ask your friends what would a good anti-scientologist do to a scientologist? burn a cross?

You guys believe Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad and others were programmed into our brains, yes? So why would burning a cross bother you?

break a window? beat him up on the street? vandalize his church?

Well, a good critic of a religion or organization would probably boycott it or picket, just as Scientologists do to Psychiatric conventions. Anything beyond that would be rude or criminal.

Ask your friends i dont know because i dont hang out with anyone who is anti any religion or race.

You don't have to be anti-Christian to be a vocal atheist. You don't have to be an anti-anything to point out a problem or have an opinion. And I am sorry for you if you do not hang out with people of different opinions than yourself. I hang out with people who are anti-Catholic (by your definition of what constitutes anti-Scientology). Some of their points have been valid and I have actually had discussions about them on the Thursday night meetup.

reply to post by YoungStalin


I would have said this last night but I ran out of room.

If you enjoy Scientology, if you think it has benefit to you, then I am honestly very happy about that.

I understand that a lot of the drills in the beginning stages are used to make people impervious to criticism. That is a good thing. I know that a lot of the exercises are to create a neutral state. In a world of great stress that is also a good thing.

I think that in a world where people seem to push medication it is good to have a push in the opposite direction to provide counter-balance. Scientology tried very hard to do that.

I think that most of the Scientologists that I have met personally really want to make the world a better place and I believe intentions are important.

If I choose not to be a Scientologist it is because I personally did not find it enlightening, or in some cases--my personal experience with a suicidal Scientologist, for example--found it to be something I wish to avoid it is not my indictment against you or anyone else.

You are different. You want different things. You aren't a Catholic why? Probably for most of the same reasons that I don't want to be a Scientologist. You don't think it would work for you. You found the Catholic "tech" to be unhelpful, etc.

When Scientologists point out the violent history of some of those professing to be Christians or Muslims it doesn't make them Anti-Christianity anymore than it does someone pointing out the problems with Scientology as they see it.

If someone said I think all Scientologists are evil, or all Scientologists should go to jail, or the world would be better off without them that is "anti" and hateful. That is not me. I would never call you evil. I would never wish anything bad to happen to you. In fact, I honestly want for you to be happy in whatever it is you choose and for you to not have the same experience as my friend.

I believe that John Travolta loved his son and tried to do what he thought was best. There are no easy decisions when it comes to disease management or disability therapy. Everything has its pluses and minuses. If you can point out a time where I blamed him for his son's death, I will recant. If you can point out a time where I called Scientologists evil or some other name I will recant.

I don't like the religion. It is not for me. However, I believe in free will and believe that my likes are just that. Mine. I will support your right to be a Scientologist and worship without harm coming to you.

I guess that is it. Please take good care of yourself and I wish you a long and happy life.

reply to post by uninspired


if your town is not a wealthy one, i doubt a local scientology organization would be available. Read the interview (penthouse....i know, i know) with L Ron Hubbard Jr. He is the founder's son who has since spoken against all the abuses of this cult. Unfortunately, once you're "in" it's difficult to get out. Blackmail, fabrication of "dirty laundry", injury, and even death have been reported by those who attempt to desert. It's unreal that given its foundation of criminal activity, greed, drug use, brain washing, and sexual exploitation (young children included...some reports exist that indicate homosexual experiences were used to blackmail celebrities into maintaining their silence) intelligent people still remain. The alternative (saying, "wtf was I thinking?") and leaving the cult is simply not attractive or safe. The name of the cult is oxymoronic considering there is little "science" involved, if any. Anyone who has seen a FMRI (functional MRI) knows that the physiology of the brain of a child with autism ...or some psychological diseases such as schizophrenia...is different. How can Tom Cruise sit there and say he has "studied" psychiatry? He should go to med school and specialize in neuroscience, get some clinical experience, then talk to people about his expertise!!! L Ron Hubbard Jr suggests that this cult preys on those with big egos and little common sense. Of course you have to have money too!!!! I certainly cant speak against those poor fools who have been blackmailed into remaining in the cult despite a "eureka moment"!!!
sadly, LF

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Rintendo

 

The child was Autistic and he was denied care such as:

1. Medications
2. Helmet
3. Being watched
4. Schooling for Autism (Spec.Ed.)
5. Therapist or Psychologist to work with a mentally ill child to help him with his illness for better coping skills.
6. Parenting Education and support groups with other parents with children with special needs.
The Travolta's were not educated enough on parenting skills with a non-Typical developing child.

MENTAL ILLNESS IS REAL just like PHYSICAL ILLNESS it needs to be treated to make life as the best is can be for that person to get through. Jett may have been loved, had material things, and a mansion over his head. However he was a special kid with special needs and it goes way beyond then what his lay parents provided.

Ok, so you have an intimate, close and exclusive relationship w/ the Travolta/Preston family.

right...

go back to reading the star, globe or inquirer a.s.s.h.a.t. lol

Again, more misunderstanding, and taking things out of context. If someone needed a particular drug then you would still take it.

But, truthfully, I don't know that there really that many drugs that we truly need for survival. Some situations may warrant it?

I don't know about you, but the drug companies haven't really gained much of my trust. I don't even take aspirin.

As for anyone likening TRs to hypnosis, you have completely missed the target. You have missed the bus, and it is driving away; as a matter of fact, you didn't even see the bus. It has absolutely nothing to do with hypnosis. And "mind control" is Psychiatry's invention, not Scientology's. Hypnosis takes you toward unconsciousness, TRs take you toward being awake, and in control. If you had truly done TRs like they were meant to be done, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. If you feel "hypnotized," then you haven't done the the TRs long enough. "Bright and awake" is a good description of what you could get with TRs. If you do these right, the results can be absolutely awesome. TRs would be excellent for someone who is nervous around people, for example. Doing The Success Through Communication Course was some of the most fun I have ever had. This course uses TRs.

Some of you guys are digging here. Trying to find dirt. I'm sorry, but John Travolta doesn't strike me as a person who would neglect his kids.

Sometimes it feels like some people who are posting on ATS are CNN agents. Don't you have something better to do than tear people and organizations apart, and find "conspiracies" in every nook and cranny? Sure, there are conspiracies, but damn, they aren't everywhere. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy on every street corner; good things are actually happening in the world, you know. Some of you guys act like blood-thirsty parasites, who feed on the human race's downfall. There never seems to be enough blood spilled to satisfy your apatites.

Why do you feel the need to do this? Especially, during a time of such tragedy for the Travolta family? Why?

Very unacceptable.

Troy





[edit on 9-1-2009 by cybertroy]

[edit on 9-1-2009 by cybertroy]

reply to post by Terapin


I have spent a long time looking into CoS. And yes its a bit of a con. But what religion is not a con at some level.
This is outright neglect of religion extreamists.
11 year old girl died, becasue of the parents religion..

But did CoS has anything to do with this kids death.. I have found no such sources, or data that could say yes..

You see the top stars of CoS are treated much differently than underlings.
These stars can and did seek medical care for their son.

This death was tragic, and my heart goes out for them..
But as a long time CoS critic, and researcher.. And yes I joined them to see what I could learn.. Im no longer a member.. But I got what I needed, and over all they are okay people for the most part..
A little cultish for my liking.. but I wanted to see what it was like on the inside.. Well I did.. And I must say..
NO I do not think CoS should be blamed for the death of Johns son.

This is comming from a guy who spent 10 years on CoS.. Long before Anon came on around.. Anon is what got me out of researching them..

Thanks to Anon, it made it to dangerous to even research them..
Im not to happy with many Anon members.. They discredit alot of my hard work.. With silly threats, and childish pranks..
Tho some members are like me.. and willing to hear and exp all sides to a story before you come out and say anything 100%

CoS is like any other fringe religion.. They have their rights and should be respected, and left alone..
You wanna pick on the real bad guys.. Try Right Wing Fundalmentalist..
Those sick puppies have nukes!!! Pat Robertson..
CoS atleast don't have any nukes... Yet.. But this is getting off topic..
I hope that helped answer your question..

reply to post by Terapin


Yes Jett was never diagnosed by any non-scientologist doctors...
He was never properly treated case closed

[edit on 18-1-2009 by flyingunknown]

reply to post by flyingunknown

Yes Jett was never diagnosed by any non-scientologist doctors...
He was never properly treated case closed

Please post proof of your accusations or prepare to be put in the slanderer category. Thanks.

This death was tragic - as is any death of a child.
Maybe more so for Jet as his parents (seemingly) did everything they could to give him all the love and care possible.

My heart goes out to them still.

I hope they can find some peace somehow.


*P*E*A*C*E*

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by flyingunknown

 

Yes Jett was never diagnosed by any non-scientologist doctors...
He was never properly treated case closed

Please post proof of your accusations or prepare to be put in the slanderer category. Thanks.

This death was tragic - as is any death of a child.
Maybe more so for Jet as his parents (seemingly) did everything they could to give him all the love and care possible.

My heart goes out to them still.

I hope they can find some peace somehow.


*P*E*A*C*E*

My proof is here:

www.lisamcpherson.org...

If you are familliar with this case, you can with little imagination put Jett's name in the place of hers.