Im Sick of and Im Fed Up of Unions Being Blamed For Auto Bailout Breakdown!!!!

It is truly gratifying to hear from small business owners such as hinky and dooper, who live with the challenges of business life on a day-to-day basis and can give real life examples of how things work in the real world. If there are union workers out there reading this thread, I encourage you to take heed of what these folks are saying.

I don't think anyone is saying that labor is the entire problem; of course they're not. But it's time for the UAW to realize this is not the 60's anymore, and as technology and energy demands evolve, so must their role in the process. I don't want to see any hard worker lose his job, but at the same time I don't want to see them exploiting the system.

My dad was a steelworker, and after a certain amount of seniority, he got 13 weeks of vacation. 13 weeks! And the stories he would tell me - every worker needed a "helper", etc. It's no wonder that area of the country is now known as the "Rust Belt".

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by stander

 

Here is the link you posted that I responded to:

blogs.moneycentral.msn.com...

IT IS A BLOG! You posted the OPINION of a person named Kim Peterson.

Do auto workers really earn $73 an hour?
Posted Dec 11 2008, 06:56 AM by Kim Peterson
Rating: [Poor] [Poor] [Fair] [Fair] [Average] [Average] [Good] [Good] [Excellent] [Excellent]
Filed under: Ford, Honda, Toyota, GM, Kim Peterson

The New York Times debunks the claim that the Big Three auto workers earn $73 an hour. That number came from the car companies themselves during union negotiations, writes David Leonhardt.

But it isn't completely accurate. Yes, the companies do spend about $73 for every hour of unionized work, Leonhardt writes. Not all of that goes to the worker's pocket.

If you wanted to source the NY Times, you SHOULD HAVE LISTED THAT LINK. Just because a blogger says that a reputable source said something, does not make it true. That is WHY ATS has standards. All you need to do is follow the standards.
I won't stoop to your level and call you names.
There is no need for name calling. You are quite rude.

I see that that your ignorance grows like mushroom after summertime showers . . .

1) Kim Peterson is one of the contributors
articles.moneycentral.msn.com...
to the MSN Money section, and in her article she quoted David Leonhardt from NY Times, not herself, as you can read above. MSN doesn't publish articles of dubious origin, but you can always cross-reference. That's just a few mouse clicks away.

What I posted actually sparked a debate here:
www.nabble.com...:-Do-auto-workers-really-earn-$73-or-$103-hr.--td20964335.html

2) If there was anything factual about how much GM workers earn, there would not be a widespread doubt about it:
www.examiner.com...
blogs.payscale.com...
mediamatters.org...
wiki.answers.com...

These people who slam union workers as being overpaid and lazy are complete morons without a clue.

Union workers out produce non-union workers. The junk cars being made are made down in Mexico by non union workers. In addition, all you people working non-union jobs get a boost by the existance of Unions in the U.S.. If corporations had their way, we would all be earning the same wages as they earn down in Mexico, a few dollars a day. You people are so stupid you bite the hand that feeds you.

Auto workers in Japan, Korea, and Europe make more than their U.S. counterparts, even though we are more productive. How is that fair. Oh, but executives in Japan, Korea, and Europe make far less than our execs, so where is the real problem? In addition, those countries subsidize their industries, fix trade in their favor, and dump into our markets, which our corporations completely support because they export our jobs to keep bumping up the rip off exec salaries.

People who go to college don't work harder than people who get jobs or go into the service after high school. Where would anyone gets such a ridiculous idea? Talk about being a programmed sheople. It is a heck of a lot more trouble and has a heck of a lot more disipline to make it in the military than in college, especially when mom and dad are paying the bills. Most people who earn the good money in Unions took apprenticeship programs for several years, often it is a 5 year deal, going to school while working, and are more skilled than the average college grad.

If you knew anything about manufacturing or R&D you would know that it is the skilled tradesmen that make everything happen. Most engineers managed to pass their tests and get their degree, but most never really understood what the courses were about. The same is also true in the trades, but in the trades, you have to actually work in the process, so it gives you a much better understanding of what is going on. Some people are good on paper, and worthless in the real world, while some people are terrible on paper, but brilliant craftsmen. Your top people get it, the top engineers and the top tradesmen, and they are the ones who really make things happen. The rest do what they know, and ask questions when they don't know what to do.

The corporate executives are nothing but grossly overpaid politicians. Not a one of them is worth more than what the POTUS makes annually. They don't work, they sit around and talk about their big plans, that if you pay attention, never work out, and even when they do, it is not the execs who make it happen but the top engineers and the top tradesmen.

They want to pay the people in the office working on their computers in a nice quiet, clean, SAFE, environomentally controlled atmosphere more than what the people out working the the factory make, and that is the real scam. People who work in manufacturing work dirty, dangerous jobs that require a high level of consistency and attention, or there are immediate and serious consequences. What people in the office do rarely has any consequence if they screw up. If they screw up, maybe some data dissappears for awhile to frustrate the bean counters, but the production line isn't stopped, some million dollar machine isn't serious damaged, or someone isn't seriously hurt or killed. This is the reality.

Ah, but the morons blah blah blah about how great the overpaid execs are. It is amazing how ignorant some people can be.

Originally posted by poet1b
These people who slam union workers as being overpaid and lazy are complete morons without a clue.

Union workers out produce non-union workers. The junk cars being made are made down in Mexico by non union workers.

If you blame Mexican non-union workers and their poor workmanship for GM cars being junk, how come that the German Parliament isn't busy with the question whether to bail out Wolkswagen AG that has assembly plants in Mexico to supply the America market?

Don't think too hard about it. Just come up with another piece of crap.


[edit on 12/14/2008 by stander]

reply to post by stander


This took my about two seconds to realize that answer, er, not that long.

Volkswagen doesn't have to pay phenomenally growing healthcare costs for their retirees. Not to mention Volkswagen doesn't pay its executives obscenely large amounts of money. Besides the fact that Europe actively protects its automakers.

By the way, most Volkswagen works are Union workers. If Volkswagen can make it without unions having to make concessions, then why can't U.S. automakers?

Oh, lets do some research. I know that Volkswagon and Toyota, and the rest are having to rent extra space to store their cars that are stockpiling up at our ports.

www.reuters.com...

"Our situation is not pleasing but it is not radically bad," Martin Winterkorn told the German newspaper in an interview to be published on Monday.

But unlike competitors including Daimler (DAIGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and BMW (BMWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), Winterkorn said Volkswagen had no plans to shorten working hours at its factories.

I have to ask, are you saying that Europes more regulated economy might be superior to the current de-regulated U.S. economy? That injecttions of socialism might be better than backstab style capitalism, er the free market?

I think we should adopt some European concepts, like shorter work weeks and more vacation time. That is what we really should be doing. Instead of layoffs, we shorten worker's hours. That would be better way of doing things.

you union workers and you toys. I make 13 and pay child support. And I can still afford all my stuff and i smoke a pack a day. It is not how much you make but how you spend it. Oh yeah i have two cars 5 acres to call my home. Don't bitch about what you cannot control. Your intelligence is the only thing in life you have control over. No use complaining about the things you cannot control. And yes it is the unions fault for not wanting to make any sacrifices but the little man and middle man do all the time. If you wants something done then riot that usually works if done right the first time.



"I think we should adopt some European concepts, like shorter work weeks and more vacation time. That is what we really should be doing. Instead of layoffs, we shorten worker's hours. That would be better way of doing things."

JUST what the hell kind of intelligent thought is that. It does not make any sense what so ever!!!!!!!

[edit on 12/18/2008 by CrashGecko]

I am in the IT field and roughly turn about 28 - 30 k, my mouth DROPPED when I found out auto workers make 40 - 50k and with ALL those benifits. I have seen now the process of making a car, and I am sorry to say but screwing in a bolt, checking a welding job (that a machine did) or swepping the floor isnt worth 50k a year.

I say TRIM THE fat and the fat are these bloated union rates. Also CEO's and upper exec shouldn't make more that 8X the highest paid worker. Would you work for 32k or 0k. That is what it boils down to, work for this or find another job.

Now these numbers are all dependant upon Price of Living in your area i.e. California 32k isnt worth crap, but in Memphis, TN 32k is somewhat good pay for no College ed

reply to post by Mr.Fletcher


please people stop speaking ont hings you know nothing about. please read the whole threads before statings things that were already addressed.

and yes janitorial IS outsourced and they DO NOT make 40-50k /year

I didn't read every post in this thread, but I'll say again like I said in another. The management AND the union is at fault. The management for being short sighted, poor marketers, and poor quality cars for many years. The union for being greedy. It's that simple.

Sure, US cars are much higher quality now than they used to be, but why? It's because the Japanese, and Europeans forced them to become better. If it were not for them, the world would still be driving the same junk that came off the assembly lines in the 70's and 80's before Detroit figured it out. Which of course is not the union's fault, they build to the plans just like any other manufacturer does. But you cannot deny it. They have gotten greedy. On average, the people who build our nuclear aircraft carriers and submarines do not make as much in wages and benies as the average UAW worker. Their jobs are much more dangerous and technically difficult in most respects than anything done on an assembly line in Detroit. So I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for the plight of the UAW and the bum wrap they are taking.

Their quality has gotten much better. I own a Dodge and a GM import (Holden) from Australia . Both are comparable in quality. I would have no issue buying either brand again.

Originally posted by keeff
reply to post by Mr.Fletcher

 

and yes janitorial IS outsourced and they DO NOT make 40-50k /year

One of my best friends and my brother both work for Chrysler and they don't outsource janitors. No they don't make 40-50k, more like 50-60k a year.

The biggest issue to me is as I compare my job to theirs for example, I program my own machine, I set-up the machine, I run the parts, I inspect the parts, and I deburr and finalize the parts. The same parts at a union shop is programmed by one guy, set-up by another guy, ran by still another guy, inspected by another, and deburred and finalized by yet another. I do the work of 5 union employees. Tell me what is wrong with that picture.

And as I stated in another thread close to this subject.
"Unions make a good man lazy, and a lazy man worthless. Skilled guys/gals, you deserve your wage. But I live in a big 3 town (Chrysler) all my life I have heard these old men talk about how they make over 100k a yr and never had to do ANYTHING!!!! And the younger guys make the same amount and work for 3 hrs a day to get quota and play cards and do crosswords the rest of the day. No wonder the the son of a guns don't want things to change. My guess is that unions are making a lot of cash off of this scene and are not wanting to give. Can you blame them?!?!?!"


[edit on 18-12-2008 by Lanimilbus]

reply to post by CrashGecko


Hey, you like being a slave, it is your choice, but considering what corporate CEO's and lawyers, and the like make, Most union workers are under paid. You think CEO's and the like work so hard, you are fooled and suckered. Their idea of work is sitting around a conference table kicking around a bunch of abstract ideas that will never accomplish nothing. They got their jobs by kissing the right behinds, and stabbing the right backs. Ah, but you want to worship the ground they walk on, so sad.

Why should we be working 30 hour weeks? Because productivity has doubled since the sixties, and we now have both the husband and the wife working to make ends meet, so if things were the same as in the sixities, with both the man and wife working, they should only have to work 20 hours each to maintain a similar standard of living that one man earned working 40 hours a week to support a family.

Cars are piling up in warehouses because there are not enough buyers to purchase them, the problem isn't supply, it is demand. Not enough people make enough money to keep the economy running, that is the problem. Now, if there were shortages of everything, and people had money, but there was nothing to buy, like what was normal in the former USSR, then it would be reasonable to say that people make too much money, and do not produce enough, but our problems are the other way around, we are producing more than people are able to buy.

Do you see what is wrong with this picture?

I don't usually agree like to quote from the Rense site, but:

rense.com...

I earned my pension while I was working, not [inaudible] somebody else. The guy working today isn't earning my pension. I already earned that. General Motors should have taken that money, set it aside, put it in a trust. If they didn't do that, then they've committed a malfeasance. That's their responsibility. Also, when I was working, they charged the customer more money based on the fact, based on their excuse that "we have to pay more for this worker because of healthcare and pension and his retirement, so we have to charge the customer more." Whether that was 1980 or 1990, they raised those prices. What did they do with that money? They apparently didn't put it in a trust. But they did-and this is a fact-they've invested largely overseas. General Motors and Ford, they have more plants overseas than they have in the United States. They're ready to become major importers to the United States and dump all their responsibilities to the people who made those profits." (1)

In many ways this mirrors what was done by government with Social Security. The money paid in by the employees was not put into interest bearing trust accounts where it could have grown over time instead it was spent as fast as it came in and the public received only federal drawers filled with IOU's instead of the money that was supposedly being held in Trust for retiree's. In the case of the Big Three, they used the money paid (by their employees) into their employee-retirement-accounts to open up all those other plants overseas-that are now about to make possible the elimination of the work force whose money actually made this takedown possible. That is what this takedown is all about; to open the US market to imported GM, Chrysler and Ford products, and rid themselves of their obligations to deliver on the commitments they made to their employees over many decades. Their workers played the game by one set of rules, and now after the game has been completed the rules are being changed (again) so that those that sacrificed will be left with nothing.

The Auto Bailout was really a Union-busting scheme.

This Image



Pretty Much Says It All

reply to post by mybigunit



I don't blame the Unions for the bail-out. I do blame the Unions for the state of the U.S. auto industry. You can be as sick as you want because I feel that way, but your personal rage over the issue isn't going to change my opinion.

When the jobs go away I hope the Unions will feed the workers. I doubt they will though.

them union folks deserve nothin!!!

They is lucky the don't get $1.00 an hour! Or whipped!
They is so Unamericans

How about them CEOs???

They work real hard we should bail them out and get new workers. $1.50 an hour or so.

But all these Librals,,, are wah wah wah about them lazy union workers. Theys don't own a business. If you don't want to work fer that much get a new job or go to mexico.

I say put the minimum wage back at $.50 and then they can sell the cars cheaper, we can finally pay the CEO business owners a real wage!

reply to post by The Bald Champion


I know whats you gonna say... Won't them slimy union workers have less money to spend? Won't that mean that less money will enter the economy? Then you might says
that they communities around the factory will dry up because mom and pops won't have the same business to keep their workers? And all them AUTO slimeball Librals will loose them homes and further flood the market will forclosures...

I say get three jobs and stop wah wah wah... Bulldoze all the houses and put all of em in jail!!!

Next give their bank accounts moneys to the CEOS and hire chinese workers...
build little cages for them chinese, pay um $.03 an hour and make um pay for their trip over! Next you drop napalm on the ex union workers and sell the salvagable meat to KFC and TACO BELL for $.30 lbs.

Then we need to take the meat money and put it back into the company!

Problem solved!

Oh yeah, and European auto workers belong to unions as well, make more money, and have better benefits. The only difference is that their executive don't make obscene amounts of money.

Japanese workers also make more money than our auto workers, and have better benefits, and their executives don't make near the obscene amount of money that our execs make.

Oh, but everyone is happy to pay the government for our big military that protects the slave labor rights of our corporations overseas.

Originally posted by poet1b
Oh yeah, and European auto workers belong to unions as well, make more money, and have better benefits. The only difference is that their executive don't make obscene amounts of money.

Japanese workers also make more money than our auto workers, and have better benefits, and their executives don't make near the obscene amount of money that our execs make.

Oh, but everyone is happy to pay the government for our big military that protects the slave labor rights of our corporations overseas.

If this is typical of our UAW then they are all over paid.......

www.clickondetroit.com...

Originally posted by Lanimilbus
...The biggest issue to me is as I compare my job to theirs for example, ...I do the work of 5 union employees. Tell me what is wrong with that picture.
...

So Mr Lanimilbus, you do the work of 5 people. Good for you! (not meant as sarcastic, btw. An honest compliment).

Now tell us.... Does your boss pay you the equivalent union wage? Does he even pay you 1 1/2 times what a union guy would make? After all, you've eliminated about $200,000 a YEAR from what it would cost him in Union wages (let's say). Has any of that hard work making profit for him translated into a higher pay for you?

If you saved me $200,000 in expenses, I would think that I would pay you top dollar to keep you happy. Does he?

How much does it profit you? Do you see the problem?

Companies are endless sources of greed. There is no such thing as "enough profit" for a company. Do you realize that at one point in the mid 90s, Microsoft's profits were growing by 1000% A YEAR? Do you realize they were complaining that those profits weren't "good enough"?

Look at the, LITERALLY, slave labor that Wal-Mart uses in China. They do not directly employ said slaves, but they buy from the companies that do. And you think it won't happen here? IT ALREADY IS!

Oh, and for those of you who say "Blah, blah, blah, US Autoworkers, blah, blah, blah, look at Toyota!" realize this: Toyota just posted it's first ever LOSS recently. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I've SEEN how companies screw over workers firsthand. Guess what? The first thing they do when cutbacks are needed, is to fire the highest paid NON-MANAGERIAL workers. They do not do any analysis on who is actually doing the most work, or who is most knowledgeable. All they see is "Who is costing me the most money?", not "Who is giving me the best ROI?"

True case: I worked for an IT company. This company changed the way bonuses were paid out. These bonuses were DIRECTLY linked to how much you cost the company, versus how much you made the company. In other words, the more profit you made the company, the more you made. Sounds fair, right? The highest paid engineer made about $125,000 a year, on something between $300,000-$400,000 a year he made the company. In this "restructuring", he lost about 60% of his salary, but THE COMPANY EXPECTED HIM TO CONTINUE PUTTING IN 60, 70, 80 HOUR WEEKS FOR THE REDUCED COSTS. He quit, and most of the customers left. Translated: Yeah, the company saved about $70,000 a year, but it cost them $300,000 to save that $70,000. That's a bean counter for you.

Again, I will repeat.... for those of you that think Toyota is so "awesome" with it's non-union workers, realize this: They recently lost money for the first time ever. But I thought non-union workers saved the company so much money?

Here is the trick that TPTB play on all you guys who own your own company: They want you to think like the big boys concerning unions, but you get none of the benefits that they get. What happens if you run your company into the ground? You will lose your company (and your job), possibly your house, your car, and a whole host of other things, maybe culminating in bankruptcy. What does the CEO and Board of Directors of Ford, Chrysler, and GM lose when they go bankrupt? NOTHING. They will get million$ in payout money as the door hits them in the butt on the way out. Maybe even hundreds of millions. They don't call them "golden parachutes" for nothing, do they?

What it amounts to is jealousy. You envision these union workers as doing no work, for a high amount of pay. You ever sat on an assembly line? Doing the same thing, over and over and over again? I HAVE, and I couldn't stand it. They deserve every dollar they get.

And to those of you who think those "janitorial staff" are overpaid at $35 an hour, let me ask you a philosophical question. Would your life be any different if every single lawyer on the planet died tomorrow? Compare that to how your life would be different if every single trash collector died tomorrow. Now, who's worth the greater salary?

In the history of mankind, it is REPEATEDLY shown that companies will CRIMINALLY EXPLOIT (whether it is per se criminal, or merely morally criminal) it's workers, if given the choice. Want proof of that?

Take any company that ships it's work to China, or Mexico. They say "Oh, we are paying our workers in Mexico City $20 a day, and the average salary is only $10 a day." This gives the impression that they are paying them very well. The thing they don't tell you is that the "average" of $10 a day covers the rural areas, where salaries may be as low as $2 a day. (Numbers made up. You can research the actual figures if you'd like, but they aren't that far off). They don't tell you that the workers in the cities that they are employing at that price are living in ABJECT POVERTY. You see, that wouldn't be good press. Yes, if they had located those factories in RURAL areas, they would be paying VERY well. But they don't. They locate them in cities where the cost of living is astronomically higher than in the rural areas.

Here is the other thing that companies do. They say "We can hire a mexican worker for $10 an hour, and he works incredibly hard, all day long". What they don't want you to know is this: That mexican worker probably lives in a house with between 5 and 10 other guys. They live as cheaply as possible, so they can send that money back home to Mexico, WHERE IT GETS MULTIPLIED BY 10. Ten pesos for every dollar. So, it sounds like you are paying them dirt cheap, but when you include what happens to that money once it crosses a border, they are making something like $60-$70 an hour (in their money). How hard would YOU work for $60 an hour?

You see, companies are all for "exporting labor" to "reduce costs", but when some enterprising youngster comes up with a way to import goods at reduced costs, they put up legal barriers.

A prime example of this is regional encoding on DVDs. You see, Disney can't sell "The Little Mermaid" DVD for $20 in India. They may only be able to sell it for $1 or $2. They knew that if they sold it for those costs, then someone could just by 10 or 20,000 of them, and import them into the United States, and sell them for less than 1/2 of what a DVD from Disney would cost here. So, how did they get around that irritating little fact? "Regional Encoding!" You can't play the DVD that sells in India on United States DVD players. Does that sound like big companies are into "capitalism", "fair trade", and "let the best man win"? Or, does it sound like they are greedy SOBs that care only about profit?

Here's another prime example: Copyright laws. Do you realize that almost no new significant works have fallen into the public domain since shortly after WWII? Do you realize that when Mickey Mouse was set to fall into public domain, they had the copyright law changed so that copyright would, in effect, be forever? It now takes over 200 years for something to fall into public domain (if everything is done right). That sound fair to you? Here's just a historical note: For most of the history of our country, copyright was only good for 17 years. Think how cheaply you could buy music/movies over 17 years old if that law was followed now.

Those of you crying "They ought to bust up those unions", realize this: The middle class is the buffer to revolution. It's easy to move up from poverty to middle class. Much, much harder to move up from middle class to upper class. It is almost impossible to go from poverty to upper class. When the AMERICAN lower class realizes they have no hope of moving up in life, that they have been robbed of the "american dream", do you think they will take it laying down? Realize this: The revolution was started, in part, over a 5% tax on a BREAKFAST BEVERAGE. That's right, our founding fathers were blowing off people's heads over what, today, would be a nickle tax on a $1 cup of coffee. Revolution is BRED into american's genes, like it or not.

And when/if that revolution happens, do you think they will stop to say "Wait....Fred has lots of money, and has nice cars and a nice house, but he DID pay his workers fairly, and treated them like human beings", or do you think they are going to lump Fred in with the scum and villainy of the publicly owned companies' Executive officers and Board of Directors?

Tell me, Mr "I own my own company", who's going to buy your product when all the good paying manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas? Food and Water will always be in demand. If things get bad enough, even electricity will be expendable. How is the public going to afford your products when their jobs only allow for the basic NECESSITIES of life, not any luxuries? And trust me, there are very, very few things that are necessities in life.

Here's the crux of the issue... Have any of those "outsourced" jobs led to LOWER prices, and/or a better quality product? Can you name ONE car that is cheaper because it's parts are now made in Mexico, Brazil, and China? Here's a hint for you: The "foreign" (Toyota, Honda, etc.) car manufacturers' products are mostly made right here in America.

Another short history lesson: Japanese "management" has historically treated "laborers" as assets, and had a cooperative relationship with them. American companies do not. They view "management" and "labor" as being at odds, and are in a competitive viewpoint. This makes all the difference in the world.

Who is going to buy your products when everyone but a few is dirt poort in America?

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by Lanimilbus
...The biggest issue to me is as I compare my job to theirs for example, ...I do the work of 5 union employees. Tell me what is wrong with that picture.
...

So Mr Lanimilbus, you do the work of 5 people. Good for you! (not meant as sarcastic, btw. An honest compliment).

Now tell us.... Does your boss pay you the equivalent union wage?

Actually, yes sir he does. However, I think most are missing my point. It is the productivity aspect of it. Some non-union companies pay union wages without the unions telling the company what quota is. Like I said before, The old guys do NOTHING. The young guys work 2-3 hrs a day to get quota. I have seen it all my life. I on the other hand work 8 hrs a day, thus producing far more work than those guys.
Quite simply, a honest days work for an honest days pay. Is there anything anyone does not understand about that? It is the real issue here.