Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

No amount of "hocus pocus" can make the 3 in 1 deal fit in with the Hebrew Scriptures.

And yet, according to Jewish rabbis there are 72 names of God.

It could lead one to think that this is monotheism with a polytheistic twist.

Not that I think that, of course.

reply to post by justamomma

Replacing the law with faith in Jesus is his agenda and Paul has no trouble misapplying and taking out of context any OT verse that suits his needs. The fuller context of Deut 30 shows us why Paul couldn't quote the verses honestly.

Hence, why I consider him a con-man. He is the originator of Christianity regardless of what Jesus would have said if he were alive. Note - my thread!

Originally posted by L.I.B. Paul gets all the blame, but as I see it all the apostles actively engaged in giving the Good News to the Gentile community thereby fulfilling Israel's duty to be a priest to all the nations.

Tell me, are those who follow Eastern religions... Buddhism, Hinduism, etc exempt from God's plan? They do not follow the Torah's requirements.

Good morning (afternoon here actually) L.I.B. I was wondering what your Screen Name stood for Just my curiosity taking over haha

I wanted to share with you what the Jewish Encyclopedia has to say about Paul.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

You can see it is not a character assisination at all. In fact, you will see that it praises his determination and other characteristics. (This is how the majority of the Jewish people are btw... honest, but always looking for the good in everything Think Anne Frank and that has been my more recent experiences with the Jewish people in my life)

This is close to my view of Paul. Of course there are benefits that came out of his ministry and I may not have stated that here, but I have stated it elsewhere..

But if *I* were to keep quiet about the obvious and deadly flaws that have led to others worshiping an image of a man as though he were G.d, then I am not doing my whole duty to man. That is not to say that is what YOU have to do. It is what I had laid on my heart.

Having Jewish blood (the watered down version of course haha) and therefore being drawn to understand that recently discovered part of me yet at the same time understanding christianity from a completely non jewish standpoint, I have been put in a position to see where the flaws are. That is not to say that EVERY sentence in his writings should be condemned as heresy. That, however, was not my point of the thread. It was to point out that worship of Jesus as G.d was not something that was based on the Torah and the Tanakh.

There *are* Jewish people who are trying to get this message out, but not coming from the mindset of those who are not Jewish, it is harder for them to relate... not to mention this cloud of misunderstanding concerning their nature hangs over them in the eyes of many who are not Jewish. I have even seen you referring to that same cloud.

The fundamental aspect of the Jewish belief system that Paul has taken out with his misconstruing of the Old Testament and the message of Jesus was that G.d is in the NOW. G.d is with us always. To rest in G.d and follow His ways is not something that has to be pathetically hoped for or waited on.

It was very much that explanation of the vertical vs. the horizontal that I began to understand it.

Paul focus' on *what* we get and because it is a false perception, the how we get it is false as well.

Jesus was teaching the Jewish people that it is what we give that determines what we receive. When we give to another from a purely unselfish heart, we are receiving. G.d is in the now. He saves us from the death of our soul NOW (not in the future).

Jesus came to teach the Jewish people why G.d put them in the land. It wasn't because they were holier than thou. It was because they were the least in the earth and He was manifesting Himself to them by giving this to them and nurturing them. Their flaw was in not manifesting the characteristics of G.d to the world. Thus Jesus' message specifically aimed toward the Jewish people.

Paul did ultimately take the message to the world, but there was deception in it. Look around at the recent list on this board. If more people understood G.d's way and understood that He will only be found in THIS moment (not the past and not the future), there wouldn't be so much fear, panic, and confusion. It is this fear, panic, and confusion that is growing as less and less people understand who they are and who G.d really is and where He is found. I could not keep quiet.

Paul's message is based in deception (whether intentional or unintentional). When one can start understanding that their vision has been obscured, then they can correct that vision. When the vision is corrected, then it can be understood that G.d is a loving Father who doesn't change.. our perception changes as He reveals Himself, but He doesn't change. He always was, is, and will be.

Jesus had a beginning. G.d is the beginning. There is an important difference.

I don't ask anyone to accept what I say and in fact, I highly discourage it. I just ask them to understand the what their belief is based on.

G.d is a G.d of knowledge, wisdom, understanding. I will say that I do understand the points that you make about Paul. The point that I make is that the god Jesus is not based on the teachings in the Hebrew text. I am hoping to encourage others to dig in and get to know where their beliefs stem from. Knowledge is the key to understanding. Blind faith only leads to death.





[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by justamomma

 

Replacing the law with faith in Jesus is his agenda and Paul has no trouble misapplying and taking out of context any OT verse that suits his needs. The fuller context of Deut 30 shows us why Paul couldn't quote the verses honestly.

Hence, why I consider him a con-man. He is the originator of Christianity regardless of what Jesus would have said if he were alive. Note - my thread!

Thank you. Someone else pointed me in the direction of your thread as well. What I have read thus far has certainly give me something to ponder and since thinking is one of my favorite things to do.... good thread


I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to what I have put forth in this thread.

Does it not ultimately come down to whether you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that the words written of Him in scripture are true (that is, most of all, His own words above commentary of them)?

In context...

John 5:15-47 (New King James Version)

Excerpt:

Honor the Father and the Son

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[a] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Do you believe the words that he spoke? Do you trust that they were the truth, given to Him by God?

Or do you believe that there was a mistranslation? Or that the texts were altered? Or that Jesus Christ was a liar or delusional? ...in other words, are you a fool?

reply to post by walman


Sorry, but I think you are the fool. Even if you may be right, you are still the fool who has taken from memory rather than intelligence. You don't actually understand why these things must be true, you just accept them because authority gave them too you. If you had been given anything else by authority, you would have also blindly and foolishly accepted that as well.

Overall, you prove that Paul is misleading. You do so by your own focus of idol and symbolism over all else.

Originally posted by walman
Do you believe the words that he spoke? Do you trust that they were the truth, given to Him by God?

Or do you believe that there was a mistranslation? Or that the texts were altered? Or that Jesus Christ was a liar or delusional? ...in other words, are you a fool?

If I believed all the words were really his and that they were true, let's take a look at what I would believe.

Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5-6.

"..It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Matthew 15 He is speaking to a non Jewish woman and calls her a dog.

Here is what the Rabbi's teach: "We are obligated to feed the non-Jewish poor in exactly the same way as we feed the Jewish poor."

Meaning, you don't refer to them as dogs and you don't act apathetic toward them. You treat them as you would treat one of your own.

Those are only a couple of examples.

However, there has obviously been manipulations to the words and this is known when you understand the Jewish culture and the surrounding cultures at the time of Jesus' ministry.

One of these parables deserves special mention here, as it has obviously been changed, for dogmatic reasons, so as to have an anti-Jewish application. There is little doubt that J. Halevy is right ("R. E. J." iv. 249-255) in suggesting that in the parable of the good Samaritan (Luke x. 17-37) the original contrast was between the priest, the Levite, and the ordinary Israelite—representing the three great classes into which Jews then and now were and are divided. The point of the parable is against the sacerdotal class, whose members indeed brought about the death of Jesus. Later, "Israelite" or "Jew" was changed into "Samaritan," which introduces an element of inconsistency, since no Samaritan would have been found on the road between Jericho and Jerusalem (ib. 30).

The Jewish Encyclopedia

Since Christianity is based on the Jewish beliefs, wouldn't it be wise to go to those who understand the culture and history of their people?

Never believe something blindly because you will only be deceiving yourself.

I use great discernment when I read the words of Jesus as I do with anything else.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by count66 Jesus came to fulfill the law as he said on the sermon of the mount

Jesus may have fulfilled the Law, but if this is true, then it had to be done within the context OF THAT Law. The Law makes it very clear that each person is responsible for their OWN sin and it is clear on how one finds salvation and redemption.

In the context of the Law, I can understand how Jesus fulfilled the Law.. but he did NOT fulfill it for you, me, or anyone else because that would be contradictory to the Law and NOT a fulfillment of.

And remember, the sermon on the mount was given to the Jewish people. So, when he said, "ye are the light of the world," he was not targeting christians... he was targeting the people that were chosen to be part of the covenent of G.d.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by walman

 

Sorry, but I think you are the fool. Even if you may be right, you are still the fool who has taken from memory rather than intelligence. You don't actually understand why these things must be true, you just accept them because authority gave them too you. If you had been given anything else by authority, you would have also blindly and foolishly accepted that as well.

Overall, you prove that Paul is misleading. You do so by your own focus of idol and symbolism over all else.

I have reason to believe that goes beyond faith alone. But I do not discount authority, and never will - the same way that Abraham did not question God when God asked him to sacrifice Issac. He also had reason, but his understanding was not on par with God. He had absolute devotion and obedience to his credit, and to be so devoted and obedient to God is greater than understanding. Read...

Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[a] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

reply to post by justamomma

Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5-6.

When Christ gave this command he left the disciples to teach, but they came back. It was a command for that time, yet the command that was for life and for all future generations was given at the end of his time with them:

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." (Matthew 28:18-20)

And Paul gives his account of Christ's command to him as well...

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

"..It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Matthew 15 He is speaking to a non Jewish woman and calls her a dog.

Here is what the Rabbi's teach: "We are obligated to feed the non-Jewish poor in exactly the same way as we feed the Jewish poor."

First, Christ also said...

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

And to finish what you quoted, the woman (who sought the healing power of Christ to free her daughter from possession) humbled herself before Christ by agreeing with him, and he said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed. By the way, see Mark 7:27-30 for a fuller picture.

Tell me where the Rabbis taught what you said.

Also, if you want to understand the importance of the relationship between faith and commandments in God's eyes, read Matthew 15:1-9.

It is by God that I am able to discern.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by count66 Jesus came to fulfill the law as he said on the sermon of the mount

Jesus may have fulfilled the Law, but if this is true, then it had to be done within the context OF THAT Law. The Law makes it very clear that each person is responsible for their OWN sin and it is clear on how one finds salvation and redemption.

In the context of the Law, I can understand how Jesus fulfilled the Law.. but he did NOT fulfill it for you, me, or anyone else because that would be contradictory to the Law and NOT a fulfillment of.

And remember, the sermon on the mount was given to the Jewish people. So, when he said, "ye are the light of the world," he was not targeting christians... he was targeting the people that were chosen to be part of the covenent of G.d.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

I have been reading along today. How do explain the droves of Messianic scriptures in the O.T.?

What about this for instance, just this passage completely negates what you are trying to teach here today. It 100% devastates it.

The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,
and I have not been rebellious;
I have not drawn back.
I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.
He who vindicates me is near.
Who then will bring charges against me?
Let us face each other!
Who is my accuser?
Let him confront me!
It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me.
Who is he that will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let him who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
—Isaiah 50:5-10, NIV


And the God of the bible that your so desperately trying to reach through your own works(which is impossible BTW) any way his name is Y`shua which some claim actually means "The Lord God" in Hebrew.
Oh and this family tree becomes very interesting when we look at the meanings behind each original "Hebrew" name. check it out for yourself.

Adam – Man

Seth – Appointed

Enoch – Mortal

Kenan – Sorrow

Mahalalel - The Blessed God

Jared - Shall come down

Enoch – Teaching

Methuselah - His death shall bring

Lamech – Despairing

Noah - Rest, or comfort.


Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; the Blessed God shall come down teaching, His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.


I can list pages of scripture all pointing to Y'shua being the Saviour, using only the O.T.. I can use only the first 5 books and psalms and still list a gob of them.

I respectfully submit that you have some insight and all that in some areas and that's great. But what your doing here is more or less claiming that your "goodness" or your ability to follows "The Law"(which I highly doubt) is saving you. Impossible. You being good will not change anything.

It will not change the fact that mankind is in a prison ran by the fallen angels.

Satan was completely in control of human beings even at death by some sort of squatters rights to mankind. ONLY Y'shua was able to defeat the curse Adam brought on and free us from this imprisonment that Satan had implemented. You speak as though your have hidden knowledge and enlightenment. I see no evidence of this other than spewing basic "Hebrew" religion the very thing that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for.

Shall I list all the Old testament scriptures that prove Jesus and the God of Abraham are the same? What is so hard to understand that God places his DNA in Mary so he could manifest in our world and become the sacrifice? I mean you can understand the symbolic sacrifice of the animals that the Children of Israel used to do for a 1000 years but you can't see the same plan implemented and manifest in Jesus? humm something is very wrong here I just can't put my finger on it...dare I say your deceiving yourself and I pray all is revealed, seems your on a journey and I believe Jesus is going to draw you to him in the end..

Any hoo that's my two cents. Good luck with the religious thread though...*cough* never minding it really does absolutely nodda for humanity.

FG


[edit on 4-1-2009 by firegoggles]Just cleaning up my mess of a post . You get the idea just the same.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by firegoggles]

reply to post by walman


Question is, are you getting your discernment from the G.d that led the Israelites out of Egypt or the god that Paul spoke of?

The new covenent that churches only give to you in bits and pieces because it directly contradicts the doctrine of Paul:

Jer 31:27-36
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


Notice: But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Now, if Jesus has fulfilled the Law for YOU, can you explain to me how you reconcile this obvious paradox? G.d said everyone will die for their OWN sin, yet you say Jesus died for everyone's sin.

When your eyes are opened to this paradox, then you will understand why it is fruitless for me to argue with you.

I am not trying to tell you that you can't believe Jesus will cover your sins via his death.... I am just trying to inform that the doctrine of Paul was not based on the Torah and the Tanakh (what you refer to as the Old Testament.... it is not old... it *is*) and that it requires blind faith because it is in opposition to the Law of G.d says.

reply to post by justamomma


The law was fulfilled for all by Jesus offering his willing sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus clearly states this - in my originally post you will see the scripture quotation.

Also Jesus told Peter and the other apostles to preach to the Gentiles following his resurrection. Also throughout his life he mentioned that many gentiles would be saved - even more then the Jewish people who had the law all along.

Jesus did mention that his message was primarily for the Jews as they were the people of the law but he also showed that gentiles could be saved too - i.e. the woman who got the crumbs from the table. He also uses the parable of the good Samaritan to illustrate how the people of the law could be outdone with good works by the people without the law.

They were and are many Jews who recognise Jesus as the saviour - both past and present - e.g. Messianic Jews.

Unfortunately as Jesus said - again quoted in my original post - People will only be shown the truth of Jesus if the Father draws them - if he has not drawn you or others then I cannot help with that. I hope you or others don't take offense at that - its not meant that way - its just the truth as I see it. You can ask Jesus if he is the son of god - for a sign and then you can be drawn if you want to try.

Paul although not perfect was accepted by Peter and Jesus's other apostles as mentioned in the NT - in fact Peter was willing to accept rebuke from Paul regarding continuing to force the law on new converts - why would Peter heed Paul if he did not accept that he had authority and spoke for Jesus also.

I of course can only speak the truth as I know it and not for others. I have experienced Jesus directly in my life - I wasn't a practicing Christian and had completely lost faith - My life was going down the toilet due to my own mistakes and some ill health - I got caught in a whole mess and became very seriously ill I couldn't get out of it and all medical treatment had failed - don't want to really go into details - its kinda personal - but basically I cried out for help to Jesus if he was there - no church, preachers or bibles involved. Immediately I had a sensation of pure love and inner peace and knew that I wasn't alone - Within a couple of weeks my life had sorted itself out and has gone from strength to strength since - I'm really talking a whole cure and rags to relatively middle class riches scenario within 2 years here. Every day I give thanks to god through his son Jesus for this. My life has totally changed since. I still don't go to church or deal with preachers - I read the bible and associated spiritual texts. I have educated myself reasonably well on other faiths as well as atheists arguments against the nature of Christ and have found none that can outdo my own personal experience.

I wish you and all others well and Gods blessing - I don't mean to offend anyone and if I have I apologise - I just have to tell my story and views as I see it.

reply to post by justamomma

I was wondering what your Screen Name stood for

Just my curiosity taking over haha

My screen name is actually an expression of delight. LIB comes from the saying: Welllll (L), I'll (I) be (B)! It is so pleasing to find an online community with the freedom to discuss freely (within reason, of course) all the varied topics that ATS provides. Only in such an environment can truth/s actually be disclosed and discussed.

Later it dawned on me that Lib, or Libby is also considered a nickname for one of the names that has come down from what my real first name originally hails from, which is Hannah.

Then, lol, my screen name could also be a representation of a human BEing instead of a human DOing.

(This is how the majority of the Jewish people are btw... honest, but always looking for the good in everything

Think Anne Frank and that has been my more recent experiences with the Jewish people in my life)

It seems that I may have given a mistaken impression of my view of the Jewish people. I am in complete admiration. (That doesn't mean, however, that they are exempt from being prone to error as all people can be.)

This is close to my view of Paul. Of course there are benefits that came out of his ministry and I may not have stated that here, but I have stated it elsewhere..

But if *I* were to keep quiet about the obvious and deadly flaws that have led to others worshiping an image of a man as though he were G.d, then I am not doing my whole duty to man. That is not to say that is what YOU have to do. It is what I had laid on my heart.

This is why I have given so much historical backdrop concerning how the false teachings developed. Is it Paul's fault, or is it instead the fault of those who mislead? Or, could it also be the fault of those who wish to be misled? Yes, there are those who wish to be misled.

As for what has been laid on your heart... I understand completely. I just think it can be accomplished without causing division between the baby Christians and the matured.

Of course the baby christians would find it most difficult to survive in an atmosphere such as ATS. So, we are mostly faced with the maturing. Yet, it would be good, so very good if those baby christians who do show were given the chance to hear from the more mature without first having their security blanket snatched away and assaulted. What does that do but make them cling to their foundation of sand even more... it is all they know.

I'd rather address their contradictions in thinking rather hold their beliefs in contempt, which only encourages the human nature of backing up until cornered causing them to lash out with the result that nothing is accomplished. And, the maturing often do act superior to those who are in the very position that we were once in ourselves.

Sure, we can all pat ourselves on the back and pretend we are superior to Paul, but the mysteries he knew and that I know he knew, only shows the degree of ignorance that we ourselves cling to. It is not my intent to be judgmental of this for I myself have engaged in my full share of contempt and superiority (for the whole she-bang, rather than just Paul). It would be just as hypocritical of me to judge this behavior as it is to look down on Paul's teachings in order to get others to investigate.

Paul never once said Jesus is God. It is as Peter said: Paul is hard to understand, and which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It goes both ways as I see it.

It's as if the baby Christians have a pack of wolves descending upon them without mercy.

Having Jewish blood (the watered down version of course haha) and therefore being drawn to understand that recently discovered part of me yet at the same time understanding christianity from a completely non jewish standpoint, I have been put in a position to see where the flaws are.

The same is true for me.

continued..

reply to post by justamomma


continuing on...

That is not to say that EVERY sentence in his writings should be condemned as heresy. That, however, was not my point of the thread. It was to point out that worship of Jesus as G.d was not something that was based on the Torah and the Tanakh.

The teachings of today's church/religion that says that Jesus is God are also not based on the scriptures... old testament or new.

The fundamental aspect of the Jewish belief system that Paul has taken out with his misconstruing of the Old Testament and the message of Jesus was that G.d is in the NOW. G.d is with us always. To rest in G.d and follow His ways is not something that has to be pathetically hoped for or waited on.

The rest of the new testament scriptures could be read the same way. I don't limit this problem to Paul's writings alone.

I think that the true challenge is getting people beyond wanting only the milk and getting to the meat of the message, which involves the transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension and that the waiting on the Lord, is actually the waiting on God to lift us to Him in the Now.

As long as people use anything "religious" to separate themselves, make themselves superior or condemn others, then their own holy text is severely misunderstood.

Paul focus' on *what* we get and because it is a false perception, the how we get it is false as well.

There's a story about Moses that I like. Of course, this will be paraphrased as it is from memory: One day Moses was walking along and he overheard a simple man praying aloud. This man was praying: O God how I love you. If I could, I would wash your hair and I would comb it till it shone. If I could, I would then bathe your feet and hands, clean your nails ... at which point Moses interrupted the man and harshly told him he was a fool for praying as he was and to never engage in prayer in that fashion again.

Later, God scolded Moses for harming that man whom was worshiping Him in the only way he knew how.

This scolding reminds me of Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Paul did ultimately take the message to the world, but there was deception in it. Look around at the recent list on this board. If more people understood G.d's way and understood that He will only be found in THIS moment (not the past and not the future), there wouldn't be so much fear, panic, and confusion. It is this fear, panic, and confusion that is growing as less and less people understand who they are and who G.d really is and where He is found. I could not keep quiet.

I would not want you to.

We could go into all the reasons for the fear, panic and confusion too. Revelation and the thought forms created from it, when that book is actually describing the ascension process. With the thought forms created around it, it just might play out as it is "imagined" to.

I don't ask anyone to accept what I say and in fact, I highly discourage it. I just ask them to understand the what their belief is based on.

I understand.

G.d is a G.d of knowledge, wisdom, understanding. I will say that I do understand the points that you make about Paul. The point that I make is that the god Jesus is not based on the teachings in the Hebrew text. I am hoping to encourage others to dig in and get to know where their beliefs stem from. Knowledge is the key to understanding. Blind faith only leads to death.

May we all serve in such a way.

Originally posted by firegoggles
The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,
and I have not been rebellious;
I have not drawn back.
I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.
He who vindicates me is near.
Who then will bring charges against me?
Let us face each other!
Who is my accuser?
Let him confront me!
It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me.
Who is he that will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let him who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
—Isaiah 50:5-10, NIV

In Isaiah 1:1 We can see who the prophecy is for and the time frame. I have just recently come to understand this prophecy and so my explanation may be a bit shaky.

I did however find a good explanation that may help you in your understanding of it. I hope this helps!! www.geocities.com...

And the God of the bible that your so desperately trying to reach through your own works(which is impossible BTW) any way his name is Y`shua which some claim actually means "The Lord God" in Hebrew.

I will take your stabbing remark with a grain of salt

Actually, the meaning for the name in Hebrew is "Salvation"

Oh and this is family tree becomes very interesting when we look at the meanings behind each original "Hebrew" name. check it out for yourself.

Will write out the definitions beside the names as there needs to be some corrections made.

Adam – Man (the hebrew translation is "earth"... what you are claiming is the Hebrew translation is actually the Babylonian translation)

Seth – Appointed (close enough)

Enoch – Mortal (trained, dedicated, profound)

Kenan – Sorrow (acquire)

Mahalalel - The Blessed God (close enough)

Jared - Shall come down (close enough)

Enoch – Teaching (as I pointed out above)

Methuselah - His death shall bring ("man of dart" and occasionally "when he dies, it shall be sent")

Lamech – Despairing (curious where you got this definition)

Noah - Rest, or comfort. (quiet and peace ... as well)

I can list a pages of versus all pointing to Y'shua being the Saviour, using only the O.T.. I can use only the first 5 books and psalms and still list a gob of them.

That would be because Y'shua translates into salvation. There were many people with that name. Barabas was actually Jesus .. aka Y'shua(Bar Abas) and yet, why not he?

And the actual hebrew word is yĕshuw`ah... it is a feminine noun that means welfare, prosperity, deliverance, salvation, victory.

I respectfully submit that you have some insight and all that in some areas and that's great. But what your doing here is more or less claiming that your "goodness" or your ability to follows "The Law"(which I highly doubt) is saving you. Impossible. You being good will not change anything.

YOu are entitled to your opinion and you can highly doubt anything you like, but I see the wisdom in the way of G.d. I don't take credit for that.

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119: 118
Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

Eccl 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

I have stated before, G.d's Law is a mirror. It is a way to align oneself. Just as a child comes in and has to learn, so do we. Hence Psalm 119: 118. I know who my Saviour is and I know the way of salvation is through the Laws. It makes sense... trusting in a human sacrifice made by another man over 2,000 years ago to save my soul makes NO sense whatsoever and it contradicts the Law of G.d. Our perspective of G.d changes when we turn to Him and walk after Him, but He never does. Therefore, He would not contradict His Law.

It will not change the fact that mankind is in a prison ran by the fallen angels.

Why do you displace the guilt.. curious, do you think this will work? And if it the fault of Satan/fallen angels, then why the risk of punishment that is taught by christianity?

Satan was completely in control of human beings even at death by some sort of squatters rights to mankind. ONLY Y'shua was able to defeat the curse Adam brought on and free us from this imprisonment that Satan had implemented. You speak as though your have hidden knowledge and enlightenment. I see no evidence of this other than spewing basic "Hebrew" religion the very thing that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for.

Shall I list all the Old testament scriptures that prove Jesus and the God of Abraham are the same? What is so hard to understand that God places his DNA in Mary so he could manifest in our world and become the sacrifice? I mean you can understand the symbolic sacrifice of the animals that the Children of Israel used to do for a 1000 years but you can't see the same plan implemented and manifest in Jesus? humm something is very wrong here I just can't put my finger on it...dare I say your deceiving yourself and I pray all is revealed, seems your on a journey and I believe Jesus is going to draw you to him in the end..

Any hoo that's my two cents. Good luck with the religious thread though...*cough* never minding it really does absolutely nodda for humanity.FG

Okay, well... thanks for sharing your views.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

[edit on 4-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by walman
I have reason to believe that goes beyond faith alone. But I do not discount authority, and never will - the same way that Abraham did not question God when God asked him to sacrifice Issac. He also had reason, but his understanding was not on par with God. He had absolute devotion and obedience to his credit, and to be so devoted and obedient to God is greater than understanding. Read...

Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[a] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

God has never told me anything is true or false. Not once. Instead, I have been given understanding so that I can see for myself what is true or false.

It's a matter of do you take authority as truth, or do you take truth as authority. I do not believe because of prophecy, I do not believe Jesus is right because he is the son of god. I believe because I know what he spoke is truth.

This doesn't go against your doubting thomas quote. Yes, they are blessed, but that doesn't mean they should speak as if they know - because they don't. They are simply repeating from authority.

Originally posted by badmedia
It's a matter of do you take authority as truth, or do you take truth as authority.

Very well said The truth goes beyond faith. It is knowledge that is understood. It is light that leads those who heed it on the right path.

reply to post by justamomma

Thank you. Someone else pointed me in the direction of your thread as well. What I have read thus far has certainly give me something to ponder and since thinking is one of my favorite things to do.... good thread


I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to what I have put forth in this thread

Well thank you! Thinking is one of my favorite things also. That, and rocking the boat!! I see that you do that well, too!

reply to post by justamomma


What is your take on the rest of the New Testament? The Gospels, the Epistles of James, Peter, Jude, etc. ?