ABC says conspiracy web sites are contributing to mental health issues

Then Cox should have further went into other areas not just conspiracy sites.

reply to post by Yoda411


No offense taken, it's become a family joke. It's happened at least three times

Apparently the cops are used to it too.

The nursing staff are getting there, I think.

But the thing is he didn't need to read anything to act on that delusion. And as funny as it is, it could have had disastrous consequences – suppose he were a little more mobile than he is, and decided to sneak out of the hospital rather than dial 911?

But conspiracy websites were not involved in either case. People with delusions have delusions.

reply to post by americandingbat

The biggest difference between the ABC article and a thread at ATS is its presentation to the public as a news piece, and the presumption the news media expects from the public that they are authorities on what is true.

repeated this -

just in case anyone missed it the first time

[edit on 12/15/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by americandingbat


Right, but the question that still hangs in this thread is whether or not reading false material could potentially contribute to a mental illness.

Let's pretend your grandfather is younger in the same situation and surfed the web while in the hospital and found the article where the nurses are all reptilians on ATS, and the scenario described previously is applied.

Would you argue that this fact-less concept could potentially further skew his perception of reality? Potentially even permanently embedding the idea that his nurses are reptilians?

About a month before the ABC article appeared, the NY Times published an article about essentially the same topic. Here is an article that talks about the issue that the NY Times published. (The actual article from the NY Times, requires registration, and I won't register at News sites.) Here is the article:
www.iht.com...

Identified by some psychologists and psychiatrists as part of an "extreme community" on the Internet that appears to encourage delusional thinking, a growing number of such Web sites are filled with stories from people who say they are victims of mind control and stalking by gangs of government agents. The sites are drawing the concern of mental health professionals and the interest of researchers in psychology and psychiatry.

Although many Internet groups that offer peer support are considered helpful to the mentally ill, some experts say Web sites that amplify reports of mind control and group stalking represent a dark side of social networking. They may reinforce the troubled thinking of the mentally ill and impede treatment.

Dr. Ralph Hoffman, a psychiatry professor at Yale who studies delusions, said a growing number of his research subjects have told him of visiting mind-control sites, and finding in them confirmation of their own experiences.

"The views of these belief systems are like a shark that has to be constantly fed," Dr. Hoffman said. "If you don't feed the delusion, sooner or later it will die out or diminish on its own accord. The key thing is that it needs to be repetitively reinforced."

That is what the Web sites do, he said. Similar concerns have arisen about a proliferation of sites that describe how to commit suicide, or others that promote anorexia and bulimia, providing detailed instructions on restricting food and photographs of skeletal women meant to be "thinspiration."

For people who regularly visit and write on message boards on the mind-control sites, the idea that others would describe the sites as promoting delusional and psychotic thinking is simply evidence of a cover-up of the truth.

"It was a big relief to find the community," said Derrick Robinson, 55, a janitor in Cincinnati and president of Freedom from Covert Harassment and Surveillance, a group that claims several hundred regular users of its Web site. "I felt that maybe there were others, but I wasn't real sure until I did find this community," Robinson said.

There is no concise survey of mind-control sites or others describing gang stalking — whose users believe that groups of people are following and controlling them, as part of a test of neurological or other kinds of weapons likely conducted by the government — on the Net. But they are easy to find. Some have hundreds of postings, along with links to dozers of similar sties. One, Gangstalkingworld.com, welcomes visitors with this description: "Gang Stalking is a systemic form of control, which seeks to destroy every aspect of a Targeted Individual's life. The target is followed around and placed under surveillance by Civilian Spies/Snitches 24/7."

The site lists more than 71,000 visitors, and it has links to several other sites, including Harrassment101.com, which has 965 posts.

One poster to Gang Stalking World wrote in August: "It's insane that I daily have to come home and try to figure out if my Web sites will still be up or shut down. This week they have really been playing with me, and so it was my time to play back." The post directs readers to other gang-stalking sites should their favorite sites be shut down.

Robinson said in an interview that that he has been tortured and abused by gang stalkers and by "neurological weaponry" since leaving the Navy in 1982. "To read the stories and the similarity of the harassment techniques that were going on, to hear about the vandalism, appliance tampering and all the other things were designed to drive a person crazy, who do you go to with this?" he said. "People will say you are delusional."


.....

Vaughan Bell, a British psychologist who has researched the effect of the Internet on mental illness, first began tracking sites with reports of mind control in 2004. In 2006 he published a study concluding that there was an extensive Internet community around such beliefs, and he called 10 sites he studied "likely psychotic sites."

The extent of the community, Dr. Bell said, poses a paradox to the traditional way delusion is defined under the diagnostic guidelines of the American Psychiatric Association, which says that if a belief is held by a person's "culture or subculture," it is not a delusion. The exception accounts for rituals of religious faith, for example.

Dr. Bell, whose study was published in the journal Psychopathology, said that it does not suggest all people participating in mind-control sites are delusional, and that a firm diagnosis of psychosis could only be done in person.

For people who say they are the target of mind control or gang stalking, there may be enough evidence in the scientific literature to fan their beliefs. Many sites point to MK-ULTRA, the code name for a covert CIA mind-control and chemical interrogation program begun in the 1950s.

Recently the sites have linked to an article published in September in Time magazine, "The Army's Totally Serious Mind-Control Project," which described a $4 million contract given to the Army to develop "thought helmets" that would allow troops to communicate through brain waves on the battlefield.

And the users of some sites have found the support of Jim Guest, a Republican state representative in Missouri, who wrote last year to his fellow legislators calling for an investigation into the claims of those who say they are being tortured by mind control.

"I've had enough calls, some from credible people — professors — being targeted by nonlethal weapons," Guest said in a telephone interview, adding that nothing came of his request for a legislative investigation. "They become psychologically affected by it. They have trouble sleeping at night."

He added: "I believe there are people who have been targeted by this. With this equipment, you have to test it on somebody to see if it works."

Dr. Bell and some other mental health professionals say that even if the users of such sites are psychotic, forging an online connection to others and being told — perhaps for the first time — "you are not crazy" could actually have a positive effect on their illnesses.

"We know, for example, that things like social support, all of these positive social aspects are very good for people's mental illness," Dr. Bell said. "I wouldn't say it's entirely and completely positive, but it can be positive."

Some research has shown that when people with delusions undergo group cognitive therapy, the group process can be helpful in their treatment.

But the Web sites are not moderated by professionals, and many postings discuss the failure of medication and say that mental health professionals are part of the conspiracy against them.

"These people lead quietly desperate lives," said Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman, chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University. "And if they are reinforcing each other and pulling people toward something, if they are using the Internet and getting reinforcement, that's good."

The mind-control sites remind some experts of the accounts of those claiming to have been abducted by aliens in the 1970s and '80s. One person's story begat another until many insisted they had had virtually identical experiences of being taken onto space ships by silvery sloe-eyed creatures.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Vaughan Bell, a British psychologist who has researched the effect of the Internet on mental illness, first began tracking sites with reports of mind control in 2004. In 2006 he published a study concluding that there was an extensive Internet community around such beliefs, and he called 10 sites he studied "likely psychotic sites."

So he actually witnessed that there was a large community of people frequenting these websites and then decides to conclude then the they are "likely psychotic sites."

Anyone know this guy? That is about as unscientific as you can get right there. Is he the resident psychologist for Weekly World News?

Originally posted by Yoda411

Maybe they are asking you specifically lightangelo, "What's Behind Internet Conspiracy Empires?". Surely Lauren Cox does not participate in this online discussion, nor do the two interviewed psychologists. They merely opened the door for discussion surrounding the topic. Many articles in Scientific American raise thousands more questions than they answer. Unfortunately, that is the way science often works.

Are we talking about science or the news here? Nice shifting of goal posts but this is not a scientific journal. This is news which has a certain standard. Ever been to journalism school? I suggest you go. I did not say anyone was asking me specifically. What is that about? Who cares if they participate? What are you talking about? The news is not supposed to pose questions. Journalists pose questions and find answers. The news reports those answers. That is what it is. Please do not try and change the rules to fit the way you want it to go.

Originally posted by Yoda411
reply to post by angel of lightangelo

 

This is undoubtedly the second time I had to grab this quote for you specifically. Write it down.

undoubtedly, and what is it supposed to be a response to exactly?

Are you trying to explain what positive therapy is and what factually quoted means? This is what I am questioning. What exactly is positive therapy and what does it mean in that sentence? What does factually quoted mean? Have you been unfactually quoting people too?


[edit on 15-12-2008 by angel of lightangelo]

Here is another way to present this debate.

Have you ever seen a post from someone who is new to the forums, and posts a new thread in support of a theory they have just recently been exposed to and believe, and whom appears to posses either of the following two attributes?

de⋅lu⋅sion
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

par⋅a⋅noi⋅a
1. Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.

sys·tem·a·tized delusion (sst-m-tzd)
Any of various delusions that are logically founded upon false premises and form part of an organized group of related delusions.

God knows I have seen plenty of them. I would imagine they all gained their newly found ideals from this website before posting.

Edit: Added systematized delusion definition.

[edit on 12/15/08 by Yoda411]

Originally posted by Yoda411
Would you argue that this fact-less concept could potentially further skew his perception of reality? Potentially even permanently embedding the idea that his nurses are reptilians?

By this reasoning we should ban all works of fiction. After all a mentally unstable person could read/watch it and think it is true.

Vas

Originally posted by Yoda411
Here is another way to present this debate.

Already told you dictionary.com is not a credible source on psychiatry. Please state where in the DSM paranoia is listed as it's own illness.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo
So he actually witnessed that there was a large community of people frequenting these websites and then decides to conclude then the they are "likely psychotic sites."

Anyone know this guy? That is about as unscientific as you can get right there. Is he the resident psychologist for Weekly World News?

The International Herald Tribune analysis of Dr. Bell's article is not very good.

I provided a link to the actual article from Psychopathology a page or two ago.

Note that one thing Dr. Bell says that they actually do bother to get right is:

"Dr. Bell and some other mental health professionals say that even if the users of such sites are psychotic, forging an online connection to others and being told — perhaps for the first time — "you are not crazy" could actually have a positive effect on their illnesses.

"We know, for example, that things like social support, all of these positive social aspects are very good for people's mental illness," Dr. Bell said. "I wouldn't say it's entirely and completely positive, but it can be positive."

He goes on in this and other articles to discuss how delusions that have been built in internet sites are often especially treatable, and how therapists can use the patients' internet savvy in the treatment.


(editing in external source tags - source is International Herald Tribune article posted by ProfEmeritus above)

[edit on 12/15/08 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth

Originally posted by Yoda411
Would you argue that this fact-less concept could potentially further skew his perception of reality? Potentially even permanently embedding the idea that his nurses are reptilians?

By this reasoning we should ban all works of fiction. After all a mentally unstable person could read/watch it and think it is true.

Vas

Ah, but the difference is fiction is rightfully labeled fiction where as on a website you have to determine the credibility yourself through research and fact checking. Not everyone is mentally fit for this.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo

Originally posted by Yoda411
Here is another way to present this debate.

Already told you dictionary.com is not a credible source on psychiatry. Please state where in the DSM paranoia is listed as it's own illness.

If you are going to attempt to debate the dictionary, save it for another ignorant thread.

reply to post by angel of lightangelo

You know, maybe you should go to the posted link and actually read the entire link before posting questions. However, since it is obvious that you don't wish to do any research, let me do your homework for you. Here is is biography, which you won't go do, so I'll also post the pertinent information:
www.iop.kcl.ac.uk...

Dr Vaughan Bell BSc (Hons) MSc CertHE PhD DClinPsy
I am a clinical and research psychologist interested in understanding brain injury, mental distress and psychological impairment. I’m currently at the Departmento de Psiquiatría in the Universidad de Antioquia and the Hospital Universitario San Vicente de Paúl, in Medellín, Colombia, where I’m a visiting professor. I’m also a visiting research fellow at the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at the Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London.
activities and interests

My research interests focus on three main areas:
# The cognitive neuropsychiatry of psychosis, delusions and belief formation.
# Neuropsychology of suggestion and dissociative disorders.
# Brain injury and neuropsychological assessment.

Academic writing

Bell, V. & Halligan, P.W. (in press) The Neural Basis of Abnormal Personal Belief. In F. Kruger and J. Grafman (eds) The Neural Basis of Human Belief Systems. Hove: Psychology Press. [email me]

Bell, V. & Halligan, P.W. (in press) Cognitive Neurology. In G.G. Berntson and J.T. Cacioppo (eds) Handbook of Neuroscience for the Behavioral Sciences [email me]

Bell, V. (in press) The Internet and Clinical Neuropsychology: Privacy, Personal Safety and Effective Internet Use. In J. Gurd, U. Kischka, J. Marshall (eds) Handbook of Clinical Neuropsychology (2nd ed) [email me]

Rees, J., McKenna, P., Bell, V., Skucek, E., Nichols, E. & Fisher, P. (2008) The Rookwood Driving Battery: normative older adult performance. British Journal of Clinical Psychology, 47 (2), 139-151. [email me]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2008) Are anomalous perceptual experiences necessary for delusions? Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 196 (1), 3-8. NB: Publisher’s erratum in Volume 196(3), March 2008, p 262. Full correct version here: [pdf]

Bell, V. (2007) Online information, extreme communities and internet therapy: Is the internet good for our mental health? Journal of Mental Health, 16 (4), 445-457. [pdf]

Grueter, M., Grueter, T., Bell, V., Horst, J., Laskowski, W., Sperling, K., Halligan, P.W., Ellis, H.D. & Kennerknecht, I. (2007) Hereditary prosopagnosia: The first case series. Cortex, 43, 734-749. [pdf]

Bell, V., Reddy, V., Halligan, P.W., Kirov, G., Ellis, H.D. (2007) Relative suppression of magical thinking: A transcranial magnetic stimulation study. Cortex, 43, 551-557. [pdf]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2007) The Psychosis Continuum and the Cardiff Anomalous Perceptions Scale (CAPS): Are There Multiple Factors Underlying Anomalous Experience? European Psychiatry, 22, Suppl 1, S47. Published abstract. [pdf]

McKenna, P., Bell, V. (2007) Fitness to drive following cerebral pathology: The Rookwood Driving Battery as a tool for predicting on-road driving performance. Journal of Neuropsychology, 1, 85-100. [pdf]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2006) Diagnosing delusions: A review of inter-rater reliability. Schizophrenia Research, 86 (1-3), 76-9. [pdf]

Bell, V. (2006) Through A Scanner Darkly: Neuropsychology and psychosis in Philip K. Dick’s novel "A Scanner Darkly". The Psychologist, 19 (8), 488-489. [pdf]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2006) Explaining delusions: A cognitive perspective. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 10 (5), 219-226. [pdf]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2006) The Cardiff Anomalous Perceptions Scale (CAPS): A new validated measure of anomalous perceptual experience. Schizophrenia Bulletin, 32 (2), 366-77. [paper] [scale].

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2006) A Cognitive Neuroscience of Belief. In P.W. Halligan & M. Aylward (eds) The Power of Belief: Psychosocial Influences on Illness, Disability and Medicine. Oxford: Oxford University Press. [pdf]

Bell, V., Maiden, C., Muñoz-Solomando, A. & Reddy, V. (2006) "Mind control experiences" on the internet: Implications for the psychiatric diagnosis of delusions. Psychopathology, 39, 87-91. [pdf]

McKenna, P., Rees, J., Skucek, E., Nichols, E., Fisher, P., Bayer, T. & Bell, V. (2005) The Rookwood Driving Battery and the older adult. In Traffic and Transport Psychology. London: Elsevier. [email me]

Bell, V., Grech, E., Maiden, C., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H.D. (2005) "Internet delusions": A case series and theoretical integration. Psychopathology, 38, 144-150. [pdf]

Bell, V., Lloyd-Wright, Z, Møller, J., Hvas, A., Nexø, E., Sanders, T.A.B. (2005) Cognitive performance in vitamin B12 deficient vegan men with intermediate hyperhomocysteinaemia. Haematologica Reports, 1 (3), 4. Published abstract. [pdf]

Bell, V. (2004) Book review: From the Edge of the Couch: Bizarre psychiatric cases and what they teach us about ourselves by R. Persaud. Cognitive Neuropsychiatry, 9, 315-318. [pdf]

Bell, V. (2004) Mind control experiences on the internet and the psychiatric diagnosis of delusions. Proceedings of the British Psychological Society, 12 (2), 162. Published abstract. [pdf]

Bell, V. & Halligan, P. (2004) Book review: Neuropsychological Interventions: Clinical Research and Practice, edited by Paul J. Eslinger. Brain, 127 (1), 237-238. [pdf]

Bell, V., Ellis, H. & Halligan, P. (2003) Neuropsychology, delusions and modularity: The curious problem of belief. Proceedings of the British Psychological Society, 11 (2), 174. Published abstract. [pdf]

Bell, V., (2003) Book review: Imagination and its Pathologies. Edited by J. Phillips and J.Morley. Human Nature Review, 3, 363-365. [pdf]

Bell, V., Halligan, P.W. & Ellis, H. (2003) Beliefs about delusions. The Psychologist, 16(8), 418-423. [pdf]

Bell, V. (2003) The internet and clinical neuropsychology. In P. Halligan, U. Kischka and J.C. Marshall (eds) Handbook of Clinical Neuropsychology. Oxford: Oxford University Press. [pdf]

Bell, V. (2002) Book review: Pathologies of Belief by M. Coltheart & M. Davies. Cognitive Neuropsychiatry, 7 (4), 329-333. [pdf]

Bell, V. & Ward, J. (2001, July) Does semantic and episodic memory make equal contributions to learning in memory impaired patients ? Poster session presented at International Conference on Memory 3, Valencia, Spain.

The man is an extremely respected psychologist who has studied and written an extensive list of research papers, SOME of which I have posted above. In fact, he has probably done more research on this subject than anyone in the world.

reply to post by americandingbat


Indeed the same exact concept was mentioned in the ABC article which I have posted several times, but has been constantly overlooked to my annoyance. You may have read it, but it sounds like you have not.

For the healthy in mind, MacDonald said, "it's a wild card about whether this is going to improve people's state or not. It may turn out that the value of the community is greater than the destructive nature of the narratives that are spun out of them.

Originally posted by Yoda411

Let's pretend your grandfather is younger in the same situation and surfed the web while in the hospital and found the article where the nurses are all reptilians on ATS, and the scenario described previously is applied.

Would you argue that this fact-less concept could potentially further skew his perception of reality? Potentially even permanently embedding the idea that his nurses are reptilians?

Sorry, I missed this post at first.

I would say I have no idea.

Because my grandfather's delusions are directly linked to the use of opiates, and go away as soon as they can switch him to different pain meds, I would say no it is not likely that reading something would cause them to become permanent.

But that's not really what you're after, and all I can say is that we would be speculating to say that it would.

It seems much more likely to me that he would have his delusions of nursing staff conspiracy strengthened by watching a story on TV about real-life nurses who kill (and I did once see just such a show, I think on Discovery).

And we're way far away from what I think matters again – why is this in the news?

If you're going to do an article on how David Icke makes the mentally ill believe that evil Reptilians run the world, then talk about David Icke, not "Internet Conspiracy Empires".

If you're going to do an article on conspiracy theory online, do your research and present it in a fair and balanced manner.

Originally posted by Yoda411
reply to post by americandingbat

 

Indeed the same exact concept was mentioned in the ABC article which I have posted several times, but has been constantly overlooked to my annoyance. You may have read it, but it sounds like you have not.

For the healthy in mind, MacDonald said, "it's a wild card about whether this is going to improve people's state or not. It may turn out that the value of the community is greater than the destructive nature of the narratives that are spun out of them.

Indeed I read and replied. I have now bolded the pertinent part.

This quote refers to people like us, who are presumable healthy in mind (making no assumptions about Spiramirabilis' mental health ).

And what it says is that he doesn't know whether it might be beneficial for people like us to come here, because it provides community despite the "destructive nature of the narratives."

Nothing about the possibility that an online community of people who will listen and share a delusion could be beneficial in the long run for the mentally ill, which is what Dr. Bell has admitted.

Originally posted by americandingbat
Nothing about the possibility that an online community of people who will listen and share a delusion could be beneficial in the long run for the mentally ill, which is what Dr. Bell has admitted.

Indeed. An extremely relevant and important point to be made.

I want to make sure my stance is known that to mentally healthy people this site can do no harm. I do stand strong however that a mentally ill individual could most definitely be further demented through false facts passed off as reality.

It's important to consider that everybody's mind works, and thinks, differently. While it is easy for some of us to shrug off a reptilian overlord society, others have experienced loss of sleep over the thought. I am actually very glad that we do not have an example of a previously mentally ill individual being worsened by ATS, because if there was true proof of that then I think even they could spell lawsuit.

reply to post by Yoda411


But the bit you keep citing says that we (the healthy) might be damaged.

And the bit that you quoted from me was saying that there is a possibility (according to Dr. Bell, who as ProfEmeritus points out seems to be the most widely-published researcher in this area among scholarly journals) that the mentally ill will be helped.

ABC expert: mentally ill people will be harmed, healthy may be harmed.

Dr. Bell: says nothing about the healthy, that's not his gig. Says that the support of a community that does not dismiss the delusion immediately may in fact be a positive influence contributing to the improvement of the mentally ill individual.

I know that you've got like four different arguments going on with all of us coming at you from slightly different perspectives. I just want to make sure that I get my point across clearly for anyone else reading the thread.