Im Sick of and Im Fed Up of Unions Being Blamed For Auto Bailout Breakdown!!!!

Ok Im SICK AND TIRED of everyone blaming the Unions for the downfall of the Auto companies and the bailouts. Sick of it. First off are we in America NOT allowed to have a middle class? Do have have to pay our people like they do in China? Are we supposed to just have the wealthy at the top and then the servants that serve them in the bottom.

The fact is the American companies really DONT pay a whole lot more than the Japanese companies as shown in this link here

www.aftermarketnews.com... px

I mean they make $28 bucks an hour which is $1000 bucks a week. People Im sorry but that is NOT a lot of money considering what things cost anymore. Are the working class supposed to just drivel for the swill that the multi million dollar execs give them? Once again are we to only have two classes here in America rich or poor? I heard Senator Demint on CNN this morning saying that we need to go to a Japanese style pay system in the auto field. Oh Yeah???? Do you know that the Japanese only allow the top execs to only make 10x more than their highest paid average employee? You want to go to that system huh?

People dont get me wrong here I think these guys should fail. They produced crap products and have been behind for a few decades now in technology, quality, and pricing all because they thought that they could sell their name for the rest of time. They now see this to be a farce but now its to late. They should be allowed to go bankrupt period and the assets purchased by people who can manage companies. But to blame this whole ordeal on the Unions is disgusting.

Soon we will be like China. Its already taking shape. Pay doesnt even come close to keeping up with inflation and that is a fact. I give it 10 years and we will have no middle class. The Unions were the last voice of the working class that has even come close to keeping somewhat of a middle class here. All of our other manufacturing jobs have been shipped to China and the tech jobs sent to India. I know we have some anti union people on ATS I want to hear what you have to say.



[edit on 12-12-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by mybigunit

I mean they make $28 bucks an hour which is $1000 bucks a week. People Im sorry but that is NOT a lot of money considering what things cost anymore.

That is true. The wages are not the real problem, it is the total burden cost that is the problem. From what I have done researching the facts, the real problem is the retirement payments to those already retired.

In 2005, GM provided health and income benefits to more than 450,000 retirees and their surviving spouses, and retirees and their dependents outnumbered the company's active workforce by three-to-one. This imbalance will continue to grow as more and more retirees are supported by fewer and fewer workers, especially since a) nearly a third of GM's hourly workforce signed up for payout packages in 2006, resulting in even more retirees and fewer active workers, b) GM continues to lose market share (see graph above), and rising legacy costs get spread over fewer and fewer vehicles.
Bottom Line: The UAW is the most successful union in U.S. history, at achieving both higher-than-market wages and below-market productivity for its members, in the short run. But that very union success has now created the seeds of a powerful destruction that we are witnessing today, and in the long run the success of the UAW is destroying thousands and thousands, and maybe millions of union jobs, and is destroying many of the very companies that employs its members (GM, Ford and Chrysler).

I sympathize with the workers and retirees. I also understand the predicament that the big 3 are in, because the numbers just won't fit, even if they are given the 14 billion. All that will do is delay the inevitable. It is much like the predicament that Social Security is in. Fewer and fewer workers are available to pay more and more retirees. There is no simple solution, regardless of which side you look at. GM alone has $62 billion in debt, which shows you one simple fact. The problem is so bad, that none of the solutions being offered will solve the problem. Unfortunately, Americans have been used to having "Happy Endings" to all of their stories, and I don't think even the scriptwriters can imagine a happy ending to this story.

I'm not here to argue the solution, just to explain why this problem won't be solved without major hurt to either: 1.)the auto workers or 2.) the taxpayers

You just don't get it.

Industrial workers have for a long time (since the Soviet Revolution actually) enjoyed an image of being hard working lower class people who "deserve" higher wages.

Lets take a look at modern American society. Each child has access to a similar quality of education via a fantastic public school system. Each child has a great opportunity at making the most of his intrinsic abilities in America- it is still the land of opportunity.

So why do some become lowly-skilled menial workers in auto plants? Why must they then be paid more than they are "worth"?

The fat cats at the top are paid that well for a reason - there is only one CEO. He has outperformed his peers from the day he was a little kid and ended up the leader of a major corporation. The floor worker on the other hands is amidst a rank of millions. Imagine that... to deliver a $100 dollar christmas bonus to its workers, the America auto industry would have to shell out $300 million dollars!

Its simple meritocracy really. Engineers, designers, financiers, management are all paid more because they are better, more skilled and were more ambitious than the floor worker; and because they are far fewer in number. Any man can wield a wrench, but how many can design a car that is aerodynamically efficient?

The auto unions were demanding something that was not deliverable in the long term. You cannot expect to run an efficient business if you have to over-pay for sub-par talent. If the American workers refused to work, the automakers could well have just hired immigrant labour for a fraction of the price.

That is where the cushy job culture expected by unionistas fails. They simply dont understand the nature of the modern world. Either they work for a fairer price, or there is someone lined up to do the job better than them at a fraction of the cost. To me 48k USD (£34k) per annum is more than fair for a floor worker.

Ultimately the discussion is somewhat moot. If the unions don't drop their outdated and ridiculous pay demands, they will be out of a job. As it stands the Japanese offer better quality and better prices... I don't really know why anyone would buy a bloated truck from a bloated company like GM.

In modern times the auto-worker is not some frugal workhorse, powering the factory engines of the nation. The auto-worker in America today is an over-paid, underproductive dinosaur that needs a drastic lesson in efficiency.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Ehat they don't mention is that GM has not been paying into the fund for years and thats why they owe so much. When a retire starts collecting social security that ammount is deducted from their retirement and a surviving spouse only gets 1/2 of the retirement. Blaming the union is the tactic they like to use to make people mad.You don't see them asking mamagement to take a pay or benifit cut do you.

mikell

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
You just don't get it.

Industrial workers have for a long time (since the Soviet Revolution actually) enjoyed an image of being hard working lower class people who "deserve" higher wages.

Lets take a look at modern American society. Each child has access to a similar quality of education via a fantastic public school system. Each child has a great opportunity at making the most of his intrinsic abilities in America- it is still the land of opportunity.

So why do some become lowly-skilled menial workers in auto plants? Why must they then be paid more than they are "worth"?

Ok so what are the peons "worth" then? If $50,000 a year is not what a employee of the auto companies is worth than what is? I get it and trust me I dont like it. When working for a company its a team effort right? So why does all the pay need to go straight to the top? If all those auto workers walked you know how much the CEOs could make? Nothing. As far as the CEOs Ill get to that in the next paragraph.

The fat cats at the top are paid that well for a reason - there is only one CEO. He has outperformed his peers from the day he was a little kid and ended up the leader of a major corporation. The floor worker on the other hands is amidst a rank of millions. Imagine that... to deliver a $100 dollar christmas bonus to its workers, the America auto industry would have to shell out $300 million dollars!

Its simple meritocracy really. Engineers, designers, financiers, management are all paid more because they are better, more skilled and were more ambitious than the floor worker; and because they are far fewer in number. Any man can wield a wrench, but how many can design a car that is aerodynamically efficient?

Ok lets talk about the CEOs. Are the CEOs and execs of today "worth" what they all are being paid? You say there is only one but what happened to the days of working your way up? There used to be a day when people could start at the bottom and work their way up through hard work and dedication and not just by who you know and where you went to school. The fact is some of the best CEOs in American history are high school and college drop outs. Back to what execs are worth so how much are they worth? Considering most of the major fortune 500 companies are his the sh!t hole because of mismanagement over the past 20 and 30 years I think we need to re evaluate what an Exec is worth shouldnt we? Is their work worth more than 400x what the worker on the assembly line is?

The auto unions were demanding something that was not deliverable in the long term. You cannot expect to run an efficient business if you have to over-pay for sub-par talent. If the American workers refused to work, the automakers could well have just hired immigrant labour for a fraction of the price.

That is where the cushy job culture expected by unionistas fails. They simply dont understand the nature of the modern world. Either they work for a fairer price, or there is someone lined up to do the job better than them at a fraction of the cost. To me 48k USD (£34k) per annum is more than fair for a floor worker.

Ultimately the discussion is somewhat moot. If the unions don't drop their outdated and ridiculous pay demands, they will be out of a job. As it stands the Japanese offer better quality and better prices... I don't really know why anyone would buy a bloated truck from a bloated company like GM.

In modern times the auto-worker is not some frugal workhorse, powering the factory engines of the nation. The auto-worker in America today is an over-paid, underproductive dinosaur that needs a drastic lesson in efficiency.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Can you expect to run a business with shotty management? Im sorry you cant. $50,000 a year is fair pay for what they do and that is what they are getting paid. But all the talking heads seem to want the worker to be paid in the $30s. WTF? As far as lining up to do a better job at a cheaper price yea your right over in China. This is why we are losing all of our manufacturing jobs there. Most Americans want a living wage and frankly I dont see anything wrong with that. Remember the sain an honest days work for an honest days pay. That isnt what it is its an honest days work for a big bonus for CEOs and investors. Henry Ford you know him hes the one who STARTED Ford from the ground up fully understood that you need to pay your people well because its those same people who will come back and buy your car. Its called Fordism. Execs of today dont feel this way especially in Wall Street. Its take what you can while you can and F*** everyone else and you wonder why we are in this quagmire.

Originally posted by mikellmikell
Ehat they don't mention is that GM has not been paying into the fund for years and thats why they owe so much. When a retire starts collecting social security that ammount is deducted from their retirement and a surviving spouse only gets 1/2 of the retirement. Blaming the union is the tactic they like to use to make people mad.You don't see them asking mamagement to take a pay or benifit cut do you.

mikell

Well they did as the Execs and GM and what not to make sacrifices but the Wall Street bailout NOTHING was asked of them. That is what disgusts me.

reply to post by mikellmikell

a surviving spouse only gets 1/2 of the retirement.

That is federal law, and is not limited to just auto workers. Federal law says that retirement plans MUST offer at least 50 percent survivor options to employees.

3 trillion dollars for Wall Street, no questions asked. Think of all those lucky rich investors. It's Socialism for the rich and hard 'capitalism' (i.e. a system of cartels that fix prices which is not capitalism) for the not rich. We are moving back to the days the Victorian era.

I just want to say i dont know how much things there in the U.S but over here it cost me and my partner 90 pounds =134.58 dollars every 3-4 weeks in food shopping.

petrol here in the uk is 90p per LITRE = 1.35 DOLLARS a litre, which works out Per gallon that is around the 6.20 dollars in us.

Whos being screwed???

668.76 per WEEK ( in pounds) You are saying is not enough??

Are you kidding me? average wage here is 6 pound per hour so 6 pounds x 9 hours a day = 54 pounds a day = 80.75 dollars

in one week we would earn 270 pounds

in dollars = thats 403.73 dollars.

so not being funny if i was on 668.76 pound a week id be living in a mansion here.

Crazy how two countrys use money

reply to post by forshow


It's not comparable. For example, health care...

Originally posted by rizla
3 trillion dollars for Wall Street, no questions asked. Think of all those lucky rich investors. It's Socialism for the rich and hard 'capitalism' (i.e. a system of cartels that fix prices which is not capitalism) for the not rich. We are moving back to the days the Victorian era.

Correct and because we have a consumer based economy and there is no middle class and the working class is wiped out we have to rely on the top 1% to spend us out of this. But they dont. Its all in treasuries and other forms of investments. A consumer based economy can exist but if you put all the money in the top it wont exist long.

18.73 pounds per hour sounds amazing

i think im going to move to the U.S

reply to post by rizla


Good point how much is that per...month?

Originally posted by forshow
I just want to say i dont know how much things there in the U.S but over here it cost me and my partner 90 pounds =134.58 dollars every 3-4 weeks in food shopping.

petrol here in the uk is 90p per LITRE = 1.35 DOLLARS a litre, which works out Per gallon that is around the 6.20 dollars in us.

Whos being screwed???

668.76 per WEEK ( in pounds) You are saying is not enough??

Are you kidding me? average wage here is 6 pound per hour so 6 pounds x 9 hours a day = 54 pounds a day = 80.75 dollars

in one week we would earn 270 pounds

in dollars = thats 403.73 dollars.

so not being funny if i was on 668.76 pound a week id be living in a mansion here.

Crazy how two countrys use money

The average pay here is $48,000 per year here so the pay is essentially the same. My brothers across the pond and us have the same problem.... All the wealth is sitting at the top. So we get to feed on the scraps that is left over by them.

reply to post by mybigunit


Deff agree with you.

Both countrys are being ripped off to the max...we do get free health care here....but thats turning into a joke - awesome system but its abused.

i watched micheal moores film about the health care in U.S and jesus guys i feel sorry for you.

Wow I didn't realize $28 bucks an hour was so little. Who knew that 53,760 bucks a year was such a harsh life for people that probably don't need more the a high school diploma.

It seems to me that's a little more then the average person makes and is much higher then a fair market price would dictate considering all the people that have no jobs currently.

Unions are horrible. If they are so well and good, why do their CEO's make more money they the company's the represent?

Why is it we didn't bail out the horse carriage industry when it was going away? Wasn't that also an iconic industry as they keep saying from capital hill? Times change. Company's making bad products and paying employee's too much made them then charge to much and not compete in the market.


Let them fail! And then lets see where those people can go make just $28 bucks an hour.

Originally posted by mybigunit


Can you expect to run a business with shotty management?

I think the bigger question here becomes . . . Can you expect to run a country with shoddy management?

We are living the answer.

It is the lawmakers that have run amok, creating from sound, responsible and ethical fiscal policy their own economic system based predominantly on credit . . . on money that does not exist.

It is the lawmakers that have allowed the business interests to further exploit that bastardized economic system to build their wealth on money that does not exist.

It is the lawmakers that allowed the average joe to further bastardize that economic system to allow that average joe to extract their own little measure of profit from that mythical pile of money.

Guess what . . . the emporer is truly naked and the jig is up.

It isn't the unions, the government, the corporate elite or the average joe . . . it is ALL of us.

Again, we are living the hell we created and getting out of it is gonna hurt bad.

Very very bad.

reply to post by forshow


$135 for 3-4 weeks of food is fantastic. That would be near impossible to do here without eating smack ramen noodles all day.


re: other posts

I can't believe the hating on blue collar workers in here. The anti-unionists are bourgeois and doing the bidding of the corporate elite. Pretty sad for someone to assume all auto workers are stupid and probably not high school grads. The US worker has been financially raped and many are out of retirement funds dooming them to servitude for the rest of their lives picking up what ever scraps the rich pinch out.

[edit on 12/12/08 by stikkinikki]

Well, it would seem they need to be audited to find out where all of this spending has gone to. Unions, it would seem, have had way too much leverage in making demands that are now as if a dying breed in the current competitive market.

I recall years ago how expensive it was for just a 'used' TV. There does seem to be something criminal going on as if scimming and double dipping from someone that brought this on. It's now too late for: "It wasn't us or them"

Originally posted by stikkinikki

$135 for 3-4 weeks of food is fantastic. That would be near impossible to do here without eating smack ramen noodles all day.

oh the memories of college

I would reach to the rear of the shelf and sweep my arm forward and a whole section Smack Ramen into my cart and then move on to the smack and cheese spot and do the same.