Auto Unions Refuse to Take Pay, Benefit Cuts

The reason the auto bailout plan failed in the US Senate is because the unions refused to consider cutting salaries to bring them more in line with the rest of the automakers such as Honda, Nissan, and Toyota.

Now, if it were me, I would take a paycut to keep my job in this economy.

GM pays approx. $69/hr for salaries and benefits.

Toyota pays approx $48/hr.

If I were union, I would be negotiating things like sick and vacation days, while keeping medical benefits.

They cannot expect to gain the support of the average American, many of whom are without a job at all, by refusing to negotiate.

Republicans, breaking sharply with President George W. Bush as his term draws to a close, refused to back federal aid for Detroit's beleaguered Big Three without a guarantee that the United Auto Workers would agree by the end of next year to wage cuts to bring their pay into line with U.S. plants of Japanese carmakers. The UAW refused to do so before its current contract with the automakers expires in 2011.

news.yahoo.com...

I've yet to ever earn those types of wages. I have difficulty feeling sorry for the (racket) unions and with these wages when many others don't see this. Most cannot afford new cars anymore.

The higher wages are not producing better cars than the competitors for obvious reasons. Greed and poverty bites us all eventually. Goodbye unions? I could think of worse things than losing unions if the economy doesn't change. If Ceberus won't help it's own company, than why should the taxpayers? GM and the automotive industry obviously need a drastic restructuring anyway.

Those wages are overbloated. Most of them are standing around in an assembly line watching the robots do all the work and every once in a while lean over to take a closer look at some weld joint or to see if a door got put on straight. Or they are standing there waiting to drive the car out the door and into the parking lot or putting 5 gallons of gas in it.

I know of technical guys who spent 20+ years in the high tech field and dont earn no 60 bucks an hour! Yet they, just as I do, have a wall full of degrees and certifications that clearly prove we are worth a hell of a lot more than 60 bucks and we dont just stand around all day picking and prodding at robotic weld jobs.

I dont have any sympathy for those types of workers earing that much money when they clearly are not worth it and dont do any work that justifies such a huge salary. I have been to several assembly plants and design centers and I was shocked at what little work they actually do in an 8 hour workday.

Im glad the bailout failed to pass. Im tired of my tax dollars being sucked up by these free for all loaders of this country breaking all our backs and dont give a rat's ass about us at all.

Poop on em.





Cheers!!!!

I would also rather take a cut in pay than have no job at all.

Interesting to me is this. Toyota has a plant in San Antonio, they make the Tundra trucks. They are not union. Because the gas prices went sky high, the Tundra sales fell and the plant was closed for three months. The employees were still PAID their full salary. A couple of the production lines have reopened with a shorter work week. The workers on the lines that have not reopened yet are still being paid. Many of the Toyota employees have been interviewed on local news channels, before and since the closings, and every one of them have said they LOVE working for Toyota. That's it a great company and the employees are always treated fairly,

Seems like Toyota is doing something right, WITHOUT the unions. I think the Big 3 could take some lessons from Toyota.

My grandfather used to own a large construction company. He was looking for a crane operator. Now mind you this is in the early 70s. This guy who was a former union member wanted the job but would only accept 18$ an hour. My grandfather said he would only pay 16$. But the guy said he refused to work for less then 18. My grandfather told him he could be unemployed at 18 or have a job at 16.
They guy, who had been out of work for months, wouldn't take it.

This reminds me of the same.

I don't feel any pity for these folks. Yes, people need an earnable income. But they have earned their way out of a job.

Um, yeah... totally outrageous! I have multiple college degrees and have ZERO job protection. My medical benefits are fair, but nothing close to the unions and I have no job bank to pay me 90% of my salary if I get let go from my job. I am highly skilled at what I do and don't make anywhere near $70/hr.

A neighbor of mine who is an Industrial Engineer for GM, has a masters degree and has worked with the compnay for 10 years, stated that most entry-level assembly line workers take home more $$$ each year than he does with their OT. By the way, he's salaried and has been required to work 50 hour weeks for the past 2 years. Is there anyone reading this that can justify this?

A relative of mine, retired auto-worker, takes home more money from his pension monthly than I earn working. His benefits are paid in full. Can anyone justify this?

A close friend who I went to school with, dropped out of HS his senior year, went to work at a local Ford plant... Last year (2006) he produced a W2 that stated his earnings as $137,700 some odd dollars. This friend, who I love dearly, laughs at me for "wasting my time in school" as he earns far more than I. He struggles with basic math and cannot spell to save his life. Can anyone justify this for me?

This industry MUST be allowed to fail. These unions MUST be disbanded. A major realignment is in order and the government's interference is preventing it. The quid pro quo that has been allowed to continue, with politicians receiving HUGE campaign contributions from these organizations in exchange for legislation favorable to the status quo must end. Money must be removed from the political equation or the politicians will continue to bankrupt this nation. Friends, I feel that social and civil unrest is knocking on the door. Be prepared.

I don't think any of the workers should have to take pay/benefit cuts. Why blame the workers? It's not their fault in the least and by blaming them and cutting wages you're not fixing the real problem. The banks that we gave the money to should be giving these companies loans from the TARP funds as well as the homeowners that are losing their houses.

Did you know that if they had given us, the tax payers, the money that they used to bailout these companies, each man, woman and child in the US would get more than $27,000? with that money I'm sure we could've fixed the economy , now nothing is being done with that money, it's gone, our government threw it away.

I'm absolutely disgusted by the boldness and carelessness of the government right now. I always believed in these conspiracies but for this to happen right before my eyes, I just don't know what to do. For once in my life I'm glad I'm poor and live in a PoS apartment, at least I don't have to go through losing my house and my life's savings and my job like the well-off people do.

The unions had their place. For decades business owners and managers basically predated on workers because workers had no way to stick up for themselves. Unfortunately, it seems the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

This may have been posted here before but check this short video out. This is what the unions are fighting:

Ford's Most Efficient Plant

I hate to burst your bubble but the UAW do not make 70$ an hour. Thats a a number people throw out to make us look bad. Hourly make about 30 $ with benefits. management starts out at about 60$ with bennies and a Pro E jockey working as a temp can make 80$ and hour. The SAP programmers make 100$ an hour. A welder at a nuke plant makes over 100$ an hour. The government help build the foreign companies plants here the least they could do is help out the American companies.

mikell

reply to post by kozmo


Thats exactly the problem with labour unions and other red flag type organisations...

They want "equality" of pay for menial workers to be paid the same rate as a skilled engineer, designer or accountant. Its pretty ridiculous when you consider that the latter are all professionals who have spent a large amount of time and money training to gain specialized knowledge.

GM deserves to fall; the unions deserve to be blasted for the ridiculous expectations that they have created. They could learn a huge number of lessons from Toyota about better labour control, better vehicles, better manufacturing practices, better quality controls and aftercare and better management in general!

reply to post by mikellmikell

Originally posted by mikellmikell
I hate to burst your bubble but the UAW do not make 70$ an hour. Thats a a number people throw out to make us look bad. Hourly make about 30 $ with benefits. management starts out at about 60$ with bennies and a Pro E jockey working as a temp can make 80$ and hour. The SAP programmers make 100$ an hour. A welder at a nuke plant makes over 100$ an hour. The government help build the foreign companies plants here the least they could do is help out the American companies.

mikell

We're talking salaries *and* benefits. According to the automakers themselves:

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

I talk to union guys just about every day about work and sitting on the bench. Amazing the attitude some of these guys have. A false sense of worth.

The union is part of the problem. I don't know if wage concessions would be enough to offset the other reasons for a dying industry. The automakers are also straddled with billions in pensions and rising health care cost from an aging workforce.

I think the UAW is grossly overpaid for unskilled workers and line workers. I'm okay with the wages for the skilled workers. Here's the rub, there are hundreds of unskilled workers for every skilled worker.

Off topic note - I'll even put a little perspective on wages for comparisons. I pay $85 and hour for union pipe fitters. Union plumbers go for $80. Electricians are $92 to $95 depending on the company I sub through. Sprinkler fitters are $105 an hour. I could get some better prices from some non-union shops, but some non-union companies charge even more. I find the union work is always acceptable to inspectors with the non-union shops sometimes not quite in compliance.

reply to post by Total Reality

Originally posted by Total Reality
I don't think any of the workers should have to take pay/benefit cuts. Why blame the workers? It's not their fault in the least and by blaming them and cutting wages you're not fixing the real problem. The banks that we gave the money to should be giving these companies loans from the TARP funds as well as the homeowners that are losing their houses.

Please. If your labor costs are $30/hr higher than your competitors, then that is a distinct disadvantage you are working under.

You cannot survive that unless you have an immensely better product, which Detroit does NOT.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Thanks 44, we're in agreement! To put this in greater perspective for the union supporters... Let us assume that the Big 3 cease to operate... Can you tell me for what line of work these people are qualified? What special skills do they possess that makes them any more valuable to a company than say, a burger flipper???

I am not demeaning an honest day's work from anyone. I am, however, pointing out the gross inequality of pay for autoworkers versus other skilled workers. Assembly line workers in other industries, non-union I should add, equal no more than about $15 to $20 per hour, TOPS! To add, I hear stories all of the time about these guys sleeping on the jo, playing cards in the breakroom for hours etc... However, they cannot be fired because of he unions.

If these folks want to earn $40 to $100 per hour, then they are going to need to develop skills that are in demand. Do you what a Pro/E designer makes that kind of money? Because so few people can do the work and do it well. Same with the SAP developer. It takes years and thousands of dollars in training and certification to to become proficient at SAP programming - they deserve it. However, turning a wrench... Hell, I could do that coming out of the womb!

reply to post by jsobecky


Great find! you are correct. The auto unions right now are being stubborn and not waveing, holding up the salvage of their own job. The odd part about this is that the unions are so used to getting their way, they are now the bad guys. But I am not sure that the governmnet will cave in just so the unions will get their demands.

This makes for an interesting standoff. Two of the biggest crooks around; the government and the mob. Ooops. did I say that out loud.

I'm not sure about the figures you've given, I've just seen a guy giving a news conference stating completely different figures and reasons.

But, I am in agreement, and I've said it many times, that I would rather be on half pay than be unemployed.
They should count themselves lucky that they still have an income while so many others don't.

Something that has really bugged me over the last few days...

These companies are in desperate financial crisis, the money is expected to see them through for a few months (I think I heard that). But how many vehicles are currently sitting in showrooms and forecourts and ready to be sold, but no one is buying?

This financial crisis is affecting the entire planet. Who is going to be out buying the cars already produced, let alone the vehicles they are going to continue producing?

This is already a completely failed industry, simply because sales are going to fall off a cliff if they haven't already.
This recession is expected to last at least a couple of years. So what good is it giving them billions, sending people back to work to manufacture cars that are not going to be sold? These companies are going to sink and these people are going to be made unemployed.

Is it simply about controlling the inevitable?
Do they figure that letting people go in stages, while the companies slowly die is going to be easier to manage?
And will the car companies even adhere to that process if they decide that this industry is dead.

These companies are going to sink, either in the next couple of months (if they don't give them the money) or in March/April (if they do).

So is it even worth the gamble that this staged collapse will help alleviate the potential stress on welfare?

Years ago people were saying the unions would kill GM; and we are now witnessing that happen. Anyone who blames Congress or the President is the kind of person the union prays on.

For those who would say I don't know what I am talking about
I have a relative who makes mid $100s working in a GM plant in Indiana. He is a floater (think that's what it's called) and does not have one particular job/work station. He relieves people who need to take breaks, etc. He is a lifer, started working at a local GM plant in his teens. I think even he is surprised by what he makes annually.

Let them declare BK, kill the union, hire management out from under Toyota to serve as management consultants. If you want to do this right, act like any other company would.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Please. If your labor costs are $30/hr higher than your competitors, then that is a distinct disadvantage you are working under.

You cannot survive that unless you have an immensely better product, which Detroit does NOT.

I still don't think that the workers should be the ones to sacrifice. The Unions speak for workers who can't speak for themselves, I don't believe anything should be done to workers' wages while people making the real money get bailouts and get to keep their bonuses and all that garbage.

The government just keeps on taking our money and not giving anything back.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Total Reality]

The workers don't actually earn that type of money.

That dollar amount includes funding the retirement programs for all the retired auto workers.

It is just tacked onto the hourly wage to give an idea of what it costs per worker.

reply to post by detachedindividual

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I'm not sure about the figures you've given, I've just seen a guy giving a news conference stating completely different figures and reasons.

I think the person you saw was Ron Gettelfinger, UAW president. He started off by blaming the Republicans, and never mentioned the fact that Harry Reid also voted against it.

reply to post by Total Reality


I agree that management is bloated and overpaid also.