Auto Unions Refuse to Take Pay, Benefit Cuts

reply to post by Jkd Up


Of course the entire industry is feeling it. No argument there.

The question is, who will remain standing? And why?

reply to post by jsobecky


Sen. Dodd is on CNBC live right now saying you are wrong, jsobecky. He says the auto unions had agreed to compatability and comparibility in wages and benefits as part of the deal, but the GOP still wouldn't vote for the bridge loan. Then the White House starts saying they will use TARP funds to bail out the big three. Its a dog and pony show.

Imo, the GOP is using this crisis to break the UAW, to further erode the voice and standard of living of workers in this country, and you are down with them. There is an underlying agenda at work here, and you are engaged in furthering it.

reply to post by jsobecky


We don't know who is lying as my link said that Toyota is paying 25 (guess I was short for 5 dollars) an hour to their workers with lower benefits that the big three.

Now this link tells how deceiving Toyota is when it comes to their true agenda of no unionized force.

Toyota: Auto Industry Race to the Bottom

In the U.S., Toyota has set up non-union plants in the South – far from the unionized auto industry stronghold of the Midwest. Blunting support for unionization is Toyota’s practice of paying wages nearly on par with the U.S. auto companies (around $25 an hour in comparison with G.M.’s $26 to $28) – although with much lower benefits.

www.corpwatch.org...

still, the auto unions are very self centered and the workers are ruled by their own avarice. Sadly, the American dream has crumbled so far as to people like union workers willing to save themselves by screwing others. Almost all union workers are overpaid, and get too many time benefits for what they do in comparison so others in this country. As others have said, I would take a pay cut and accept other changes to allow the company to survive and to keep my job, while allowing others to gain jobs in the future. I feel that the Auto companies could solve this issue by telling all employees to report to work for a week without pay every second week. By this, people would all be earning less money, but at least enough to get buy while letting others have the chance as well

reply to post by Icarus Rising


I agree these goes deeper, (a conspiracy perhaps against the America worker?) Toyota like many other foreigners working in the US are doing a lot better with their human rights and slave force that they are able to get their hands on in Places like Burma and the philipines.

Almost a third of the assembly line workers at Toyota City are temporary employees who earn an average of $12.13 an hour. These 10,000 temps toil alongside permanent workers, who earn almost twice as much – $20.49 an hour including bonuses. The permanent workers also enjoy benefits including child subsidies, cheaper meals at the company cafeteria, and far greater job security. Temps are, well, temporary, hired month-to-month, laid off at will and not represented by a union.

This is in Japan, so they are not able to get away with human rights violation as much.

But when it comes to workers they bring from other countries the story is different.

Toyota’s foreign workers in Japan are second-class citizens. On arrival the guest workers’ passports are confiscated. During the first year as “trainees,” they are not covered by Japan’s labor or minimum wage laws. They work alongside Japanese workers, putting in the same long hours, but often earning less than half the minimum wage – as little as $2.76 an hour, or $479 a month. As guest workers, they are required to remain with the same employer – no matter how bad the working conditions – and to live in the company housing assigned to them – even though some are charged twice what their Japanese colleagues pay for comparable accommodations

www.corpwatch.org...

Is this the fate of the American worker brought to us by the death of American factories?

Toyota in America hire full time employees competing or at least competing with the Big Three, but once the big threes are gone, what is going to happen to the American workers seeking jobs in foreign owner car plants?

Toyota in order to save money will do what they do in Japan, hired only term workers at a minimum wage.

And who knows they will use immigrant workers to pay under the table 2.76 dollars an hour.

(sarcasm intended)



[edit on 12-12-2008 by marg6043]

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by Jkd Up

 

Of course the entire industry is feeling it. No argument there.

The question is, who will remain standing? And why?

Ford's best out of the three. They might be able to pull through it quickest. Why? Well, the monarchy that was Ford Motor Company woke up abot 2 years ago and started to turn things around. They still have baggage to jettison, but I think once Volvo's sold they will firm up a bit.

GM... Fortune magazine, Time and just about evey money magazine is saying their going under. I think they are right. GM will be extinct by mid this year.

Chrystler, I speculate will be bought by a third world consortium, but Jeep will maybe end up in Fiat's fleet.

reply to post by Icarus Rising

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by jsobecky

 

Sen. Dodd is on CNBC live right now saying you are wrong, jsobecky. He says the auto unions had agreed to compatability and comparibility in wages and benefits as part of the deal, but the GOP still wouldn't vote for the bridge loan. Then the White House starts saying they will use TARP funds to bail out the big three. Its a dog and pony show.

Imo, the GOP is using this crisis to break the UAW, to further erode the voice and standard of living of workers in this country, and you are down with them. There is an underlying agenda at work here, and you are engaged in furthering it.

Really? So Icarus Rising thinks that I am "down with" the GOP in furthering their "underlying agenda", eh?

And I'm supposed to take that seriously? Or even care what you think?

What you are doing is called baiting, and is against the TOC.

I gave sources for my posts. Where are yours?

reply to post by marg6043


marg, you're not saying anything that hasn't been said dozens of times here already. We all know that UAW benefits are much higher than Toyota's. I even cited it in my source.

reply to post by marg6043

We don't know who is lying as my link said that Toyota is paying 25 (guess I was short for 5 dollars) an hour to their workers with lower benefits that the big three.

Actually, Marg, no one is lying about those figures. It is just that each party is not showing the ENTIRE picture, as is usually the case. First of all, let's compare apples to apples.

Toyota's starting salary, EXCLUDING benefits, ranges from $16/hour to $19/hour, depending upon the plant and other factors such as experience.
The NEW UAW contract, as I posted above is between $14 and $16.23 an hour.

Now, as to AVERAGE salary. Here is the problem. Since the AVERAGE worker in US-based Japanese plants have worked here less time (since the plants are newer), their AVERAGE salaries will be lower than the AVERAGE salary of Big 3 workers. If the older workers retire at the Big 3, then the wage only portion of average salaries will be very comparable.

reply to post by jsobecky

OK, there are legacy costs involved. But there are also current contracts which can be renegotiated. And federal laws do not prevent it.

For example, when I started working in hi-tech, it was common practice for companies to offer retirement packages along with other benefits. And in many cases, health care was free (for singles) or very affordable. The companies picked up the slack.

Then, the computer world started evolving from mainframes, midframes, and mini's, to PC's. The profit margins plunged. Changes had to be made.

After the first round of layoffs, companies changed their pension plans into a 401K or IRA type of vehicle. All of a sudden, the employees was responsible for guaranteeing their nest eggs. Then health costs shifted from an employer burden to more of an employee burden.

Today, a pension benefit is uncommon.

You don't have to lecture me about tech. companies. I worked for one for 24 years, and was one of those that got screwed in the early 90's. I was also told they would pay retiree medical costs, but as a retiree, I now pay $1,200 a month for medical benefits for my wife and I.

I'm glad you think that they did the right thing, because as I see it, they turned America into the third world country that we now see it becoming. Perhaps in defending them you should also defend the fact that they are outsourcing most of their white collar jobs to India, Red China and a host of other nations that don't have labor laws.

Is that what you really want for America?

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


That is the problem that I see coming at the end of the deal, if the three die out, what we will have is another stagnation of wages and what I see as no competition against the foreign companies, this means lowering once more the standards of living in this nation.

Then when this nation becomes nothing more than a nation of welfare recipients.

That is the fate of America today.

Or perhaps we will do as the illegals just move oversea trying to find better jobs.

The irony.

$69.00 an hour in wages and benefits is insane for assembly line workers. The Senate did the right thing.

The Unions for all intents and purposes own the DNC they believe. I hope they are put in their place by all of this. One of the biggest scams going is that Unions are even allowed to buy politicians with their largess.

This gives me hope that sanity may be finally inserting itself into our Congress. With the DNC controlling the entire government now, I was concerned the Unions and others would just kick back and reap the rewards.

I think what is happening is that the Senators are being flooded with so much mail that they know their futures are at stake if they don't clean up this vote buying by the Unions and other donors.

I watched two UAW Workers interviewed a few days ago and when questioned about their pay, they acted like they did not know what their pay was (yeah sure :lol and when they finally gave a number, sort of, they conveniently forgot their benefits. They pretended it was a lie, but it was obvious they were dodging the question. What numbers they did give was obviously their take-home pay and that was even too high for an assembly line worker. When their pay is so high that even they are embarrassed to give the true numbers, you know something is very wrong.

Crooks running Chicago, the Union Bosses acting like Mob Bosses, its like a bad old Mob movie from the 1940's.

My current vehicle, built by these overpaid people is nearly new and the edges of the seats are coming apart, the bumper was visibly out line when new, the ball-joints were recalled and the overall craftsmanship is terrible. It is clear that the people who built it have no pride. At $69 an hour I would expect the best workers money can buy, but instead it is going to people without enough pride to even make sure the body seams are aligned.

reply to post by Blaine91555

$69.00 an hour in wages and benefits is insane for assembly line workers. The Senate did the right thing.

You obviously just dropped into the END of this thread, and never bothered reading the other posts which posted the numbers of the current contract negotiated by the UAW.

Go back to page 2 of this thread, and READ the posted facts, before you post garbage from the MSM.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by jsobecky

 

Sen. Dodd is on CNBC live right now saying you are wrong, jsobecky. He says the auto unions had agreed to compatability and comparibility in wages and benefits as part of the deal, but the GOP still wouldn't vote for the bridge loan. Then the White House starts saying they will use TARP funds to bail out the big three. Its a dog and pony show.

Imo, the GOP is using this crisis to break the UAW, to further erode the voice and standard of living of workers in this country, and you are down with them. There is an underlying agenda at work here, and you are engaged in furthering it.

Seems Dodd forgot to mention that 10 Republicans voted FOR the bailout, 4 Dems voted AGAINST and 4 Dems DIDN'T VOTE AT ALL. So, if the 4 Dems that voted AGAINST, and the 4 Dems that didn't vote at all, would have voted FOR the bailout, the Big 3 would have had their bailout. So, whose fault is it that the bailout didn't pass?

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I agree one 100% with you there. The industry should and will fail. Bailout or no bailout. The same guys that brough us this mess are the same ones making the plans for thier futures. They are bloated and basically gussied up dinosaurs from the late 1940's and 50's.

Its time to start Fresh IMHO.

Blame autoworkers rather than the legislators who have gotten the country into this mess. With a 10.6 trillion national debt aren't they the ones that are over paid ? Look at your own state legislators as well, are they taking pay cuts when your state is in trouble? The only reason non-union gets their money is based on what the industry standard was and set by unions. If not for them they'd be making minimum wage. You've forgotten the history of child labor and the company stores that use to exist besides other abuses that took place. Our country set higher standards for its workers and now outside influence is trying to tear that down by setting ourselves against one another.

Originally posted by inthesticks
I would also rather take a cut in pay than have no job at all.

Interesting to me is this. Toyota has a plant in San Antonio, they make the Tundra trucks. They are not union. Because the gas prices went sky high, the Tundra sales fell and the plant was closed for three months. The employees were still PAID their full salary. A couple of the production lines have reopened with a shorter work week. The workers on the lines that have not reopened yet are still being paid. Many of the Toyota employees have been interviewed on local news channels, before and since the closings, and every one of them have said they LOVE working for Toyota. That's it a great company and the employees are always treated fairly,

Seems like Toyota is doing something right, WITHOUT the unions. I think the Big 3 could take some lessons from Toyota.

You Sir are exactly right and I will give you a star for your astute observations.

What people, including this member, don't understand is that the Japanese auto companies in the U.S. are kicking American auto companies asses big time! Those same Japanese companies are not unionized while the Americans are. This really is a no-brainer! I say this; destroy the unions and make people work and pay them according to their worth. That will help to improve our economy in the longrun.

I've worked in unionized facilities several times in the past and I can say from experience that union people tend to be lazy and downright worthless while people in non-union plants are harder working and worth their salt.

reply to post by jsobecky


I'm not baiting you, jsobecky, I'm calling it like I see it. You want to complain about it, go ahead.

My source on this is my eyes and ears and brain. I was listening to the CNBC interview with Sen Dodd live as I read your thread. Its plain as day to me. I didn't say you were a GOP psy-op plant, did I?

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Icarus Rising]

reply to post by inthesticks


We can play who's who in the zoo all night if you want. The fact is, the title of this thread is incorrect and misleading.

Imo, our government is under the control of a cabal of global fascist elitists bent on breaking the back of the middle class, what's left of it anyway. If they bought off a few Southern Dems (I'm guessing) to get their way on this vote, what's the difference? The outcome is still the same.

Ok, Ok, Ok,

I have to say something to both sides of this argument.

First of all, to the ones crying the blues that "people shouldn't bash on the workers". You had the opportunity to speak up and take one for the team (the team being the North american economy, dolts!) You haven't needed the union scammers for at least 20 years. You are the most overpaid vs. skill level workers in this country because of them. Although there has been abysmal management abusing the bottom line for the same amount of time, You guys are a much larger portion of the total cost of the industry. You had the opportunity to go to your union and demand that they find an amenable solution that would keep the industry strong. You didn't. If you are out of work now it is your fault.

OTOH, the management of these companies have been abusing their status as protected entities for many years and allowing the quality and reliability of their products to suffer so they can skim some more for their bonuses. They too are disgustingly overpaid and have been for many years. They should have been on the paycut bandwagon as well for the sake of the company/industry. They are as much to blame as the line workers.

What this all comes down to in the end ladies and gents is the biggest single problem facing our collective economy is the inherent greed that has reached plague proportions here in North america. I have no problem with people wanting to better their stake in the world but at the same time, do you people not realize that it's a viscious cycle? You pay the line worker far too much (about 2x too much), it raises the cost to build of the car. The car then wholesales for more to the dealer, who then passes the cost on to the common consumer, who already lives beyond their means because they are told by the MSM that that's the norm. The car that could easily be built well for a sale price of say 17,000 is then built poorly (and they are) for a cost of 28,000. That's 7000 dollars a year (based on normal payment schedules) that a family doesn't have for feeding their kids, paying for medical care and decent education, etc.

As far gone as the economy is and is predicted to go, I would think that people would break the cycle of economic ignorance and get back to what matters. Work for less and learn to do more with it. I was recently a victim of the automotive industry crisis in the last few months (non-union parts plant) and have already recovered. I took a 5 dollar an hour pay cut to get a different job quick before there were none left, and am actually doing better because of it. I don't have more money but with some sensible budgeting we are not losing our car (not quite new but close and paid for in full, thank you), our housing, or our happiness. The new job is arranged so that me and the missus can actually see each other more often and for longer periods than we could before. We have found richness in this time that we didn't have when we had more money. Discover the riches you have already folks. If you put your family first and love who you have and what you do instead of the materialism we are all programmed for nowadays, you will be happier. Sell the stuff you have that you don't need (most have many times more than they need to be happy) and use the money to get out from under, if you are there. If you have something you're paying on that you can get out of clean, do it. If you have something that you are upside down on, ditch stuff you can to get back on top. This may seem a little simplistic, and perhaps it is, but i tell you it works. I made the transition fast enough that we didn't have to get to the ditching of stuff to get back where we needed to be, but we could have if necessary to maintain and felt no sting. You can too. If you break the chain of mandatory walmart junk buying, and overpaying for everything by just buying less of it, you will feel better. Trust me. It's the best thing you can do for your family and yourself.

HPSidecar