Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

reply to post by justamomma


Hello again,

A week, two or three ago you made a post regarding how it is only those who Jesus came for that are now awakening. Do you recall which post I am referring to? If so, do you happen to remember what thread that was in?

Thank you.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
The complaints of Paul that you mentioned... butchering the writings of the Old Testament for instance. His understandings were based on the old testament writings... of course he would refer to them. So what that he didn't refer to them in full? He was talking to Gentiles, and in my own experience in talking to people of other religions, with each of us having a bit of knowledge on one another's texts, we will refer to them in part, but then we go on to speak of the fullness of the understandings to be had either with our own words or compare them to our respective holy text. The language/word of God is understood between those who have awakened to the only begotten son of God within us... no matter what religion a person may hail from.

Again and always... Paul was sent to the Gentiles... as a priest to the whole world as the nation of Israel was supposed to do and still is supposed to. Yet, Jews actively discourage converts to Judaism and I have never had one knock on my door to teach me anything. It has always been I alone who search after their understandings.

First, I apologize for being so slow about this. I am a bit under the weather myself today

Jews don't actively discourage converts to Judaism. I wasn't discouraged. They do require you to understand the Scriptures that were given to them as they were taught to understand them.

And no, they will not come knocking on your door. Why should they? They do speak to others who come to them and question their Scriptures, but are content to settle for what they hear from the pulpits in their churches. Which is ironic considering....

I was not approached, but rather, I approached them. What I found in the Jewish people astonished me because the picture we have in our heads (thanks to Paul and others who actively seek to discourage others from going to them) is that they are stingy, close minded, and stuck up.

This has NOT been the case at all for me. I have found them to be HIGHLY enlightened and very philosophical. I would have to say that I have found myself MORE enlightened the more I come to understand their Scriptures the way they are meant to be understood.

Life has opened up in ways that I can't even describe through the knowledge that I acquired. It is the correct knowledge and I know this because it testifies to my spirit and to those around me. I have a message. I have never had a message before. I have a purpose. I have never had that either. I know can explain certain experiences that have been increasing in my life over the last year and they are beyond what I could have imagined, yet they are all right there.. spoken of in the Hebrew texts.. but I didn't know that because I was still bound to the teachings of Paul. Until I could understand why his teachings were false, I could not really begin to experience the true enlightenment of G.d.

I would encourage you to read the book of Acts with a discerning eye. He is manipulative with the authorities. He was a coward and devious in his dealings. In his other writings, you can see the undertones of mysticism. There is a big difference between the enlightenment of G.d and mysticism.

There is much bondage in what Paul teaches. He lists out many sins that are fleshly and claims without a clause that those who do those things will go to hell (not even the same concept of hell that Jewish people adhere to) for all eternity.... Yet the Laws of G.d which are NOT bondage, but freedom, he tries to discredit.

Have you ever heard someone put down the character of a friend of yours but they do it in a manipulative way so that, before you know it, you are friends with the manipulative person and you don't think to highly of your friend anymore? This is the tactic Paul uses when he speaks about the Jewish people and the Law of G.d. In one breath he is saying he loves them/it, and in the next, he is tearing it down. G.d gives us intelligence for a reason and we will have no excuse to say that we were deceived.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
reply to post by justamomma

 

Hello again,

A week, two or three ago you made a post regarding how it is only those who Jesus came for that are now awakening. Do you recall which post I am referring to? If so, do you happen to remember what thread that was in?

Thank you.

hmmm... I don't, but it does sound like something I would have said.

The context of something like that would NOT have been to say that he is coming back. Just that his message is finally starting to be understood for its meaning.

I can direct you to the quote where Jesus makes it clear who he was here for.

Matthew 15: 24 "....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

He was speaking to a gentile woman. He told her that "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Although he healed her daughter, it is quite clear that he was apethetic to her as a gentile.

His "mission" was to bring back the lost sheep of Israel. "My sheep hear me and know me" was speaking of the Jewish people that were scattered about in the world. He was not calling gentiles "sheep." He was not here to be their saviour.

Edited to add: Remember, there was much mixing of blood between Jewish people and gentiles. There is residue of light in many people and G.d has made it clear that He loves those children of His too. Those who have this residue of light in them hear this call in the words of Jesus and do not fall for the paganistic god that was spoken of by Paul. They understand the message. It is in their genes to understand the whisper of G.d.

Deuteronomy 30

[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

First, I apologize for being so slow about this. I am a bit under the weather myself today

Just makes it easier for us to be patient with one another.

Jews don't actively discourage converts to Judaism. I wasn't discouraged. They do require you to understand the Scriptures that were given to them as they were taught to understand them.

I too have found them very forthcoming with their understandings, if asked. Some though, just like with anyone from any religion, look down upon Christians and are haughty and superior acting. Contemptuous even. Your experience with the actively discouraging is different than what I have encountered.

This has NOT been the case at all for me. I have found them to be HIGHLY enlightened and very philosophical. I would have to say that I have found myself MORE enlightened the more I come to understand their Scriptures the way they are meant to be understood.

Agreed. As I've said about understanding the foundation.

I know can explain certain experiences that have been increasing in my life over the last year and they are beyond what I could have imagined, yet they are all right there.. spoken of in the Hebrew texts..

I can not only imagine, but can relate as well.

I also see these very things spoken of in the NT also.

...but I didn't know that because I was still bound to the teachings of Paul. Until I could understand why his teachings were false, I could not really begin to experience the true enlightenment of G.d.

Maybe, and not saying it is, it was/is (maybe) your understandings of Paul's teachings that make them seem false. I say that because when I began on "the experiences that go beyond what could be imagined" I threw the entire bible out and turned my back on the whole bible, and anything related to the Abrahamic religions. All of it... I held it all in great disdain. But here I am as I am now. Go figure. It was a phase for me. One that I think most go through, but perhaps few return from.

In a way, I find it very odd that I did this because through those experiences an in depth understanding of the bible had been given me that greatly surpassed what I had before.

In his other writings, you can see the undertones of mysticism. There is a big difference between the enlightenment of G.d and mysticism.

They are not mutually exclusive, however.

There is much bondage in what Paul teaches. He lists out many sins that are fleshly and claims without a clause that those who do those things will go to hell (not even the same concept of hell that Jewish people adhere to) for all eternity.... Yet the Laws of G.d which are NOT bondage, but freedom, he tries to discredit.

I just did a quick search and found not one mention of hell in any of Paul's writings. Checked two different bible versions is all, though.

If the bible is to believed, then it is trusted that the Holy Spirit was falling upon Gentiles, whom had never followed the mosaic law. Paul was an observant Jew, yet he taught Gentiles whom did, do and are receiving the Holy Spirit without need to follow those 613 Laws.

I think he was more trying to get people to understand that if they want to live by the mosaic law then they were bound to live them all... that if one of the 613 laws were broken, it would be the same as breaking them all. That the grace that they had received was not dependent on them taking up those laws, nor was it required of them to do so. The Gentiles are exempt from the vow taken solely by Israel and the apostles agreed upon this matter.

In my other thread, I had asked do you think the apostles were wrong. Do you?

Have you ever heard someone put down the character of a friend of yours but they do it in a manipulative way so that, before you know it, you are friends with the manipulative person and you don't think to highly of your friend anymore?

No. Can't say I have. Guess I don't cotton to manipulation or gossip.

This is the tactic Paul uses when he speaks about the Jewish people and the Law of G.d. In one breath he is saying he loves them/it, and in the next, he is tearing it down.

I understand how it could be viewed this way.

G.d gives us intelligence for a reason and we will have no excuse to say that we were deceived.

Growth in wisdom is a continual thing. As our compassion grows, so does it.




[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

[edit on 3-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by justamomma

hmmm... I don't, but it does sound like something I would have said.

If you do happen to recall, please direct me to it. I remember reading it, and saw your reasoning, but just wanted to read it again.

Thanks

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Maybe, and not saying it is, it was/is (maybe) your understandings of Paul's teachings that make them seem false. I say that because when I began on "the experiences that go beyond what could be imagined" I threw the entire bible out and turned my back on the whole bible, and anything related to the Abrahamic religions. All of it... I held it all in great disdain. But here I am as I am now.

Go figure. It was a phase for me. One that I think most go through, but perhaps few return from.

Funny, I went through this same thing as well. It was the path I chose that ended up leading me back to where I had started.

In a way, I find it very odd that I did this because through those experiences an in depth understanding of the bible had been given me that greatly surpassed what I had before.

Understood because of personal experience.

In his other writings, you can see the undertones of mysticism. There is a big difference between the enlightenment of G.d and mysticism.

They are not mutually exclusive, however.

You do have a point here.. there has been a particular reoccurring experience that I have and I shared it with a Jewish mentor. When he told me what this was, what it could mean if developed, etc. I freaked out. It is something that the prophets had perfected and so the implications of it scared me.

He gave me this bit of advice and it has helped in keeping me grounded, yet open to G.d at the same time.

"Did you know that the best direction to God is horizontal? I mean, opposite to vertical? Do you remember the Golden Rule? "Don't do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." That's how we can best relate to God: Horizontally. Vertically is less than golden; perhaps silverlike. The best way to make sure of God's love is by exercising your love with your fellowman. If we prefer to straightforwardly relate to God, it becomes mysticism, and we lose sense of Reality."

The words are wise.

In my other thread, I had asked do you think the apostles were wrong. Do you?

I am sorry if I did not answer. I must have missed this question. This is kind of one of those double edged swords, ya know

When I read the New Testament, my rule of thumb for acceptance (this is not just with the NT, mind you) is based on the following verse.

Isaiah 8:20. "To the Law (Torah) and the Testimony (Prophets); if they don't speak according to this word, it's because there is no light in them."

Since there is not much known definitively about the origins of the writings in the New Testament, I can't say for sure that some of the things that are written that this verse negates is actually from them. Does that make sense? I am not ANTI the apostles, but in the NT, there are writings that are attributed to them that don't have the light... in that regard, I do not accept some of the writings.

No. Can't say I have. Guess I don't cotton to manipulation or gossip.

haha! Good for you. You should get the general point I am trying to make though, correct?

Growth in wisdom is a continual thing. As our compassion grows, so does it.

Very true

So much confusion in this thread, but there are only a couple of points that I have time to make.

1. While I believe that all of the epistles are divinely inspired, we have to realize that Paul, et al probably had no idea that their letters would one day be declared the infallible word of God. Therefore, context is all important when interpreting the epistles.

Paul himself declared that he attempted to be ‘all things to all men’. Paul was very educated and knowledgeable about the cultures he was visiting, and that he wrote to. He obviously was trying to ‘speak the language’ of those that he visited and wrote to. This easily explains what seems to be Gnostic leanings in much of Paul’s writings, as that was a major influence in Asia Minor where Paul was lead to preach. I would also point out that Rom 13, which many people interpret to teach total submission to government, is probably Paul’s attempt to forestall a possible insurrection by the Roman Christians, as he knew he was about to be put to death by the Roman government, ironically, for being disobedient to them.

2. There is an abundance of evidence in the NT that Yahshua did in fact claim to be God incarnate. If you choose to ignore or discount these scriptures, that is your prerogative.

1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name. Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; "I AM". This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus' time.
Think! Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” When first encountered, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, when we look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” (John 10:33). Now we see an actual claim. The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19. The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18
Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
When many were about to stone Jesus for blasphemy (John 10:30-39), He said to them that said he blasphemed "because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am. John 13:13
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." ( John 14:10)

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17

...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

reply to post by justamomma


I would like to commend your research, and being born Muslim, I was taught from a very young age that the prophet jesus was not the son of God. As you are probably aware, this is written in the Qur'an, as well as the notion that the bible has been tampered with (possibly thank Paul for that?) And wasn't Paul the first Pope?. As for your new age thinking comment, I've come to the realization that New Age thinking is not in any way incompatible with the Abrahamic religions, indeed, it is confirmed by the Holy texts, and if anything, I would say it was what Jesus was teaching. God is Love. We are all a part of God. My opinion is that what we call religion today, was not religion but a spiritual way of living. And as we can see in the modern times, Spirituality evolved into Religion, when it left the hands of the prophets and entered the hands of the men in power. As such I believe the concept that we are Gods is a twisting of the Truth that we are of God, a part of God. Jesus was preaching this, he understood this, he reached a higher density, and spoke of the greatness of God. He told us that in time man will be able to perform miracles such as he did, and even greater miracles. I believe that time is now. Alot of my Muslim brothers and Sisters think I'm insane, but the fact is I've read in the OT, the NT, and the Qur'an things which validate what I'm saying. And It may not help that I meditate for half an hour after each of my daily prayers, lol.

But I've also come to realize that each will come to the understanding of God in his/her own way, if they come to the understanding at all.

[PS] I'd also like to state that from my reading of the OT and the Qur'an, I've come to see that they are almost identical in certain aspects, which makes me wonder. My thoughts on this are as follow, God told Abraham that god would bestow upon Ismail a great nation, because he too was of his seed. I think that God brought down to Moses the law, and after a certain amount of time God decided that the Jewish People were ready for the next step of spiritual enlightenment, so God sent Jesus to teach them of the higher understanding. The not so positively oriented group of Jews (not the whole by any means, more of a minority really) didn't like where this was going, and neither did the romans, and we see how that ended up. Then God, who decided that it was time for Ismails nation to be blessed sent down the Qur'an. Since we are told that prophet Mohammad is the last prophet, it lends credibility to the fact that God's chosen people were the Jews, evidenced by the sending of Jesus to teach higher enlightenment. Since no other prophet would be sent to the Islamic faith to teach this higher spiritual enlightenment, it makes sense. I would like to state that if one reads the Qur'an and the previous scritures ( which the quran says to do) a muslim was also given the ability to reach higher spiritual enlightenment, after all, God is Love. God just did it in a more direct way with the Jews.

I also believe that these are the spoken of End Times, therefore God has opened the eyes of many and given the knowledge of higher spiritual enlightenment to ALL mankind. After all, God is Love.

Peace and Love


[edit on 3-1-2009 by M157yD4wn]

Pure and simple......Yashua warns us about Paul in Matthew chapter 16 when he's talking about the leaven of the Pharisees. More bread (leavened) doesn't necessarily mean better. Yashua, with his few loaves fed thousands twice. In other words, the teachings of Christ are few compared to the teachings and writing of Paul whose teachings dominate the doctrines of modern Christianity. Understand this parable and you will understand the warning. Also, Yashua, through his revelation to John, warns us of the teachings of Balaam who is no other than Paul. Read up on Balaam and you will notice the similarities. These are just some of the passages that address Paul. Probably the most misunderstood is the parable of the wheat and the tares. Also the Revelation to John addresses the seven churches in Asia (Rev 1:4). It is interesting that Paul in 2 Timothy 1:15 states "This thou knowest, all they which are in Asia be turned away from me..." The Ephesians had it right. The Most High commends the Ephesians for trying and finding they that say they are apostles to be liars. (Rev 2:2). Also Revelation 21:14 clearly mentions 12 Apostles. Well if you include Paul, he becomes the 13th......Go figure. There's more, lots more.

To the poster that provided his testimony as to why "Paulianity" must be authentic....When the priests of Pharoah tossed their staffs to the ground, didn't they turn into snakes? Just because you had a life changing experience does not mean that that which may have changed you is of the Most High, for Satan and his angels transform themselves into angels of light. Also, Matthew 7:21-23.

There is only One. Ayah Asher Ayah

reply to post by M157yD4wn


It was Peter, who was (supposedly) to have started 'apostolic rule' for the Roman church.
I thoroughly disagree, because, peter was the 'little' rock' (Petra), the church all over the world is the big rock(Petros).
E.P.S.

Rome teaches that Peter spent the last years of his life in Rome as the first Pope, that the Church was built upon Peter and began in Rome. From there the Church of Rome goes on to declare that the Popes are the successors to Peter in an un-broken line of authority.

There is no scriptural or historic proof that Peter was ever in Rome at all - much less that he was the first Pope. The Church of Rome bases its claims on the following: (1) that Peter is the rock on which the Church is built; (2) that Peter was empowered to forgive sins, and this power is transmitted to his successors (1); and (3) that Peter was the founder and first Bishop of the Church in Rome.

The claim that Peter is the rock on which the Church is built is based on a passage in Matthew 16:18. After Peter has confessed: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", Jesus said to him: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." On this verse Rome bases her whole doctrine; but Christ would never have built His Church on a human being.

It was not upon Peter that the church was to be built, but upon "this rock" - Christ Himself. It was not upon Peter that the church was to be built, but upon "this rock" - Christ Himself. The word for "Peter" in the Greek is 'petros', which means 'a little stone', but Christ said He would build His Church upon another rock - in the Greek 'petra', a large rock. What Jesus meant by the contrast between the large and small rock was that Peter was one of the stones in the church (I Peter 2:3-5), but that Christ Himself was the Foundation Stone (I Corinthians 3:11).
The true Church, the true believers, are a spiritual house in which every believer is a living stone and Christ is the chief foundation and cornerstone. Paul unambiguously declares that Jesus is the Rock, not Peter (I Corinthians 3:11); and Peter actually denies that he himself is the rock. Read Peter's testimony in I Peter 2:4-8, where he says that he is not the rock, but with all other believers only a little stone in the building of God's spiritual house - the true Church.

reply to post by M157yD4wn


That was beautifully written! Thank you for sharing your thoughts here. I feel touched just having read them. I concur with much of what you have said and you have given me much to ponder as well.

reply to post by resistor


A lot of the confusion comes because many are unable to consider that the New Testament is not necessarily given through divine inspiration.

Personally, I have found probably about only 20% that would be compatable with the Torah (the Laws) and the Tanakh (the prophets).

Most ignore the guideline given for discerning who has the light and who does not.

Isaiah 8: 20 To the law (Torah) and to the testimony (the prophets): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Learn the Hebrew Texts through the eyes of who it was given to. The Torah and the prophets should be the filter in which we judge the truly enlightened from those who teach a false enlightment (both of which are found in the new testament). *Sometimes I wonder if this is a test to see who will obey and who will look for the supposed easy route.*

The Torah and the Tanakh serve as a mirror. If you see that G.d as outdated and mean, then this has more to say about you than it does Him and/or His Laws. When you can look at His Law and see Life there, you will have the correct eyes for discernment.

He is a G.d of knowledge; not blind faith and careless belief.

Proverbs 2: 10, 11
When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:




[edit on 3-1-2009 by justamomma]

Hello, I enjoyed your original post and am offering you some scripture for your personal journey. IMHO your question centers on the substitution of Jesus for God. Of course, the Christian belief is that there is a Triune God, which is called the Trinity, and is supported by scripture, which I will illustrate at the end.

If, therefore, Jesus is God, He can take upon Himself the sins of mankind, and receive the full punishment for the sins of mankind. Therefore, there is no more punishment for the sins of mankind, provided men, as individuals, accept this sacrifice of Jesus. Hence, the law is fulfilled in Jesus, and we are justified, or allowed to walk boldly into the presence of God just as we are.

While the word "trinity" is not used in the Bible, per se, the meaning of the word, three in one, is illustrated in scripture.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Rom 6:4, Acts 3:26, I Thes 1:10) The Son (John 2:19-21, 10:17-18), The Spirit (ROm 8:11) or God (Heb 13:20,Acts13:30,17:31)

Who is God?
The Father (Eph 4:6) The Son (Tit 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28, 9:35-37) The Spirit (Gen 1:2, Ps 104:30) or God (Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3)

Who saves mankind?
The Father (I Pet 1:3) The Son (John 5:21, 4:14) The Spirit (John 3:6, Tit 3:5) or God (I John 3:9)

Who justifies man?
The Father (Jer 23:6, II Cor 5:19)
The Son (Rom 5:9, 10:4, II Cor 5:19,21) The Spirit (I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:5) or God (Rom 45:6, 9:33)

Who sanctifies man?
The Father (Jude 1), The Son (Tit 2:14), The Spirit (I Pet 1:2) or God (Ex 31:13)

The Trinity is shown clearly. Additionally, the functions of each person of the godhead are shown in I Cor 8:6 and John 15:26: Of the Father, by the Son, through the Spirit.

We also note from scripture that Jesus could be in many places at one time while He was alive on earth. For example, when he sent forth is disciples on their first missionary effort before His death, He told them that "Wherever two or more of you are gathered together, there am I in the midst of you." Additionally, we note that while Jesus was on earth He was also in heaven simultaneously as shown in John 3:13.

So we have a complex God, a Triune God, and no wonder. We all want to be able to conceive of what He is like, but we cannot even conceive of what His creation is like. For example, having trouble with math?

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Hello, I enjoyed your original post and am offering you some scripture for your personal journey. IMHO your question centers on the substitution of Jesus for God. Of course, the Christian belief is that there is a Triune God, which is called the Trinity, and is supported by scripture, which I will illustrate at the end.

Thank you; although I have to be honest and question whether you really read *them* or just skimmed through. If it was the former, than you would know I wasn't asking a question. I was telling people that godJesus is a pagan belief and not based on the Hebrew texts.

Psa 49:7-9
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

Ezek 18:20-21,27
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Deut 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Isa 45:21-23
...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me(not Jesus) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 42:8
I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Mal 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not;

If I were to believe in the god of the New Testament, then I don't believe in G.d and what He has declared in the Torah and Tanakh. No amount of "hocus pocus" can make the 3 in 1 deal fit in with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Isa 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Psa 50:16-17
But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.

Jer 31:29-30
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.


Deut 6:24-25
And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.


Isa 51:7
Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.


There is no question. G.d made it clear who I am to trust and what I am to do. It makes perfect sense.

The doctrine of Paul only makes sense from a paganistic point of view.

The Law of G.d makes sense from the heart's point of view.

Jesus the son of God and writer of the new law replacing the old.

Jesus preaching in the temple at Capernaum

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus came to fulfill the law as he said on the sermon of the mount

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. "

It was by fulfilling the old laws that Jesus could now write the new law. God himself made new covenants to replace the old with the Jewish people in the OT .

Jesus again on the sermon of the mount showing the replacing of the old law with the new covenant

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: but I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be,
Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

"When Jesus had ended these sayings, † the people were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Jesus saying that many would deny him unless called to see him for who he was by the father.

"Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God."

Jesus saying that the Jews / Muslims who did not believe him to be the Son of God will taste death by following the old Mosaic laws

"Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is
the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

"What is this then that is written? Have ye not read this Scripture: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? *

"Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

Jesus telling his apostles and disciples (devoted Jews well educated in the Torah who accepted Christ as the son of God and were willing to give their lives for same) to preach to gentiles

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem"

Jesus fulifilled scripture - brought a new covenant through his death and resurrection and said that no one can see him except as drawn to him by the father.

Therefore those who have not experienced him have not been drawn to him.

Paul was a Jew who understood the Torah and all Jewish texts as were Peter and many other devoted Jewish followers of Jesus who sacrificed their lives for him. If these knowledgeable Jews would die for him isn't that proof enough?

Why did the Jewish authorities find Jesus so dangerous if they could renounce his teaching with scripture - why want him dead?

Simple answer he was the Son of God - through him we will be brought to the Father - the one True God of which Jesus was his son.

Paul merely carried out the teaching of the Gentiles as Jesus demanded

reply to post by justamomma


Greetings,

You do have a point here.. there has been a particular reoccurring experience that I have and I shared it with a Jewish mentor. When he told me what this was, what it could mean if developed, etc. I freaked out. It is something that the prophets had perfected and so the implications of it scared me.

Been there, done that. I've read that few make it back, I don't know. It's not scary while there though.

He gave me this bit of advice and it has helped in keeping me grounded, yet open to G.d at the same time.

"Did you know that the best direction to God is horizontal? I mean, opposite to vertical? Do you remember the Golden Rule? "Don't do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." That's how we can best relate to God: Horizontally. Vertically is less than golden; perhaps silverlike. The best way to make sure of God's love is by exercising your love with your fellowman. If we prefer to straightforwardly relate to God, it becomes mysticism, and we lose sense of Reality."

The words are wise.

I am glad you said this because I was wondering how you loved G.d and had been meaning to ask you, but now that you have brought this up I don't have to ask.

G.d so often is unfathomable and so it could be questioned how can G.d be loved, except maybe as an ideal and so the second great command is "like" the first, which is to love our neighbor as our self. It is when it is understood why it is "like" the first that G.d becomes known, in my opinion.

The New Testament teachings are, to me, mainly instructing how to love your fellow man. That as this love becomes more and more pure, without damaging ego interference, G.d becomes revealed, through the Christ spirit, which might actually be the workings of YHVH-Rapha ... the one that heals us.

Like Saul, prior to becoming Paul, he was so zealous for the law that he was willing to murder and maim. After his encounter with the Christ Spirit on the road to Damascus, he came to see the spirit of the law that prior to the encounter he had only been fulfilling the letter of.

Just as Moses raised the serpent up in the desert so that all that looked upon it was healed, the spirit of Christ, when raised inside of us we also become healed.

It is in this golden, horizontal approach to G.d that I find most revealing of 'the spiritual state' in people's interactions.

You have mentioned in this thread somewhere about praying to Jesus. If you would, please take a look at this site.

www.chabad.org...

I perceive Jesus to be a tzaddik.

I do agree, however, that perceiving Jesus as God in totality is idolatry and idolatry prevents moving forward in the spiritual journey.

We are to be Jesus' equal in reflecting the fullness of the Holiness of the Spirit as he did. Until this is done, not only can the second great commandment not be fulfilled, but we also cannot "do all that he did and more", which he said we would do.

In my other thread, I had asked do you think the apostles were wrong. Do you?

I am sorry if I did not answer. I must have missed this question. This is kind of one of those double edged swords, ya know

It was in the opening post and not specifically directed. Yes, it can be a double edged sword.

When I read the New Testament, my rule of thumb for acceptance (this is not just with the NT, mind you) is based on the following verse.

Isaiah 8:20. "To the Law (Torah) and the Testimony (Prophets); if they don't speak according to this word, it's because there is no light in them."

Since there is not much known definitively about the origins of the writings in the New Testament, I can't say for sure that some of the things that are written that this verse negates is actually from them. Does that make sense? I am not ANTI the apostles, but in the NT, there are writings that are attributed to them that don't have the light... in that regard, I do not accept some of the writings.

I don't know that you have seen me write it here and there before, but there are a few things within Paul's writings that I do have a problem with.

My rule of thumb, since so much of the bible has been proven to me, is that those parts that I may not agree with or find may incline perceiving G.d to be evil are those parts that I personally have not yet been given the wisdom to understand. Or, at the same time, those parts may be the ones that have been tampered with.

So, in the meantime, rather than campaign against the bible in any way, I remain quiet on those passages preferring to keep in mind the saying: it is better to be thought a fool that to open the mouth and confirming it.

Those passages that are either tampered with or are ones I personally don't have the wisdom to understand yet, are not enough reason for me to trample upon the whole of what some might consider holy or sacred, which by the doing breaks the second great command.

As to the matter of Paul inventing a new savior. I don't think so. G.d sent Jesus. Paul points to Jesus of whom if his teachings are followed the spirit of the Torah's 613 laws are followed. Paul merely exempts Gentiles, as it has always been due to the Noahide covenant, from the need to practice the totality of the 613 laws in the Mosaic covenant because the spirit of those laws are lived.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24

This spirit transforms those who follow the literal letter of the law, which kills... from a Saul to a Paul. This spirit is also for those who never have been required to follow those literal laws.

No. Can't say I have. Guess I don't cotton to manipulation or gossip.

haha! Good for you. You should get the general point I am trying to make though, correct?

Yes, I do. Paul, perhaps, was the most outspoken for the sake of the Gentile community. Paul gets all the blame, but as I see it all the apostles actively engaged in giving the Good News to the Gentile community thereby fulfilling Israel's duty to be a priest to all the nations.

Tell me, are those who follow Eastern religions... Buddhism, Hinduism, etc exempt from God's plan? They do not follow the Torah's requirements.

The Algonquin have a Truer description of all this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jewish doctrine is more mystical than most, btw.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Not all Christians worship Jesus or believe in the Trinity. The ones that do are known as Trinitarians and the ones that don't are Unitarians (belief that Jesus was only God's prophet and Messiah, but not his son and not God himself).

Both belief systems were prominent in the early days of the Bible (when the Bible as we know it was not constructed together.) With the Council of Nicea's meeting, the Unitarian belief was made illegal and books condoning the belief system were burned. Those who carried such books were faced with the punishment of death.

Though there was much turmoil for Unitarians, there are still Unitarian Christian faiths existing today.

There is a third category, those that believe Christ is the first Angel God ever created. This angel is God's special son. To put it so you can understand it, Jesus is not God's clone, but he wants to be like his father so much he could be his clone, he has the perfect ability to mimic the way God would deal with any issue. But he is a separate distinct entity, and is second in command of the universe.

Colossians 1: 13-16

"13[The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins.
15[Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
16For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him."

Also

John 3:16 (The Message)

16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.


The trinity is a nasty false doctrine, that is in place by Satan so that millions of people unknowingly deny the ransom to their own demise, because if God=Jesus then he never actually died for our sins. It's a super sneaky way for Satan to get Christians to reject the proper way to accept the ransom of Jesus shed blood. And it has worked for centuries, only in about the last 100 years have some Christians started to reject this doctrine that is part of the apostasy Jesus predicted.

A rough guess that maybe only about 25 million Christians don't buy into it, because they have done their own research into this matter.

What did Jesus say, narrow is the way and few are the ones finding it.
And that's just one doctrine narrowing it down, there are more!

[edit on 4-1-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 4-1-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Greetings justamomma,

As I have yet to be allowed a larger number of characters due to my post count. I was not able, in my last post, to go into as much detail concerning the following as I first wished too.

In his other writings, you can see the undertones of mysticism. There is a big difference between the enlightenment of G.d and mysticism.

They are not mutually exclusive, however.

You do have a point here.. there has been a particular reoccurring experience that I have and I shared it with a Jewish mentor. When he told me what this was, what it could mean if developed, etc. I freaked out. It is something that the prophets had perfected and so the implications of it scared me.

The prophets had perfected...

Mysticism and the enlightenment of God are not mutually exclusive...

Paul had undertones of mysticism...

~~~

Connecting these, what do you see?