Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Originally posted by TheFretwalker It made all the difference for me. Now I only read the Jewish Scriptures.
It's changed my life in good ways.
Great post!

It did mine too! Those close to me are starting to consider what I say regarding this (most being christian) simply because it is *that* drastic of a change!

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

im only going to half quote some of the scriptures because as it is, my reply is going to end up being several posts long.

Originally posted by justamomma
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.....

This directly contradicts what Ezekiel said:
Ezek 36:26-28 .....And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes(laws), and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. .....

Now, I am sure the argument will be that “the end of the law” means that he is the “sum” of the law, as I have heard, but yet Jesus (as we are told of him in the Bible) shows that this in not what is meant.

the question would be, the end of WHICH law. the mosaic law had three separate ¨facets¨

the moral facet is eternal. yes, jesus fulfilled the law, but murder is still wrong. stealing is still wrong etc etc. (this is likely what ezekial is referring to)

there is judicial law. these laws governed isreal as a nation. helped to control things like business transactions, slavery, inheritance. in a way, these laws dont apply to christians because we are not a literal nation. however, these laws can serve as principles for situations that we experience.

there is ceremonial law. this in particular was done away with, since it was symbolic of the messiah and what he would do. jesus did infact ¨end¨ or fulfill this law. why would christians continue to prepare sacrifices when sacrifices were no longer needed. (this is likely what paul is referring to)

paul is not contradicting ezekial, they are just talking about separate things.

Exodus 31: 13-14, 16 .... Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; ...... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:.......Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Leviticus 19: 30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. (note… the LORD *is* G-d).

OVER and OVER G-d continues to reinforce HOW important it is for Israel to REMEMBER this Holy day…… it was a day set aside as a sign between Israel and G-d. And yet:
After Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath, here is what he says…
John 5: 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

This is in DIRECT contradiction to what G-d laid out for Israel. How cruel is that to lay out that Israel must be observant of the Sabbath day over and over, (punishable BY death for non compliance), turn around and send a man who not only thumbs his nose at this ordinance but also says that now the Father is thumbing his nose at it (though G-d had NOT said that he had changed His mind on this command) and expect all to believe this man who is contradicting what they had been told or they would be eternally damned! It makes NO sense and it is a farce. If it is NOT a farce, then there is REASON to be afraid because there is a game being played with man. It also goes to show you that Paul really MEANT “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.”

ok i understand your reasoning, but you have one important component missing. jesus didnt break the sabbath. i say that in that jesus didnt break GOD´s sabbath, he was breaking the pharisee´s sabbath

matt 23:[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
[4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

the pharisee´s ¨traditions¨ were burdensome to the people, the lacked the spirit of the law. his arguement with the pharisees pointed out that charity or cases of necessity DID allow for the bending of the sabbath

matt 12:[2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
[3] But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
[4] How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
[5] Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

matthew 12:[8] For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
[9] And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
[10] And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
[11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
[12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

healing a man was not forbidden by the sabbath. so how is it that jesus didnt keep god´s laws?

Now, we see that Paul will elevate the status of a man that doesn’t keep the commandments of G-d; let’s look at how he viewed those who DID keep the commands of G-d.
Rom 10:1-2 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
(side note: Prov 2:6 says For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. And Psa 119:66 says Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. Hmmm)

paul was telling them that they were missing the point. the people stopped thinking and learning for themselves, they were putting faith in the scribes and pharisees that were loading burdens on them. even solomon (who you quoted) ¨missed¨ the point when he started marrying foreign wives and they started to introduce him to pagan practices. eventually he fell from god´s approval.

Justamomma,
Sorry but I have to completely and disagree with your whole Jewish People vs. Pauline Xtianity.

Here's why: Personally one day I cried out to God during reaching rock bottom in life many many years ago. The very next day an old friend going to school to be a pastor calls me up to see how Im doing and to see if I want to do Bible studies.

I humbly and expectantly obliged seeing this as a sign since the very night before that I cried out to the Heavens, even being an Atheist/agnostic at the time.

for 14 months of Bible studies and checking out the local preachers, things started happening within me. I started changing, my consciousness began to change, I would receive glimpses behind the veil so to speak. Then I get baptized and 5 weeks later receive the Enlightenment that comes from the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That was a highlight of my life. Now after receiving this Enlightenment, I began questioning many of my friends from all different backgrounds if they have ever gone through any Enlightenment and here's what I found.

My muslim friends, none of them knew what I was talking about nor did they know anybody claiming this Enlightenment. Same for all my jewish torah friends, my agnostic friends, and so on.

The only Non-Xtian group of people that claimed any Spiritual Mystical experiences where my Yogi/Buddhist friends.

Hmmmm interesting!!!!

So then I started to get into the various versions of Xtianity. I found this whole Anti-Paul group. And it never worked for me simply because many times Paul was discussing the characteristics of having the Spirit and the Enlightenment that comes with it (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)

And I was like: "Whoa, thats the same stuff Im experiencing" And many times I would see Paul speaking on mystical realities and truths that only somebody Enlightened with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would know. Like many many times he talks about death of the old self, which in modern circles is known as Ego Death

Also, historically, first a very old school Jewish based Christianity was the prominent version right after Jesus' ascension, and then that version died out and the Pauline version flowered and overtook.

And it makes sense, simply because in the old way, everything was Jewish only based, extremely strict, no enlightenment, with thousands of rules that were impossible to be followed. Whereas in Pauline version it was universal and available for everyone and something that happens within you. The Jewish OT based version didnt want to include non-jews, and paul said its cool, its for everybody.

So Of course your seeing "so called contradictions" because before Jesus came everything was Faith and law based. Laws that were almost in the thousands and impossible to follow, and no enlightenment.

Jesus came and flipped the whole script upside down. Now its easy and simple to get enlightenment, the Laws become written in your heart, for example being peaceful, content, no swearing, good mannered, control over thoughts/emotions/words/actions, and so on.

It has become a direct experience form of Spirituality, vs. an old fear based I broke the law and have to sacrifice animals for it once a week at the temple. Even in parts of the OT its predicted Jesus would come and change everything and thats what happened.

Now you said you used to go to church and hear all tis stuff and never got anything out of it. Well, sometimes the preacher sucks, sometimes it just not doing anything for the person because soon as they leave that place to go right back to the old familiar self, or another number of various factors that come into play as to why you never got anything out of it. Perhaps look into Eastern Orthodoxy or Xtian Mysticism.
_____
Then you have the Gnostic Christians (1 group for example the Cathars) and these Gnostics believed the God of the OT was a demiurge or lesser God. Jealous, constantly changing his mind, Joshua killed armies, women, and children in God's name, after the flood God regrets killing everyone and vows never to do so again.

But the God Jesus brings forth and teaches about is Transcendent, Infinite Love, Grace, Forgiveness.

Yes I do claim spiritual Enlightenment and no I have never experienced God as shown in the OT, but I have experienced God as shown in the NT.

Of course I dont know if this Gnostic theory is true. It does reconcile my concerns over many of the things God did in the OT, if its true. If its not, then really who am I to question my maker. Besides, I'll find ou the truth when I die one day anyway, so really its no big deal

Im a fence walker on the Gnostic theory issue. But Paul is completely cool with me, everything makes sense and I can definitely tell he had the Spirit and was Enlightened. All those contradictions are only right one way or the other, and to me, I see the right way in each of them.

Everything else is arguing circles when the purpose of the NT is for you to transcend beyond logic, reason, and debating.

Interesting thread. A few things I'll get out quickly.

1. I am also a Ron Paul supporter. I sent him $2300 before he raised his first million. (yes, somewhat proud of that, I never got involved in politics before and donated such to anyone)

2. I do study sacred geometry, and I do think it is a building block of the universe, a result of logic FROM god(consciousness), but is not actually god.

Now, as far as Jesus being "God". Jesus is a son of God, and knew it. He is my brother. Where Paul goes wrong is that he see's and portrays Jesus as the ONLY son of god. Where Paul goes wrong is that he puts too much into the image of Jesus, rather than the actions of Jesus. Over and over Paul contradicts the things Jesus said.

Someone MAY find answers and god in the bible and in Pauls words. I am not going to try and limit such things. However, it is my opinion that if true, you found these things in spite of, not because of. Because you were still doing what is required and that is too seek. And I'd be willing to bet that in doing so, you have skipped over many things. Paul builds up an idol. When he praises that idol, if you can see beyond the idol, then you can still see truth. It is when people become a follower of Paul, and take what Paul says over what Jesus says that things become a problem. Most of the times I can somewhat see what Paul is saying, and what he says isn't exactly a flat out lie, but it only gives you part of the truth. And half the truth is often the greatest lie. I call this bait and switch. Bait with half the truth, then switch and change the result by means of not telling the whole truth.

Here's an example. Paul will say something like "believe and accept Jesus". Not exactly a lie. But he doesn't mention that those who believe will follow the path and example Jesus gave. And of course, Jesus says - those who believe will walk the path. While what Paul says isn't exactly a lie, it in itself ends up being a lie because what has happened is a bunch of people walk around saying Jesus, carrying physical crosses around their necks and they believe as long as they believe in those idols, they are saved. Does anyone here believe Jesus walked around with a cross around his neck? Does anyone believe this is what Jesus meant by carrying the cross? Why have cheap physical substitutions been given instead?

If we must seek the truth, then why are these things hand feed to us from birth so long as we will accept it? Why is it that most of the people I find with understanding are people who didn't just accept what they were hand feed, but actually went out and seeked for themselves? If you ask me, it's because when it's hand feed it's done preemptively to try and keep people from seeking, and from trying to be a way of telling people they are wrong based on those understandings when they do seek.

When I first became enlightened and knew the truth, I had christian after christian tell me I was in contact with Satan. I told them I am god and I am arguing with myself(meaning all was god). As I didn't get my understanding from the bible, I didn't phrase my understanding in terms of the bible. And even though I was repeating the stuff from the bible almost exactly in meaning, these things were dismissed as being a bunch of nonsense. And the further I go along, the further I see the things I learned were in fact in the bible. John 14:20 says god is within me, where I looked and this christians denied of me. There is a verse in Psalms that says were are all God and such, and this Christians denied of me. Those who follow Paul believe these things are not actually possible. That these things are only things Jesus the idol can do. Even though again - Jesus these things and MORE can you do. But everytime I said these things, was it ever the words of Jesus I got sent back to me as why I was wrong? No. It is ALWAYS the words of Paul that do it. Can this be pure coincidence? I don't think so.

Jesus says he will appear to people in the form of a vision or a dream. Exactly what I experienced(although the name Jesus was never mentioned) - and I had no idea this was even said at the time. I was taught that names and symbols are not the truth, they are only shadows of the truth which are merely used as expressions of truth. Stories and events that express truth. Truth that can be expressed in anynumber of ways. A + B = C is truth, 1 + 1 = 2 is merely a symbol and expression of truth. If you focus solely on 1 + 1 = 2, then you are blind to the real truth, and will not be able to recognized that 1+2 = 3 is the SAME truth, expressed differently.

I also seen mention that some people believe the god of the old testament to be different than the god of the new testament. This I do not know exactly. However, I do know that the physical god of the old testament is nothing I have ever experienced.

However, if you worship Jesus then you are putting another God before God. Which is a no-no, and something Jesus even says not to do. Jesus doesn't say worship him. Jesus says BELIEVE in him and his example. When asked for the simplest way to understand commandments, Jesus says - Love GOD, not Jesus as the first, and the 2nd is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Those who worship Jesus as God lick the bowl instead of drinking the milk the bowl brings.

I mention this because I seen mention that Jesus was for the Jews. Yes, this is true. But I am not so sure this is to say that only these people are saved or Sons of God. Rather, this messenger was meant for a specific culture to bring understanding to that culture. I believe that each culture is going to get their own unique messengers in a way they will understand. 1 culture may get to understand a + b = c as 1 + 1 = 2, but another culture may come to understand the same truth as 1+2 = 3. Both are the same truth UNDER the symbols and idols(a + b = c), it is just being expressed differently. This is important because this has to do with 1 world religion. Those who seek this can not see the truth (a + b = c), instead they see their own messenger as the only truth. And thus, the people who believe 1+1 = 2 argue and fight - THIS IS THE TRUTH. And the other side who believes 1 + 2 = 3 says - NOOOOO, THIS IS THE TRUTH! Now, each of them is right in their own individual beliefs, but because they do not actually understand what is being said, they do not see the truth in the other side. And so they fight. Carrying around their equations back and forth, fighting for their bit of "truth" and trying to convert people into it. So because of this, they will only be happy when there is a 1 world religion. They will only be happy when they see their equation everywhere, and people only say their equation. And in the process they are completely ignorant and without understanding of the equation, and thus it's all for nothing and completely useless. Any fool can know 1+1 = 2. But you can't add until you actually understand 1+1 = 2, and when you actually understand you won't be arguing with someone who says 1+2=3 - you will know they also see truth. But you know they do not understanding 1+2=3 when they say = well 1+1=2 is wrong.

And ironically, even a+b=c is merely just another symbol in itself, only by understanding variables will does it have understanding in itself. And to focus and limit God to being Jesus is the same as saying only 1+1=2 is true. To focus and say this is the only word of God is to say only 1+1=2 is true and 1+2=3 is false.

1+2=0 is however a false statement. But do we know this is false because we know 1+1=2? Or do we know this is false because we understand why 1+1=2? When you truly understand, then you can point out what is true and false. While you may learn this truth from either 1+1=2, 1+2=3 or any number of equations, the point is that you learn it, not how you learned it.

Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. Any fool can know 1+1=2, but they still do not understand.

Da Vinci said - "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory."

Anyone who argues 1+1=2 is just appealing to authority and using their memory, those who understand 1+1=2 are using their intelligence.

reply to post by miriam0566


Very good... almost. As you go further down in my post, you will see that he, Paul is trying to make a case for his invented savior. If you will notice in my other posts, I don't deny that Jesus might have wanted to help enlighten the Jewish people, but he was not G-d and should not be worshipped as G.d, nor should one base him being G.d on the Hebrew Texts which do not support the notion of G.d being a man. He also SAID specifically and cleary who he wanted to reach. He came FOR the house of Israel and not the gentiles...

So, while you made good points, you have failed to understand the full context of my whole post.

Perhaps you are not finished though since you said it would be several posts long.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

perhaps you would be interested in this thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...

Greetings justamomma,

This thread is about Paul, yet there was mention of Jesus as savior. So, I'll give some thoughts about that first.

It seems to me that the Hebrew nation has had several saviors. Moses, of course, immediately comes to mind. Jonah too comes to mind even though he was a reluctant savior and was actually displeased that Nineveh repented. Then, there is a whole batch of Sons of Man mentioned in the Old Testament too as well as the many prophets sent to call for repentance.

So, the statements made to MatrixTraveler implying, or so it seemed to me, that God does not need to send saviors tends to be questionable.

Yet, why is it taught that one person can save the entire world? Could it be that the entire expanse of manifested creation is "the Only begotten son" of God, which is called Christ? That piece of God that God has placed inside each of us, whether awake or asleep, is the only begotten son... that it is Christ. If it is, then Christ draws to itself... that which is of God.

God is Love. That to me is a fact. God is also Life, another fact, to me. Jesus taught the spirit of the law, which is based in love, and he also exposed the treachery of the letter of the law devoid of it's spirit of love. That treachery which denies compassion and is therefore deadly.

It seems to me that the Hebrew nation was/is to be a nation of priests to bring knowledge of the One God to all people of the world. It is also apparent to me that there are many emanations of this One God. I find that the totality of God is vast and to limit God in any fashion would tend to cause my own understanding to be limited too, which lol it is anyway when put against the vastness and ineffable totality of God.

Within this vastness of God, in which we live, I see and perceive that there is an abundance of life that isn't always visible. Don't the rabbi's (depending on sect) teach of the living... even though they may have physically departed? Is not the Spirit active? Doesn't that Spirit of God act on what is within us, if we are willing?

So, what is being saved? Is it following the dictates and laws of religion? Or is it the finding of what religion points to... that only begotten son of God within us? Christ. How does one man save the whole world? By leading us to agape love, our true nature within us, and away from anything that is not of agape love.

Through the finding of this, we find Life. The true life and not the life that Jesus referred to as: Let the dead bury the dead. Yes, as another poster indicated the world is a corpse. Until that is, the Life within us is made manifest. Then, we are apart from the world yet still within it.

Is Christ the savior of the world? Yes, but at present it is only one person at a time. Did Jesus teach so that we could come to know Christ, yes. Did Paul? Yes.

The complaints of Paul that you mentioned... butchering the writings of the Old Testament for instance. His understandings were based on the old testament writings... of course he would refer to them. So what that he didn't refer to them in full? He was talking to Gentiles, and in my own experience in talking to people of other religions, with each of us having a bit of knowledge on one another's texts, we will refer to them in part, but then we go on to speak of the fullness of the understandings to be had either with our own words or compare them to our respective holy text. The language/word of God is understood between those who have awakened to the only begotten son of God within us... no matter what religion a person may hail from.

Again and always... Paul was sent to the Gentiles... as a priest to the whole world as the nation of Israel was supposed to do and still is supposed to. Yet, Jews actively discourage converts to Judaism and I have never had one knock on my door to teach me anything. It has always been I alone who search after their understandings.

Gentiles were never subject to the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant in totality, which Judaic rabbis know. Paul related his God given knowledge in his God given mission using the texts he grew up with. What? We should expect him to all of a sudden relate his understandings as a Buddhist or a Hindu would?

As for Paul saying that Jesus is God, that has not been proven to me scripturally. What has been proven to me, however, is that the bloody roman empire twisted Jesus', Paul's and the words of the other apostles to have that heretical meaning.

You may not have noticed, but I have mentioned in several places on this forum that it is most unfortunate that Christians do not understand the Judaic teachings, which Paul, Jesus and the apostles knew. Christians do not know the foundation that their religion is built on.

Why is this?

Was it the bloody roman empire that caused the schism for their own purposes? Or did the Judaic community also contribute to this unfortunate state of affairs when they did not allow persons of the way, Christians, to be considered a sect within Judaism any longer?

When Judaism no longer allowed Christians to be a part of their religion, Christians no longer had immunity from the roman law that required everyone, other than those within the Judaic religion, to declare Caesar to be God. Those Christians would not declare a man to be God. Yet, the bloody roman empire would, and did require it. In time, they just changed which man was to be called God from Caesar to Jesus.

The Romans took advantage of the situation provided by the Jews. And somewhere along the line, the romans instigated "the Jews killed Jesus" rant forever cementing a divide.

So, tell me? Who created the idol? Who created the lack of understanding of the Judaic teachings? We can fight forever over whose fault it is, when it is actually equally shared.

Doesn't change the fact that God is always drawing us to Him, and He is willing to use any means that might work for an individual. Paul, Tao, etc... God is Jealous, yes, he wants ALL/everyone to love him above anything in this dead world within which life/love/God can be found.

Found to be living inside of us as well as finding that it is actually we who live inside Him too.


edited for clarification

[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Greetings justamomma,
It seems to me that the Hebrew nation has had several saviors.

Hello L.I.B!

Good point. And they did and they will again.
2 Kings 13: 5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah19: 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

The saviour used in the Old Testament is translated from the Hebrew word yasha`. When a saviour (Niphal) comes to Israel, they are sent by G.d to save (in battle), be victorious. G.d as the Saviour (Hiphil) is THE ONE to save, deliver, to save from moral troubles, and to give victory.

Now let's look at the NT (s)Saviour.

Titus 1: 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Titus 3: 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

I Peter 1: 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The Saviour of the NT comes from the greek word sōtēr. The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes)... and of course, Jesus.


So, I stand by what I said. In the context and understanding of the words, there is ONLY ONE Savior. He will send *s*aviours to free His children from physical bondage, but He alone is the Saviour.


I will get to the rest of your post after while, along with all the others that I have not yet responded to. Thank you all for your inputs.



[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


Hi!

Yes, the Greek testament... it is a bother isn't it?

The apostles, though, didn't they speak Aramaic? Wouldn't the original language have used the appropriate word for savior? I, personally, go with the intent*, which would be the same kind of savior as the Hebrews would have understood it. Paul spoke Hebrew so I would think his intent would have been the correct one too. He was afterall an observant Jew even while teaching the Gentiles.

*The spirit, rather than the letter.

I had thought of including the scripture mentioning Jesus' birth that says that "a" savior was born, rather than THE savior was born, but figured that that would have opened up a can of worms regarding genealogies, which I really don't want to get into, lol... that stuff just makes my eyes glaze over.

Also edited to add: One of the reasons that the apostles decided to not burden the gentiles with the whole of the Mosaic Law was: "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Acts 15:21

Therefore, those Gentiles, during that time that they were allowed to be part of the Judaic religion would also have known of the correct terminology/intent of savior.




edit for spelling

[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by cancerian42
perhaps you would be interested in this thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...

While I have not read that particular thread, I have heard such on Judas. The question of roles is not the point of this thread though. I am just trying to share knowledge that Jesus as THE god and the one in whom we should place our hope is not an idea that is or can be supported through the Hebrew texts (unless, of course they are manipulated).

I will however read through that thread when I have a bit more time and do look forward to, what I am sure are interesting and thoughtful insights. Thank you for sharing it.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Very good... almost. As you go further down in my post, you will see that he, Paul is trying to make a case for his invented savior. If you will notice in my other posts, I don't deny that Jesus might have wanted to help enlighten the Jewish people, but he was not G-d and should not be worshipped as G.d, nor should one base him being G.d on the Hebrew Texts which do not support the notion of G.d being a man. He also SAID specifically and cleary who he wanted to reach. He came FOR the house of Israel and not the gentiles...

So, while you made good points, you have failed to understand the full context of my whole post.

Perhaps you are not finished though since you said it would be several posts long.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

actually yea.. lol i had to run off to a wedding, so i didnt have time to finish. i still dont tonight because im just sooooo tired lol

basically i will finish, but in short, paul isnt saying that jesus is god either. thats a doctrine that was solidified around the 4th century. ill explain later, im sorry

Originally posted by miriam0566
actually yea.. lol i had to run off to a wedding, so i didnt have time to finish. i still dont tonight because im just sooooo tired lol

basically i will finish, but in short, paul isnt saying that jesus is god either. thats a doctrine that was solidified around the 4th century. ill explain later, im sorry

No rush. Glad to hear you have more to share with us. I look forward to it. You seem to understand the point I am trying to make even though we may be standing on different sides of the fence as far as views. Hope the rest of your day goes well for you.





[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

Okay, so I have read and reread the most recent posts and there are points which are basically the same, so I will pull out those points and address them in this post in order that I don't find myself saying the same thing over and over.

By the way, Hi BadMedia! I am glad that you contributed your thoughts to this thread. I am also glad to see that we agree on Ron Paul! I hope that this New Year brings you fulfillment in all you set out to do


Now... onward

1. What are we being saved from and how are we to be saved? Let's see what the Hebrew texts say and then what Paul says.

Deut 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezek 18:20-21,27
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

* So here we see that if one sins, their soul dies. How are we saved according to this? Well, we turn away from our wickedness and do that which is lawful and right. This is how salvation is obtained.


Isa 45:21-23
...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me(not Jesus) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

* And here we see that G.d alone can provide salvation.
* Every knee will bow to G.d, not to Jesus.

Psa 49:7-9
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

Hmmm....

And of course

Psalm 19: 7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

*the law of G.d is PERFECT (not that it *will* be perfect). Just the very fact that some of you can NOT understand this verse and the BEAUTY that is in it (gives me shivers) testifies to your lack of enlightenment.

What does Paul say?

Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Contradicts Psa 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

The law is a source of salvation and the truly enlightened understand this.

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Contradicts Psa 119:152,160 Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever.

G.d's law is eternal. It will never be cancelled and this is something to rejoice in. The only ones who don't rejoice in this are the wicked and those who haven't taken any REAL time to understand and if you have and still don't see it, then dare I say, you are the unenlightened. (remember, there are the Noahide Laws and then there are the laws specifically for those under the covenent).

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Contradicts Psa 119:1-5 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies(laws), and that seek him with the whole heart.
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Thou(God) hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

The enlightened are those who have been brought to a place to understand the BRILLIANCE of the Laws of G-d. It is NOT a curse, but it IS salvation and it IS the way of Life.

So, Paul DOES undermine the Laws of G.d and he DOES teach that JESUS is the way of righteousness and that we will fall at HIS feet to worship.

Deut 26:16-17
This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes(laws), and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:

Those who LOVE G.D do not just toss aside His Laws. Those who Love G.d OBEY HIS LAWS, yes WITH ALL THEIR heart, soul, and mind!!


Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

G.d doesn't require a human sacrifice to redeem sins and it is not even legal under His perfect Law.

Ezek 18:20-22
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.


Each man will die for his own sins and it is through this personal enlightenment that one comes to understand the wisdom of G.d's Law and if he TRULY understands, he will WANT to keep the Law of G.d.

It is in *that* that I consider Jesus could have been sent to enlighten THE JEWS, but Paul completely twisted the meaning and created a false god!!

Have more to draw from in the above posts and will get to those straight away

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

Not all Christians worship Jesus or believe in the Trinity. The ones that do are known as Trinitarians and the ones that don't are Unitarians (belief that Jesus was only God's prophet and Messiah, but not his son and not God himself).

Both belief systems were prominent in the early days of the Bible (when the Bible as we know it was not constructed together.) With the Council of Nicea's meeting, the Unitarian belief was made illegal and books condoning the belief system were burned. Those who carried such books were faced with the punishment of death.

Though there was much turmoil for Unitarians, there are still Unitarian Christian faiths existing today.

if the jews are the sons of god and are made in the image of god ,i really couldn't handle it if god came back and he looked like the jews,i always pictured a god to be beautiful,but having long curls hanging from their ears , dressed in black,weird hats and very emotional, screaming at everyone and banging their heads against a brick wall, just turns me right of their god,i hope their understanding of the book is wrong.

reply to post by justamomma


Greetings,

Each man will die for his own sins and it is through this personal enlightenment that one comes to understand the wisdom of G.d's Law and if he TRULY understands, he will WANT to keep the Law of G.d.

I take it from this statement that you understand the crucifixion, which is followed by resurrection and ascension while living?

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I take it from this statement that you understand the crucifixion, which is followed by resurrection and ascension while living?

Hi L.I.B.

I do believe that we both view this the same way. It seems that from what I have read in your posts we are in agreement. I add a disclaimer just in case I have missed something.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

So, if you believe that the Old Testament Laws of sin and sacrifice still apply, do you
use goat's blood for atonement?

Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

Prophesy of Jesus' sacrifice for man in Isaiah;

Isaiah 53:4-5, 10, 11:

"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him . . . But the Eternal was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. . . . My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities."

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I take it from this statement that you understand the crucifixion, which is followed by resurrection and ascension while living?

Hi L.I.B.

I do believe that we both view this the same way. It seems that from what I have read in your posts we are in agreement. I add a disclaimer just in case I have missed something.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

Greetings

It does certainly does appear that we do view this the same way. It seems to me too that only those who have experienced it within Christianity are those who have gone through it. And, you have?

Yet, curiously there is this disagreement on Paul... lol, as there has been since Paul began his ministry.

I was, and still am, inclined to respond to the rest of your post and it's scripture, but wanted to get your answer on that issue. Yet, I am tired right now too. This cold is finally letting go, but I still am not sleeping through the night and run out of steam before ever getting to nighttime as it is now.

I look forward to more of your postings so that I may further understand, or at the very least contemplate, what has led you to your conclusions and we can discuss our viewpoints.

Peace.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

So, if you believe that the Old Testament Laws of sin and sacrifice still apply, do you
use goat's blood for atonement?

Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

Prophesy of Jesus' sacrifice for man in Isaiah;

Isaiah 53:4-5, 10, 11:

"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him . . . But the Eternal was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. . . . My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities."

In Isaiah 1:1 it is clear who this vision is concerning. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." This particular chapter is speaking of the suffering servant which is to be the messiah (which simply means "annointed).

Isaiah doesn't leave us hanging as to the identity of this servant. The name of this servant isn't Jesus and in fact, this may come as a surprise, but it is actually not *a* person.

Isaiah 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

I might actually expound on this one day, but I'll be giving it its own thread

But just for the record, this had to do with the house of Israel and Judah (the two different kingdoms at the time). Though it occasionally speaks of the gentiles being drawn to Zion, it is clear that it will be because of the light that shines from there via the Jewish people.

Remember, when Jesus gave his sermon on the mount, it was the Jews he was speaking to when he said "ye are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)

The Jewish people had been brought into their land and they had turned to other gods, grown apathetic, and were making a joke of all G.d had done for them. They were hardly being a light for anyone, thus, this is what the prophecy of Isaiah is directed toward.

All these things are just a matter of understanding through the eyes of those in whom these Scriptures were given. We approach the Scriptures through the wrong eyes. What good would it do to take your computer to a mechanic and expect him to fix it? Go to the people in whom the Scriptures were given and things become much more clear.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]