"Iran declares war on US"

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I do. Please show me proof that we knew their exact methods, times. and targets. Don't tell me that we had specific intell on the day, targets, etc.

There is no definite proof. Do you think they're going to leave proof just lying around? Unfortunately, you have to look at the strange events surrounding the whole thing, and think for yourself. If you come to the conclusion that everything is nice and simple, and straight forward, you're not thinking, nor doing the research. You want someone to hand you the holy grail on a silver platter? Good luck. People like you don't often get anything that way. Why don't you just write Bush and ask him? I'm sure he'll be happy to supply all the propaganda you'd apparently like to believe.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Satyr]

There is no definite proof. Do you think they're going to leave proof just lying around? Unfortunately, you have to look at the strange events surrounding the whole thing, and think for yourself. If you come to the conclusion that everything is nice and simple, and straight forward, you're not thinking, nor doing the research. You want someone to hand you the holy grail on a silver platter? Good luck. People like you don't often get anything that way. Why don't you just write Bush and ask him? I'm sure he'll be happy to supply all the propaganda you'd apparently like to believe.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Satyr]

I disagree, there is definative proof. Unfortunately it does not back up the conspiracy claims that are out there. That is why you do not see much of it here.

at any rate,

i believe in peace, the U.S'es sudden invasion on this side of the world has too many countries sweating over what's about to come next.
thankfully, russia still maintains enough shove/power to keep the U.S at bay, one hopes NATO doesnt pose too much of a threat.
at any rate, i really think iran's declaring war on the U.S is a catalyst, aimed at making sure the U.S knows that a good majority might support iran if the need may arise,
one only hopes all this occurs in a formal manner, politically perhaps?
i'm pro-slav, and i see my country already facing enough agroe' from the arabs/jews etc... a slavic patriot, go figure
Cyrus

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I disagree, there is definative proof. Unfortunately it does not back up the conspiracy claims that are out there. That is why you do not see much of it here.

Oh yeah? Where? All I see is a bunch of half truths backed by absolutely nothing. None of the suspicious aspects of any of the events have been sufficiently explained away. You're the one asking for proof. If you already have it, why don't you lay it out for us? You have proof that there's nothing funny going on here, eh? In other words, you'd rather take the propaganda campaign at face value.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Satyr]

until america decided to go there?

The middle east has been a hotbed for violence and crimes against humanity for alot longer then we've been there. Your point is well made contrary to what other American citizens on here may post. We did not have a legitimate reason for going to Iraq. Colon Powell went in front of the UN security panel and showed off about an hour of information that was as speculatory as half the garbage people on this site come out with. HOWEVER by saying that we started this war with Islam is rediculous. Muslim extremists have declared a holy war against ALL WESTERN IDEAS. This isnt to say that America is the only evil in their eyes, but we are the biggest kids on the block and so who better to start with. Somebody made this statement but i find it interesting that Spain overthrew their government and appeased the terrorists. This is pretty rediculous in and of itself. THE SPANISH PEOPLE decided they didnt want to be involved with us Americans and did what any good democracy would do... CHANGED THEIR GOVERNMENT. That my friends is how democracy works. America may be feeling our oats and throwing our weight around, but the fact of the matter is that if the extremists who are already at war with us had the weight theyd be pushing it around too. The only problem i have with you people is that what you dont understand is what Americans and French didnt understand in Vietnam. Just like the Vietnamese these middle eastern people are willing to fight forever if need be. If we want to properly deal with this threat which is in reality a threat to all free western civilizations then we need to come together and assess it as a group. America CAN NOT go around dropping nuclear weapons and invading foreign powers. To say we have been traveling down the wrong road since post-Clinton isnt really true... since post world war 2 when america decided to keep people all over the world and have a standing army is when we started down the wrong path. Since the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan.

To my fellow men in the rest of the world who are reading this... forgive America for our flaws... the path we choose is not always perfect, it is just the path we choose. Think about that in things your country has done. We are the same... just men trying to live life.

DENY IGNORANCE! The threat is to us all.... and has to be dealt with.

Fruor veritas est fruor opulentia


Forgot that i had something to say about the September 11, 2001 question. The reason that these men were not harrassed when attending flight school or when they got on an airplane was because in America we didnt do that. People have every right to learn how to fly and even to get on an airplane. The idea that there was some foul play and that my uncles lost their lives trying to save people that could have been completely avoided is unfair and like saying that a dinosaur's skin was really purple. What im saying is there is no way to know.

[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Aero]

America had 12 warnings of aircraft attack
By Rupert Cornwell

19 September 2002

American intelligence received many more clues before the 11 September attacks than previously disclosed, that terrorists might hijack planes and turn them into weapons, a joint congressional committee was told yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
concrete proof is hard to come by, the most you'll get is hints, but with these hints, one can formulate an equation, with which, you can debunk virtually all forms of propaganda available today.

point made, enough on that, the non-muslim world is labelled infidel, and therefore, one keeps in mind that islam has left us all alone for over two thousand years?

there are a billion muslims in the world today, as opposed to the 800,million or so christians, and then the numbers generally descend down to buddhism, sikhs, etc...

islam is conquering europe, which creates an interesting hypothesis, there will always be some form of "tribal unit" whether religiously fanatic, or not, that shall try to dominate.
i.e: the jewish race, 1 in every 7 people in new york's a jew?

hmm, this IS interesting, once the world topples the jewish oligarchs controlling the U.S, we are still left with over a billion muslims to deal with just in case they decide to force islam upon us all?

suddenly, religion doesnt seem such an attractive prospect now does it.
Cyrus

Originally posted by Jakomo
Iran is almost 4 times the size of Iraq, with a tough terrain involving some of the most formidable mountains and deserts in the world, far worse than what's in Iraq. The population is 3 times as large as Iraq's, and the capital, Tehran, has more than 12 million people (versus 4 million in Baghdad). The young Iranian population provides a potential fighting force of 10 million males.

And you'd better believe they'd all be fighting. They've been waiting for this since the Shah was deposed by the US.

What you forget to mention is that their weapon quality is crap, their forces poorly trained and the fact that after 10 years fighting their far smaller neighbour (your words not mine) they got the crap kicked out of them and had to sue for peace.

As for the Iranian population waiting to kick the crap out of the Yanks? The vast majority of Iranians hate their own regime more than the Iraqis hated Saddam. You always come from the viewpoint that you are speaking for the average Arab in the street but you seem to be out of touch with the thinking of the vast majority of them. You place words in the mouths of people whom you know nothing about. I've actually been to Iran, the people there want the ayatollahs gone - they might not like the Americans but to put it as clearly in black and white as you have is the same arrogance as you accuse others of. Chances are that it would be exactly the same scenario as in Iraq with only minor differences.

"Deny ignorace yo"? Where do you get off writing such crap?

Actually Cyrus, I think you are coming from a corner of a former Empire that fell under it's own corruption and failed political system. Like France and Germany, you would rather have your former nationalistic glory than face the fact that you are no longer as important and as feared as you were 20 years ago. If you ask me the only former "Empire" that has relinquished that with any grace and dignity is the United Kingdom.

Your repeated Anti-Semitic diatribes also lead me to believe that you are also sitting on some fu**ed up old-fashioned bigotry there. Now, considering how I feel about bigotry, it tends to call anything else you say into question because of your possible underlying motivation of hate based on race. It's one thing to hate based religion, or idealology, because there is always the hope that the individual you hate can change his mind. However, no one can change their race, so hate on this basis has no reason behind it except hate for hate's sake. I think that is backward and wrong.

In that vein, let me state that I don't hate Arabs, but I am starting to hate Islam a good bit. I hope you understand the difference.

Originally posted by LevellerAs for the Iranian population waiting to kick the crap out of the Yanks? The vast majority of Iranians hate their own regime more than the Iraqis hated Saddam.

If you take out the leaders of Iran, the Iranians will fight the US even if they hated the government of Iran.

Can't you see what's happening right now in Iraq?

You kill one leader another 5 or 6 pop up to take their place.
Some of them may turn out to be worse than Saddam.

Leveller: "What you forget to mention is that their weapon quality is crap, their forces poorly trained and the fact that after 10 years fighting their far smaller neighbour (your words not mine) they got the crap kicked out of them and had to sue for peace. ""

Hey if you actually bothered to read any previous posts in this thread, I said that the Iranian Army was not a 3rd world army like Iraqi had before the latest invasion. Iraq had NO Air Force, no navy, and a ragtag bunch of army regulars.

To invade Iran would be 100 times more difficult than Iraq, which was under crippling sanctions for 12 years and had a completely sub-par military.

And given the current circumstances, with US troops deployed all over the world, the USA would LOSE against Iran. They'd be facing enemies on all fronts.

The U.S. has yet to fight a foe that is even minimally comparable to their military strength, other than WWII, and at that time, you had the rest of the world's help, pretty much.

So get a grip on reality.

Why cant the other Arab countries help out? Saddam was a mad man and they looked the other way. The cant be so dogmatic by their religious ideals that they cant see how anti-everything these regimes are.

Those people are jealous of the USA because we live like kings, i mean obesity is a problem here while poverty is killing them over there. We cant help being the best country ever and they should not hate us for it.

Iran and the US havent been on good terms for a long time and have never been allies. If they start stuff with is we will finish them. Iran has a repressive government and woman have little if any rights. Its not like we are adding territoryto the US, we are changing their government and let the native people decide what they want.

Another attack on us will piss off many and many Americans will volunteer to fight off terrorists and regimes that preach hatred of America.

These oil rich countries under a productive government could flurish.

Cyrus, I cannot STAND your claims that all the problems in the Middle East are due to America! That is so beyond.....just ANY kind of common sense! Seriously man, what the hell? That's fine if you really think that, but if you do, then I'm concerned about you.

There are so many tribes, sects, divisions, groups, enemies and allies, religious affiliations, cultural affiliations, national affiliations etc. WITHIN the region and they all war amongst each other! I can't believe you don't see that. To blame everything on America is just ignorant! You may think the invasion of Iraq was ill-timed or planned, and you know what, I'm not even arguing against you on that. But how can you think we ruined the ME? It's laughable.

Also, your concerns about us westernizing all nations: excuse me............HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHU!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, so what are you claiming? Do we shove McDonalds down their throats like a mom does to her baby? Do we force our evil music and movies on them? Do we require of all Arabs a quota that they have to be a certain amount westernized? HA! Ignorance!

Do you even KNOW what western ideals are? It's called a FREE-MARKET ECONOMY or CAPITALISM. Key words: FREE-MARKET.......emphasis on FREE!!!!!!! LOL! Even if we were IMPOSING on them so horribly, they don't HAVE to do ANYTHING related to western culture, because by DEFINITION, western culture promotes freedom for whoever to do whatever they want! In other words, Arabs don't have to touch one happy meal you ignoramus!

So what can you deduct from what's happening? Oh, maybe that some Muslims WANT western trends! Do you know what supply and demand is? If no one in that region WANTED any western music, media, food, clothes, etc. no one would BUY any of it. Therefore, it would GO OUT OF BUSINESS, meaning IT WOULDN'T BE THERE! So BECAUSE western ideals pop up there is testament to the fact that there are actually people who LIKE it! The GOVERNMENTS don't like it because their people taking to western trends means TROUBLE FOR THEIR GREEDY POWER!! That's where the conflict comes in.

How is America wrong for simply displaying her ideals? It's up to everyone on who WANTS them. It's like advertising. We show what we have, and they can take if they want! So if you have trouble with these facts, why don't you join some group of suicide bombers or something to actually put some action into those words you're farting out.

If you already have it, why don't you lay it out for us? You have proof that there's nothing funny going on here, eh? In other words, you'd rather take the propaganda campaign at face value.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Satyr]

Because I will not post classified information on this, or any other, site that is not secure. When the documents are released to the public you will be able to see that information for yourselves.

I can say this, there was nothing funny going on that day. The fact that you can joke about it shows that you have little regard for the loss of life.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Actually Cyrus, I think you are coming from a corner of a former Empire that fell under it's own corruption and failed political system. Like France and Germany, you would rather have your former nationalistic glory than face the fact that you are no longer as important and as feared as you were 20 years ago. If you ask me the only former "Empire" that has relinquished that with any grace and dignity is the United Kingdom.

Your repeated Anti-Semitic diatribes also lead me to believe that you are also sitting on some fu**ed up old-fashioned bigotry there. Now, considering how I feel about bigotry, it tends to call anything else you say into question because of your possible underlying motivation of hate based on race. It's one thing to hate based religion, or idealology, because there is always the hope that the individual you hate can change his mind. However, no one can change their race, so hate on this basis has no reason behind it except hate for hate's sake. I think that is backward and wrong.

In that vein, let me state that I don't hate Arabs, but I am starting to hate Islam a good bit. I hope you understand the difference.

Juden!! Juden!! Halt!!

who said i had anything against a race?? idiot.

i only have a problem with the jewish oligarchs.(namely...i could name 10 out of the 12 senators for the united states as jewish) see? moron

as for my having a problem with a race, well...yes, i do have a problem with the american race simply because they would rather aid other countries into complete ruin that spend a dime in any justifiable way that would remotely signify the word "aid".

those trillions could have been spent making the world better. idiot.

as for supporting the jewish oligarchs, well, there's a reason why so many of them were kept far from the cities, even in the ukraine? a bit like gypsies, only, since i'm white, i suppose i am automatically labelled racist? perhaps i am..only i still dont know it?
*sigh*
you MORON!! try and come up with a suitable outlet for your anger, instead of labelling me racist, i am a perfectionist, and i like to keep my arguments up to scratch, you're a jew? do i care if you hate islam

in fact, let me put it this way...i support islam as long as the U.S stops battering our side of the pond, but the minute that's done i'll turn on the muslims since they're bound to eradicate all of us (lil bastards).