Auto Unions Refuse to Take Pay, Benefit Cuts

Originally posted by Icarus Rising


We can play who's who in the zoo all night if you want. The fact is, the title of this thread is incorrect and misleading.

You are the one who is misleading!

gminsidenews

WASHINGTON AND TORONTO — A refusal by the United Auto Workers union to accept swift wage cuts scuttled a $14-billion bailout of the Detroit Three auto makers Thursday night, as General Motors was said to have hired legal and banking experts to consult on bankruptcy protection and Chrysler warned it was nearly out of cash.
Source

Originally posted by nixie_nox
My grandfather used to own a large construction company. He was looking for a crane operator. Now mind you this is in the early 70s. This guy who was a former union member wanted the job but would only accept 18$ an hour. My grandfather said he would only pay 16$. But the guy said he refused to work for less then 18. My grandfather told him he could be unemployed at 18 or have a job at 16.
They guy, who had been out of work for months, wouldn't take it.

This reminds me of the same.

I don't feel any pity for these folks. Yes, people need an earnable income. But they have earned their way out of a job.

yeah obviously...it's the workers making too much money that has caused this whole mess
and i think they should take pay cuts to save their jobs

and in five years...the workers are making too much money that has caused this mess
and i think they should take pay cuts to save their jobs

and in 15 years...it's the workers making too much money that has caused this mess
and i think they should take pay cuts to save their jobs.

Unions my friends have been the key to literally driving our dollars to China!
If we continue to be stubborn and not take notice that the high wages in North America are making us extinct as a producing people we will be doomed. I do believe in made in North America, but come on we have to also be competitive in the world market.

These are some wage facts I know from doing business in China
Unskilled Laborer $125 Per Month
College degree engineer; $588 Per month

No I do understand that they are a communist country and all but I see just looking south that Mexico is only slightly higher in wages. Why would we as North Americans push our dollars overseas when we have almost the equivelant of China in labor force right here at home? ITS BECAUSE WE VALUE OUR WORK HIGHER THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

I too took advantage of the Chinese workforce as the buyers in North America consistently want lower and lower prices. BUT I have made steps now to bring all that assembly work back to our soil and our countries as I know the reason why we grew so well before was due to the quality!

So should people take cuts in pay to save their jobs? YOU Betcha or you may lose them forever

reply to post by LiquidMirage


Just depends on which story you read, I guess.

Gettelfinger said Republicans were holding the union to a "double standard" and trying to applying an undue burden on their workers.

He questioned whether Republicans had an ulterior motive, but said the union was nevertheless willing to negotiate.

"Quite frankly, we wondered if we were just being set up," Gettelfinger said. "And I say that because there's no question the UAW has demonstrated leadership throughout this process, and there were some in the Senate who we felt resented that. "

source

reply to post by jimmyx


I like your post.

I can not imagine when people can justify the cuts on others people income because they "make too much".

If we keep cutting on wages, is going to be less taxable income, more recipients of welfare and the poverty level will keep increasing, at the end the nation will not even be able to afford to feed the unemployed, destitute and homeless.

Wait!!!!!!!!!! we already complain about giving to much to the poor!!!!!!!!

Yes I think that at the end this nation will be just turned into a nation of service workers, wait !!!!!!!!!!!!!! we got illegal immigrants to do those jobs already.

Many think that is ok to take away from workers while the CEOs reap millions on compensation packages and benefits.

But hey this America I guess everybody that makes less than the auto workers have the right to complain for their bad luck.

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by marg6043

 

marg, you're not saying anything that hasn't been said dozens of times here already. We all know that UAW benefits are much higher than Toyota's. I even cited it in my source.

ok smart guy..how much would you pay these people, and what benefits would you give them, if any at all. and while your at it, could you give me a rough estimate on what the actual living expences would be covered by this pay that you think should be paid.

example:
10 bucks an hour....1600 bucks gross a month before taxes
15 bucks an hour....2400 bucks gross a month before taxes

and i'm sure the republican congressmen would tak a pay cut, since they are recieving government money and these are tough times...oh wait ..they all get a 5% raise at the beginning of the year...how patriotic

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
You don't have to lecture me about tech. companies. I worked for one for 24 years, and was one of those that got screwed in the early 90's. I was also told they would pay retiree medical costs, but as a retiree, I now pay $1,200 a month for medical benefits for my wife and I.

I'm glad you think that they did the right thing, because as I see it, they turned America into the third world country that we now see it becoming. Perhaps in defending them you should also defend the fact that they are outsourcing most of their white collar jobs to India, Red China and a host of other nations that don't have labor laws.

Is that what you really want for America?

This sincerely amazes me, coming from you. I always had respect for your posts and the way you thought, even though I didn't always agree with you.

I speak the truth. The facts. I back them up. And I am invariably accused of defending one side or the other.

I related a small slice of American labor history. So because I did that, I'm defending "them" and I think they "did the right thing", eh?

But apparently you, and some others here, don't want to hear anything other than your own point of view. If it challenges your own notion of what is true, then you immediately turn the discussion into a personal attack.

You're the second person here who has made statements like that.

ATS is turning into a bunch of group-think, group-speak sheeple.

You can't handle the truth.

reply to post by marg6043


thanks... it's a race to the bottom and more and more people are starting to really feel it. the people making 100k to 150k think they are middle class, and have no idea how tough it NOW is, for people making even 15 dollars an hour. and can anyone imagine a congressmen trying to live on 15 bucks an hour. we wouldn't have 1 of them take the job, but for the rest of us it's just fine...and...15 bucks an hour out in the real world is not considered bad, what with all the jobs cuts, lay-offs and "restructering" i personally know people with 4 year degrees, who have a job for less then 15 bucks an hour...and now THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT LOSING THEIR JOBS!!!

reply to post by inthesticks

Originally posted by inthesticks

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by jsobecky

 

Sen. Dodd is on CNBC live right now saying you are wrong, jsobecky. He says the auto unions had agreed to compatability and comparibility in wages and benefits as part of the deal, but the GOP still wouldn't vote for the bridge loan. Then the White House starts saying they will use TARP funds to bail out the big three. Its a dog and pony show.

Imo, the GOP is using this crisis to break the UAW, to further erode the voice and standard of living of workers in this country, and you are down with them. There is an underlying agenda at work here, and you are engaged in furthering it.

Seems Dodd forgot to mention that 10 Republicans voted FOR the bailout, 4 Dems voted AGAINST and 4 Dems DIDN'T VOTE AT ALL. So, if the 4 Dems that voted AGAINST, and the 4 Dems that didn't vote at all, would have voted FOR the bailout, the Big 3 would have had their bailout. So, whose fault is it that the bailout didn't pass?

And guess which senator was not even present to vote (as usual)?

Barack Hussein Obama.:shk:

www.google.com...

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by LiquidMirage

 

Just depends on which story you read, I guess.

Gettelfinger said Republicans were holding the union to a "double standard" and trying to applying an undue burden on their workers.

He questioned whether Republicans had an ulterior motive, but said the union was nevertheless willing to negotiate.

"Quite frankly, we wondered if we were just being set up," Gettelfinger said. "And I say that because there's no question the UAW has demonstrated leadership throughout this process, and there were some in the Senate who we felt resented that. "

source

Gettelfinger is a lying crooked SOB that deserves to be swinging from his neck…along with his crooked SOB allies at the DNC. I live for the day when it happens. I just hope they sell tickets to it or at least televise it so I can kick back with a Heineken and a bowl of popcorn to enjoy the show.

The unions didn’t concede on a damn thing. I’ve worked and lived around unions my whole life so I know their games quite well. In fact, my grandfather was a big shot in the united steel workers union years ago and my uncle recently stepped down from years of being the president of the local steel workers union. I know how they are and I know they have always got their hands out but when it comes time to work…well, work is simply not a word in their vocabulary.

I can’t even begin to tell you just how many union guys I’ve seen sleeping on the job during afternoon/night shift or hiding somewhere in a closet or maintenance shack and watching movies on portable DVD players. Many of them even brag about it! It happens a lot and it’s the reason why countries like China are kicking our asses. Chinese workers are good little workers and after years of living in squalor they are laboring their way to a better and more prosperous life because they know handouts based upon the self assertion that they are entitled to it is simply not sustainable. Chinese workers are what U.S. worker used to be and people in this country better get their heads out of their asses real soon or it will be to late, if it isn’t already.

reply to post by jimmyx

Originally posted by jimmyx
yeah obviously...it's the workers making too much money that has caused this whole mess
and i think they should take pay cuts to save their jobs

Nice try at deflection.

Nobody is saying the UAW is the ENTIRE problem with Detroit. Management is just as guilty.

But to think or say that the autoworkers are innocent here is completely naive. And to think that they should not be part of a solution is also naive.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by unruly1
Unions my friends have been the key to literally driving our dollars to China!
If we continue to be stubborn and not take notice that the high wages in North America are making us extinct as a producing people we will be doomed. I do believe in made in North America, but come on we have to also be competitive in the world market.

These are some wage facts I know from doing business in China
Unskilled Laborer $125 Per Month
College degree engineer; $588 Per month

No I do understand that they are a communist country and all but I see just looking south that Mexico is only slightly higher in wages. Why would we as North Americans push our dollars overseas when we have almost the equivelant of China in labor force right here at home? ITS BECAUSE WE VALUE OUR WORK HIGHER THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

I too took advantage of the Chinese workforce as the buyers in North America consistently want lower and lower prices. BUT I have made steps now to bring all that assembly work back to our soil and our countries as I know the reason why we grew so well before was due to the quality!

So should people take cuts in pay to save their jobs? YOU Betcha or you may lose them forever

aahh yes COMPETITIVE IN THE WORLD MARKET...the mantra of big business

i guess you haven't noticed but our living standards are much higher then third world countries...you know like having sewers, roads, reliable power grids, schools, colleges, parks, reasonablely comfortable homes

i guess what you mean is that we people should adjust to living like they do in vietnam or india or china so we are COMPETITVE IN THE WORLD MARKET. what a brillaint business mind you have.

Sorry if this has already been said by some very smart ATS member, but I wonder if the executives would be willing to bring their salary, benefits and bonus structure more in-line with Asian automakers?

Elizabeth Warren, A Harvard economist, made a very good case for the cause of the the collapse of the middle class. Essentially, it's two-income families.

Too many people in the work-force puts downward pressure on wages, particularly hurting blue-collar, working class employees, but really ALL employees across the board. The literal and intrinsic expenses associated with two-incomes outweigh the wages and benefits. This is most clearly seen in the auto-industry.

If I find the link again I'll post it.

reply to post by Icarus Rising

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by jsobecky

 

I'm not baiting you, jsobecky, I'm calling it like I see it. You want to complain about it, go ahead.

My source on this is my eyes and ears and brain. I was listening to the CNBC interview with Sen Dodd live as I read your thread. Its plain as day to me. I didn't say you were a GOP psy-op plant, did I?

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Icarus Rising]

I don't need your permission to complain. It's not worth my time to battle the little fish.

Dodd isn't a member of the UAW. He doesn't speak for them. He's merely their bought and paid for shill.

The unions refused to negotiate until 2011. By then it will be too late.

I see that you only want to take a comment to the extreme with comments like that ....and yes I am quite brilliant in business.

So tell me why walmart is the most successful retailer in the world? then tell me that we are not losing our jobs in North America due to our high wages?

Problem >>> Solution thats the roadie way

reply to post by jimmyx

reply to post by jsobecky


Ah, but that is not the thrust of the thread, nor the jist of the title, is it? And what about our trade policy? Who is responsible for that? The work environment is set from the top down, not the bottom up.

What you have been implying is that the union and the workers are responsible for the big three needing a bailout, and also to blame for them not getting it. It simply isn't true. Handle that.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Icarus Rising]

I would refuse to take a pay cut too. Why should they? They have done nothing wrong!

I find it insanity that we are willing to shovel $800Billion untraceable US dollars into the bank accounts of dirty, greedy CEO's that caused the recession. Yet when the auto makers have a little bit of trouble making an honest living we say your getting paid too much? Cut your salaries? No you can't have a bailout? No, you must file for bankruptcy?

reply to post by Icarus Rising


I'm addressing one particular aspect of the problem with Detroit. If you want to moan about trade policy, start a thread on it. Don't piss all over this thread.

The auto Unions are not the problem here. But with that being said why not just let them all fail. Since when is it the governments jobs to pick winners and losers. The Senators who came out today and blamed the Unions disgust me. IF you want to vote against it because morally its wrong and constitutionally its wrong but to come out and say your arent because of the Unions is just crap. The unions are the last leg of American people who feel that an honest days work deserves an honest days pay.

Originally posted by rizla

Gone are the days of a good salary and a pension. And the funny thing is, you yourselves are attacking workers' rights because you don't have them.

And no one really notices. Pretty soon we will look to the government for everything. Jobs, pension, healthcare, housing, food.................