Auto Unions Refuse to Take Pay, Benefit Cuts

Originally posted by deepred
To those that are willing to take a pay cut to protect your job, I say put your money where your mouth is.

Be proactive and let your employer know that you wish to have your pay reduced immediately in an effort to make your job more secure.

Ha Ha! Absolutely!
Star for you my friend...

These arguments never end. The reality is that we have accepted a global marketplace in order to have access to cheaper goods, so now we will pay the price with lower wages. That is simply the way it is going to be. Unions are not good or evil, but they are going the way of the dinosaur. The future will be one of less expensive stuff and more expensive services, and most people in the U.S. will be poorer, while some will be much richer.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS

Are you a union member?

Nope, I would never join one. But I had family and friends that have been. I have seen their handy work in my area forcing companies to move.

Nope, I already know you're not. So, how is it you know SO MUCH about unions?

Let me tell you a little story about unions. My father has worked at company for 27 years. He spent 20 of those years welding and working the at the production level making trailers for a very successful business in my hometown. Every 7 years they expand their factory because of its success. It is also one of the largest employers in my hometown. He eventually made it to foreman and had taken on alot of responsibility. He is now making money that he never dreamed of when he first came to came to Canada from Mexico in the early 80s.

Anyway a couple of years ago, a couple of employees got this idea that the company was not paying them enough. So they threatened to install a union. Needless to say the company was not very happy, along with my dad.

They eventually brought the union in. Their first job was to check if the employees were indeed underpaid compared to other workers in the province. Their findings were that most of the employees were actually overpaid!! Those employees got their wages cut and also now had to pay union fees. On top of that the employees stopped getting their quarterly profit-sharing check and had their christmas and summer vacation bonuses cut.

Also now they had the problem of not being able to fire unproductive workers. There were a couple of employees that nobody wanted there because they were lazy and unwilling to work any harder because these guys knew that as long as they did the bare minimum, they could not get fired. Funny my dad had to come up with some ingenious ways to make these guys quit. When my dad was successful the rest of the workers actually thanked him and bought him gifts.

Now for the last two years the workers have been trying to get rid of the union because they see how screwed over they were and how much of a scam it is. They have been unsuccessful so far because of the bureaucracy but I am sure they will succeed soon enough.

I can give you many more stories if you please, but I don't really have to. Look at any industry where unions have a stronghold. Airlines, nurses, teachers etc.. They couldn't care less about the consumer or the companies survival. They only care about themselves and will use any legislation that they can to get their way. If there isn't legislation, they pay millions of dollars to politicians who will make their self serving legislation.

wow, an expert about nothing IMO

If you've got founded evidence to support your rancid attacks about my stand for unionism, please intelligently make them, otherwise all your spouting is biased propaganda from the comfort of your arm chair.

My evidence is what happens to businesses that have unions. It is a shining example of collectivism. They despise individaulity. They love to make decisions for people. Like you said in another post, they are like mini-government within a company complete with the football field sized bureaucracy.

[edit on 13-12-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

Don't be ashamed to work at Wal-mart, we have an open door policy.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


GamerGal said that I called union workers "evil employees".

She is a LIAR. She has a habit of trolling like this in threads. I have called her a LIAR several times in the past, and never did she defend herself. That is because she cannot defend her lies.

The fact that you stand by talk like that is incredible, but not unbelievable.

You throw out a half-assed statement about R&D in Japan and expect me to debate it? As if you've had some type of epiphany?

Throw in the rest of the facts; culture, trade policy, tariffs, etc., and then we can discuss it.

And then you season your post with words like "the Japanese companies that JsoBecky praises" .

I'm done arguing with you. It's not worth my time.

reply to post by marg6043

Originally posted by marg6043
My husband will be darn if he will take a cut in his salary to make congress and corporate America happy.

Hell no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good. Then I suggest he never go hat in hand asking for tax dollars to bail him out.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Good. Then I suggest he never go hat in hand asking for tax dollars to bail him out.

Js you know very well that our tax dollars only bail out the filthy rich in the nation and the global elites in the banking system.

So hey we never ever dream of any bail out for us the peons of America.

You know that when it comes to our corrupted government that is what we are nothing but peons to keep sweating tax payer dollars for the nations rich.

reply to post by jsobecky


This topic, the one you started, is "Unions are the devil!" Oh sure the CEO makes more then all of his employees together but its still the American workforces fault. You say that it is the middle American's fault. You say it is the American workers fault. It isn't the CEO who bankrupted a company while buying the GOP. It isn't the GOP that just voted to destroy America. Nope, its the American people's fault according to you.

According to the latest it appears that King George is going to defy the Articles of the Constitution when it comes to appropriating tax dollars, a job specifically reserved for our elected representatives in Congress, and simply earmark some of the illegally allocated TARP dollars, lacking any semblance of over-sight, and give that to the auto industry. My, my, my... it seems that those we have tasked with solving our economic woes only seem to continue contributing to them.

With it now appearing that the money will be alloted the dying Big 3, I am anxious to see exactly what concessions the unions will make, if at all. I suspect that by Monday it will be business as usual - under-skilled workers being grossly over-paid for substandard work, management receiving bonuses for continuing to kill their companies and shoddy product being driven off the end of the lines to go sit at a dealership for the next year with no one buying it.

At the end of all of this political posturing we are going to find that the terminal patient has, in fact, died anyway. Billions of dollars in tax-payer monies will have been lost. And those workers whose jobs we tried to save will simply have vanished. Since they possess no real skills they will arrive at Burger King and Wal-Mart en masse and accept their $10.00 an hour wages.

I guess the silver lining will be that our tax dollars will have propped up the wealthy executive's bank accounts so that they can weather this economic storm without having to cancel their country club memberships.

I FIND THIS DISGUSTING - I had no idea what union members were earning in the USA - $100 an hour is like £80 per hour in the UK - I don't know anyone that earns that in a non professional job.

I have friends who are 25-35 who are lawyers with top firms who only take home 70k per years (thats in £) - still only around $100,000 in dollars! How can they justify paying someone who does something that in all honest I think most people could do just as well given maybe 2 years experience.

I also have friends who are welders - best grades available at their firms - one even welds underwater for oil companies and he doesn't even get close to this per hour!!!!

These guys stand in a nice warm factory, doing very little, with regular breaks and full benefits/retirement packages -

I find the fact that they get paid 90% salary when out of work disgraceful - WHO IS PAYING FOR THIS (not I for sure as I am not in the US).

ABOUT ME: I am a top graduate from the UK's Cambridge University in Chemistry, I have a post graduate masters degree in business. Since leaving university I have always had trouble finding jobs - even with the most polished credentials available my first job only paid around $400 dollars PER WEEK! And this was in London one of the most expensive cities on earth. I was salaried - as NO pro jobs in the UK are paid on hourly rates unless maybe you are part time etc - so I regularly worked 10-12 hour day and occasionally a Saturday. I had no benefits of pension contributions.

I gave up that job to take another at around $600 per week - again no benefits and worked half to death. I talked to my managers after 1 year asking for a rise as I'd done a great job, earned loads of money for the company and was regularly working longer than is even legal in the EU (they make you waive this right in almost ALL employment contracts in the UK). He laughed and said that if I wanted to work there I could, if not go elsewhere - I should be grateful I had a job!)..

I did go elsewhere - for the same money - and recently lost this job due to the company going into liquidation.

Despite having great experience (5 years working AND at even successfully freelancing/being self employed - unusual for someone of my age), a degree in a complex subject from one of the most prestigious institutions on the planet AND a post graduate degree - the only work I have been offered despite searching and applying almost every day - is a role where they'd like me to 'start for $400 a week and see how it goes'

I don't know how it is in the US - but here we have national campaigns which tell you how great having a college degree is - how much you will earn - how you can better yourself by doing it? My life would be better off if I had left school at 16 and got a job where I could have joined a union and being looked after for life.

I didn't do this because I wanted to achieve something more and college is spun to be the way to do this - what other decision would a rational 16 year old forced to decide what he wants to do with his life take? If you can goto college - i.e. you are intelligent enough - of course you go!!!

I feel very short changed, I have massive debts that I used to pay for college (i just got a statement stating that the interest added this year is double the payments I was able to make - the loan is HUGE - despite the fact I was led to believe it was interest free by the local government dept that arranges if for you here!)

Now I have no job, no money coming in - and at 25 I am forced to consider moving back to my parents in order to seek work again - so humiliating.

And for those who say 'why not just go get a union job now if it looks so good' - I have been to plenty of companies who look at my CV, laugh and tell me I'm over qualified and that I'd 'get bored in days'. So in my case at least - having a great degree can bar access to 'regular employment'

Where's my share of the bailout money? Who's looking out for me?

reply to post by kozmo


The big three will be bankrupt by the end of next year, this nothing but another waste of tax payer dollars when they can file for bankruptcy and do better.

Just to show that at the end King George is the reigning sovereign and the crown is corporate America.

Nice to see that the next president will be catering to the same corruption that Bush has been catering for 8 years.

That's Ok because once the big three goes down "Toyota" will be there to take the lead and "stagnate" more the wages of the auto workers when they don't have to compete with the big three, just do what they do in Japan, hire more "unskilled" workers on temp and pay them minimum wages.

And . . . reserve the profits and good pay with benefit packages to their CEOs and management.

reply to post by jsobecky


And guess which senator was not even present to vote (as usual)? Barack Hussein Obama.

Biden, also, did not vote.

And, Harry Reid, VOTED NO!

Ah, the hypocrisy of the questionable Honorable Senator Reid! This creep should be tarred and feathered first!

Since jsobecky will not debate me, let me address his points to people that will listen. Here is his post to me:

jsobecky said:

She is a LIAR. She has a habit of trolling like this in threads.

I have called her a LIAR several times in the past, and never did she defend herself.

That is because she cannot defend her lies. The fact that you stand by talk like that is incredible, but not unbelievable.

You throw out a half-assed statement about R&D in Japan and expect me to debate it? As if you've had some type of epiphany? Throw in the rest of the facts; culture, trade policy, tariffs, etc., and then we can discuss it.

And then you season your post with words like "the Japanese companies that JsoBecky praises" . I'm done arguing with you. It's not worth my time

jsobecky admits constantly calling a member a Liar. Hardly in keeping with the ATS T & C.

Then he criticizes her for not defending herself.
Well, perhaps she understands the ATS T & C, and doesn't want to stoop to jsobecky's level.

As to me standing by her, yes, I don't like any member calling another member a LIAR.

The next sentence shows the foul mouth again of jsobecky, with phrases like "half-a--ed". I certainly was not raised to use such language. However, the fact that he thinks it "is incredible, but not unbelievable" that I do not accept such behavior on his part, makes me wonder about him.

Then he objects to me bringing up the Japanese government's support of their companies, such as Toyota, with money for research and development, even though he knows that it is one of the reasons that the US companies cannot compete fairly with the Japanese companies, because THEIR government is helping them.

He then throws in a nebulous statement about culture, as if that somehow justifies the Japanese support of their industry, and that we shouldn't count that when we try to address WHY our companies can't compete with Japanese companies.

Finally, since he obviously had no retort to my points, other than more name calling, he gives up and refuses to address my posts.

Fine, however, as you can see from my posts, I am not the one that calls names and I am not the one who refuses to debate.

However, unlike him, I will respect his wishes, and not return to this thread, nor will I post on any thread of his. It is obvious to me that he only wants people who agree with what he posts. Perhaps Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh can join ATS and together they can post to each other, and praise the Republican party for the WONDERFUL job that they have done over the last 8 years. They have done what no one else has managed to do, the country is in shambles, we're in two wars that we can't win, most of our banks are near bankruptcy, one of our flagship industries is on the brink of oblivion, ......well, you get the picture, and it isn't very pretty. That's ok, because according to jsobecky, it's all the fault of the American worker.

Originally posted by jsobecky

They cannot expect to gain the support of the average American, many of whom are without a job at all, by refusing to negotiate.

Unfortunately, they think they can. Perhaps when they are out of work along with the other 11 million or so Americans, they will understand a little better that their Union may dictate to the auto makers; however, they do not dictate to the American people.


[edit on 12/13/2008 by DarrylGalasso]

reply to post by inthesticks

Seems Dodd forgot to mention that 10 Republicans voted FOR the bailout, 4 Dems voted AGAINST and 4 Dems DIDN'T VOTE AT ALL. So, if the 4 Dems that voted AGAINST, and the 4 Dems that didn't vote at all, would have voted FOR the bailout, the Big 3 would have had their bailout. So, whose fault is it that the bailout didn't pass?

A little research into the quoted statement reveals how far off it really is. Talk about spin.

The 52-35 roll call by which opponents on Thursday prevented the Senate from considering a $14 billion emergency bailout passed by the House for U.S. automakers.

On this vote, a "yes" vote was a vote to formally consider the House bill and a "no" vote was a vote to stop its progress. Supporters of the bailout needed 60 votes to advance it.

Voting "yes" were 40 Democrats, 10 Republicans and 2 independents.

Voting "no" were 4 Democrats and 31 Republicans.

source

First off, the vote wasn't even on the bailout. It was to formally consider the House bill. It needed 60 votes to pass. 40 Dems voted to consider the bill, 31 Reps voted not to. So, who voted in the majority against considering the bill?

You made a big deal out of 4 Dems voting not to consider the bill and 4 not voting at all.

Republicans Not Voting

Alexander, Tenn.; Cornyn, Texas; Craig, Idaho; Graham, S.C.; Hagel, Neb.; Smith, Ore.; Stevens, Alaska; Sununu, N.H.

8 Reps didn't vote at all. 31 voted against considering the bill.

Now, which party is most responsible for the House bill not being considered for a vote by the Senate?

Do you honestly think the reason that the bailout failed is because the workers did not take a pay cut? This is the most uninformed point of view I have heard.


Do people realize that it was the uaw that fought long and hard for workers to recieve their wages ,and it was this that help create the middle class. This whole idea of pay cuts and all is just one way the government and the powers that be are slowly dissolving the middle class.

Who do you think pays most of the taxes that the government gets?
What do you think happens to a country when there is no manufacturing sector?When nothing is produced.

Wakeup please.
When people complain about how little they work for the money they get,I ask you this .How hard does a government worker work? What do they produce of economic value?

Instead of agreeing like sheep with the powers that be why not get more informed first?

Why is it that japan can sell their vehicles over in north america but do you see american cars over their? Before you come up with some silly explanation do some research on why? It is not a level playing field, and this is totally in the governments control.



[edit on 13-12-2008 by bigheadjay]

Originally posted by bigheadjay

Do people realize that it was the uaw that fought long and hard for workers to recieve their wages ,and it was this that help create the middle class.

Really? Unions singlehandedly help create the middle class? All the unions have done is force the middle class to pay more for products, force companies to not innovate, force them to produce an uncompetitve product etc.. If anything they have done far more harm to the middle class than benefit it.

This whole idea of pay cuts and all is just one way the government and the powers that be are slowly dissolving the middle class.

So paying a realistic wage for workers and affordable benefits is gonna kill the middle class? The middle class would benefit far more if they could buy a quality product at a competitive price. Wait a minute, that's exactly what the foreign automakers have been doing! (I love my civic) And guess what? Because people have wanted to buy their products and can afford to do so, they have grown and so are the number of employees. Whoops how did they possibly do this without unions?

Who do you think pays most of the taxes that the government gets?

Certainly not the middle class

What do you think happens to a country when there is no manufacturing sector?When nothing is produced.

Which is exactly what would happen if unions had a monopoly on labor.

When people complain about how little they work for the money they get,I ask you this .How hard does a government worker work? What do they produce of economic value?

Not much. I don't think you will find many people that are against unions and progovernment.

Why is it that japan can sell their vehicles over in north america but do you see american cars over their?

You know why? Try fitting a Lincoln Navigator down the streets of Hong Kong.

Before you come up with some silly explanation do some research on why? It is not a level playing field, and this is totally in the governments control.

Sure nobody is denying that Government doesn't play a part in their industry over there. But could GM cars really compete with say a Toyota over there? Not likely because GM has had a very different attitude and different customer. They build much bigger vehicles than the Toyotas and Hondas out there. Their cars are also more fuel efficient. Now if GM finds a way to be competitive out there with smaller cars of higher quality, then more people would be willing to buy them over there.

I've stated it before and I'll say it again: the Detroit business model is broken. It may have worked 40 years ago when there was no global competition, but it is suicide today.

You cannot have a labor intensive industry and pay your workers twice as much as your competition for a product that is of much poorer quality.

It seems that Detroit thinks we are obligated to buy their inferior products because of a sense of nationalism. They want us to preserve their lifestyle at our expense. They are unwilling to work with us, however, to make it work.

They are wrong.

Remember last year when the American people strongly objected to amnesty for illegals. We stopped it in it's tracks, through activism. We can do the same with these bailouts.

Detroit needs to reorganize. Look at the airlines - Continental reorganized 3 times and is now one of the financially strongest airlines.

It's painful, and sacrifices need to be made, but that's what happens when a problem is ignored for years. It's like that tooth you ignored until it became decayed and abcessed - now it's going to hurt to fix it. Or else, it will have to be pulled.

But labor is partly at fault here, because they refuse to renegotiate in order to save their own jobs.

And as an aside:

Now nowhere did I state that this is entirely the fault of the laborers, regardless of what GamerGal and ProfEmeritus try to say. I never said the workers were "evil", as GG said I did. I will not debate with either of them in this thread because the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

reply to post by VType


Thank you. I'm don't understand the hate against fellow Americans also. These autoworkers aren't the CEOs and the losers on wall street.

I wish I made close to that much at either one of my jobs. I agree with the thread starter about wanting to take a pay cut to keep your job.Your already incredibly overpaid and your factory is in jeopardy of closing and you refuse to take a pay cut?