Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Originally posted by darkelf
God has never forgiven sin without the sacrifice of innocent blood. From the animal(s) slain to make garments for Adam and Eve to the temple sacrifices, to the self-sacrifice of God in the flesh.

This was not a human sacrifice, it was God redeeming mankind.

NEVER was there a human on the list of appropriate sacrifices. This was the doing of christians.. they are the ones who require it.. not G.d.

reply to post by darkelf


Very good!! thank you! I will have to take the time to go through each one to put it into context.. however the first I have already done and it is exposing the lie... note, the one who says "but the just shall by HIS faith" is the one whose soul in him is not upright.


and in vs 16 of Romans 2, Paul declares exactly whose gospel he is preaching.

"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." WHOSE gospel?

This isn't rocket science folks. You are defending someone whose theology broke every law, including the laws of nature.

Thus the reason G.d wanted HIS children to know that HE DOES NOT BREAK LAWS... man does. It was the clue to know who NOT to follow.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
KJV

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I was quoting the NIV

13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Ah thanks, I appreciate that. In Matthew 9:13, Jesus is quoting from the Prophet Hosea. Hosea is an interesting read. God commanded him to not only marry but love a harlot. Sexual immorality is often used as a metaphor for idolatry. God was passing judgment on Israel for her sins. Chapter five ends with this verse:

15I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Source

It picks up in chapter six:

1Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
4O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Source

Hosea was describing the exact scene that simplynoone was describing in her last post. Jesus is the sacrifice. God just wants us to love and obey Him. Jesus gave us one commandment; to love one another.

So Jesus was rebuking the pharasies because they were more concerned with appearances than following God. They thought they were righteous and they didn’t think they needed a Savior. Had they truly been righteous, they would have recognized Jesus as the incarnate Word.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by L.I.B.
reply to post by justamomma

 

you aren't going to be taken to a place where your bigotries and blind faiths can destroy yet another place. It is that simple.

I hope that this doesn't come across as snippy, as it is just a query.

Have you been to that place already?

THIS IS IT LIB... we are making heaven and hell on this earth right now. I don't know about any other place existing known as heaven.

why the Word said.. "the Kingdom of Heaven AT HAND."

Okay. Thank you.

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:13

Originally posted by darkelf

15I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Source

It picks up in chapter six:

1Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
4O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Source

Hosea was describing the exact scene that simplynoone was describing in her last post. Jesus is the sacrifice.

WRONG!!! How can you read this and gather that? Do you know who Ephraim is? Do you have any clue what is REALLY being talked about. You insert the name Jesus, but that is YOUR adding to the Word!!!


6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

This verse is contradictory to EVERYTHING you all are claiming and in line with everything that badmedia and I have been saying!

1Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

OMG!! SERIOUSLY?? It says US ... NOT HIM!!! welcome to what you all are missing

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Okay. Thank you.

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:13

It is because you lack the knowledge that you should have been grounded in FIRST! LIB, I am *at* the right hand side of my Father! He speaks to me.. but yet.. tada! Here I am! It is a metaphor of higher knowledge. You all are seeking forgiveness rather than doing what G.d told you to do. You live under guilt rather than helping to shine the light of TRUE knowledge in the world that it desperately needs.

NO ONE man is going to save the world. No one ever has and no one ever will. IT is up to US to get out of the stone age and quit worshiping the sticks and the rocks and the white man and the gold and the.. ya get my point?

[edit on 19-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by darkelf
and in vs 16 of Romans 2, Paul declares exactly whose gospel he is preaching.

"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." WHOSE gospel?

This isn't rocket science folks. You are defending someone whose theology broke every law, including the laws of nature.

Thus the reason G.d wanted HIS children to know that HE DOES NOT BREAK LAWS... man does. It was the clue to know who NOT to follow.

Gospel according to Strong’s is the original Greek word euaggelion:

1. a reward for good tidings
2. good tidings
a. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God
b. the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
c. the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ
d. the gospel
e. as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidingsSource

Paul’s gospel is also my gospel and hopefully the gospel of all Christians; That through the death and resurrection of Jesus, we can be assured of eternal salvation. Paul is not proclaiming his own message but extolling the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
No. I do not think God is a liar.

That doesn't change the fact that God sends people to this world to awaken others. This world was given to us, we have dominion and God through his own rules must have a living person in the world, by his own free will,to bring God's light here.

And He has enlightened some of us to the truth in His Word.. so why aren't you listening? If He sent another in His name, what makes you think you would listen to them anymore than you are listening to us?

reply to post by darkelf


And? I don't base my beliefs on the NT... the point of this whole thread. I base it on the Tanakh in which christianity has claimed its foundation on and yet it is not based on the Tanakh at all. It takes vague references and rapes the Word to whore it out. You miss the knowledge because you are blinded by the false light of the lie.

Originally posted by darkelf
Paul’s gospel is also my gospel and hopefully the gospel of all Christians; That through the death and resurrection of Jesus, we can be assured of eternal salvation. Paul is not proclaiming his own message but extolling the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Which is what scares me and why we have been sent as a light before Paul's gospel turns off the light once and for all in this world.

reply to post by justamomma

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by darkelf
Very good!! thank you! I will have to take the time to go through each one to put it into context.. however the first I have already done and it is exposing the lie... note, the one who says "but the just shall by HIS faith" is the one whose soul in him is not upright.

No, the soul which is lifted up (swollen with pride) is the one whose soul in him is not upright. The just (righteous) shall live by his faith (fidelity, steadfastness).
Hebrew is a wonderful language. I wish that I didn’t have to rely on the interpretation of others and could just read it myself. But I do find many helps on-line.

Originally posted by darkelf
Gospel according to Strong’s is the original Greek word euaggelion:

1. a reward for good tidings
2. good tidings
a. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God
b. the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
c. the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ
d. the gospel
e. as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidingsSource

Paul’s gospel is also my gospel and hopefully the gospel of all Christians; That through the death and resurrection of Jesus, we can be assured of eternal salvation. Paul is not proclaiming his own message but extolling the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is a reward/punishment system. You do good and I will give you some scoobie snacks. The TRUE reward comes in gaining TRUE knowledge and spreading that knowledge in the world so that our kids are not left to dwell under the same type of oppressive system.

Why must we have rewards and threats to get us to do goodwill to our fellow men? Why must we condemn others for not believing in something as barbaric as a human sacrifice?

Why? because if we don't believe in these silly things, we can't be controlled and G.D FORBID that we should take self responsibility for our actions!

Originally posted by darkelf
No, the soul which is lifted up (swollen with pride) is the one whose soul in him is not upright.

NO SH. SHERLOCK Do a little study in the Tanakh and see if I am wrong.

ANY time that you see (: ), what follows it is referring to what precedes it, PERIOD!

So, maybe it really isn't even talking about Paul.. maybe it is talking about YOU ALL! LOL

[edit on 19-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

It is because you lack the knowledge that you should have been grounded in FIRST! LIB, I am *at* the right hand side of my Father! He speaks to me.. but yet.. tada! Here I am! It is a metaphor of higher knowledge. You all are seeking forgiveness rather than doing what G.d told you to do. You live under guilt rather than helping to shine the light of TRUE knowledge in the world that it desperately needs.

NO ONE man is going to save the world. No one ever has and no one ever will. IT is up to US to get out of the stone age and quit worshiping the sticks and the rocks and the white man and the gold and the.. ya get my point?

I get your point that you are telling me:

1. you lack the knowledge that you should have been grounded in FIRST (when it is the Spirit of Truth that reveals all)

2. LIB, I am *at* the right hand side of my Father! (And yet you haven't been to heaven where the Father is.)

3. (false accusation) You all are seeking forgiveness rather than doing what G.d told you to do.

4. (another false accusation) You live under guilt rather than helping to shine the light of TRUE knowledge in the world that it desperately needs.

5. NO ONE man is going to save the world. (no one said they would: "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

IT is up to US to get out of the stone age and quit worshiping the sticks and the rocks and the white man and the gold and the.. ya get my point?

Whoever said they were worshiping sticks and rocks? Or is that another attempt at calling someone a pagan?

I get the point that there is so much that you do not yet know. Yet, you think you do know so much... scripture is right... those who say they know, do not yet know as they should.

It all fits together, but for right now it confuses you. And the confusion shows because you can only accuse me and others. You do not know the mercy that God has, nor do you show it.

reply to post by justamomma


I’m not trying to convert you or change your view. I’m only trying to show how I interpret scripture. I do believe that the OT prophecies for the Messiah were fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that there is only one God and He has three distinct personalities. Without going into quantum physics theories, I will only say that I believe it is possible for a supreme being such as God to be three individuals and one God.

I appreciate that you fear that Christians have it all wrong and that we are the ones who are eternally dammed. Please understand that Christians often feel the same fear for others who they feel are getting it wrong. This exchange of ideas always helps to enrich our lives. Thanks for starting this thread.

reply to post by justamomma

NO SH. SHERLOCK Do a little study in the Tanakh and see if I am wrong.

ANY time that you see (: ), what follows it is referring to what precedes it, PERIOD!

So, maybe it really isn't even talking about Paul.. maybe it is talking about YOU ALL! LOL

Or maybe the one judging everyone as ignorant?

Wonder who that could be?

LIB ..

1. But if you buy into Paul’s teachings, then you have yet to listen to the Spirit of Truth.
2. Yes… because I took the time to understand the Law and in it, I was pulled to the right side of my Father.
3. What other reason is there to believe in anything Paul says?
4. You are not helping to shine the true light as long as you support the oppressive system that paul has others under.
5. Agreed… but you don’t even know the Son. You miss him though he is right in front of your face. Do you or do you not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus. Why do you think Peter was blessed for having seen the Son before blood had to be shed?
6. I am outright calling anyone who worships Jesus or a man or a cross or a rock or anything found in the heavens and in the earth as gods pagan, yes.
7. You show your ignorance in the Scriptures though LIB. You look at the end and filter the beginning through it. I outright declare that I have knowledge of the Scriptures and that the path of Paul will lead to the path of hell and further destruction in this world.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
reply to post by justamomma

 

NO SH. SHERLOCK Do a little study in the Tanakh and see if I am wrong.

ANY time that you see (: ), what follows it is referring to what precedes it, PERIOD!

So, maybe it really isn't even talking about Paul.. maybe it is talking about YOU ALL! LOL

Or maybe the one judging everyone as ignorant?

Wonder who that could be?

Okay, LIB.. have you even bothered to go through and see if I am right or I am wrong concerning what I said... or am I just wrong because you say it?

Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by justamomma

 

I’m not trying to convert you or change your view.

Well, this is good because you can't. My Father has shown me the truth and the truth is this... we are it. We either figure this out or we keep believing in the lies and destroying what is in front of us.

I appreciate that you fear that Christians have it all wrong and that we are the ones who are eternally dammed. Please understand that Christians often feel the same fear for others who they feel are getting it wrong. This exchange of ideas always helps to enrich our lives. Thanks for starting this thread.

Not even ONCE have I condemned anyone to eternal damnation. that is the concept of the christians.. I don't believe in the concept of hell as you all see it.