The Holiday That Foreshadowed Christ's Birth For Over 1000 Years

reply to post by nj2day

Originally posted by nj2day

Who said I was hostile toward all christians? Instead I explained how I'm hostile towards christianity... there's a difference.

You showed hostility towards individual Christians, and NOT the collective group when you said:

Originally posted by nj2day

can't be all that shocked really... I guess since christians are superior to all... they feel the need to have "invented" their own holidays...

Since Christians such as myself make NO claims of superiority, your argument is incredibly prejudiced against individual believers. And you can say that this comment wasn't aimed at all Christians, but in fact the way you typed it, it does come across as a blanket statement.

And as far as you contradicting yourself, I was comparing this quote to what you said at the top of page 2: "I don't blame the believers of the religion... I blame the religion itself... "

So if you blame the religion for the problem, why do you assume Christians feel that they are "superior to all" and therefore the cause of the problem?

Originally posted by nj2day
I was describing the holiday of Christmas as it is celebrated... which is celebrated in a pagan manner.... You choose to attack my choice of words instead of the ideas proposed?

Your choice of words determines my understanding of your point, as I cannot read your mind. I didn't attack, I was merely pointing out the mistake you made in making your point.

Originally posted by nj2day
The religious powers did indeed place them on the current dates with the intent of subverting pagan religions... this is a matter of fact. It was also felt that if they put holidays over currently existing pagan holidays... it would make it easier to convert the pagans to christianity.

Once again, I understand and agree. But apparently you can't see that I'm also of the belief that the Christian holiday celebrating Jesus' birth is also celebrated at the same time. And while I agree with you that the pagans/druids were screwed by the church, I personally feel that the organized church's early leaders also perverted the Christian holiday by placing it on the same day. Why do I believe this? Because the holiday of Christmas is no longer a purely Christian OR pagan holiday, but rather an evil hybrid driven by consumerism. The pagans/druids are in the same boat as many Christians, WE ALL feel like our respective beliefs have been compromised. And don't blame Christians for this, blame the original leaders who were evil and corrupt.

Originally posted by nj2day
The Romans in pagan times established December 25th as the day of celebration for their sun god... it was Constantine who decided to take that pagan holiday and make it a christian holiday...

Constantine was the leader of the Romans, AND the first Christian emperor. He wasn't a Roman Catholic Church member, but rather the precursor to the organized church, as he paved the way for the Roman Catholic Church's existence by legalizing Christianity. At any rate, I believe he is part of the problem, just like you.

Originally posted by nj2day
This doesn't make my point any less valid... or completely nullify the fact that pagans are constantly reminded how their beliefs were raped to produce this strange offspring of their original sacred holidays.

And my point is just as valid: Christians are seeing their beliefs being raped as well. Most Christians aren't aware that their holiday is a mixture of Christ and paganism. Those Christians who are aware need to let others know. We may not be able to change the date, because I imagine that's nearly impossible, but Christians can at least begin to weed the pagan symbology out of their own celebrations.

[edit on 12/12/2008 by Warrior of Light]

I'm only going to post the stuff you disagreed on... or on areas that I feel we still disagree... If you feel I need to respond to some of the other stuff... let me know and I will..

Originally posted by Warrior of Light
reply to post by nj2day

 

You showed hostility towards individual Christians, and NOT the collective group when you said:

Originally posted by nj2day

can't be all that shocked really... I guess since christians are superior to all... they feel the need to have "invented" their own holidays...

Since Christians such as myself make NO claims of superiority, your argument is incredibly prejudiced against individual believers. And you can say that this comment wasn't aimed at all Christians, but in fact the way you typed it, it does come across as a blanket statement.

ALL christians claim to be superior to non-christians... this is fact...

christians claim that they are in the right... and all others must be wrong...
christians claim that they will be rewarded with heaven... when others are doomed to hell
christians claim to have understanding beyond that a non-believer can have.
christians claim that others need to be "saved" and brought to their religion
christians (and jews)claim they are chosen by god.
christians claim that their savior died for them... and non-believers aren't deserving of the same attention.

how is this not feeling that christians are superior?

And as far as you contradicting yourself, I was comparing this quote to what you said at the top of page 2: "I don't blame the believers of the religion... I blame the religion itself... "

So if you blame the religion for the problem, why do you assume Christians feel that they are "superior to all" and therefore the cause of the problem?

I also stated that people should take the time to learn what religion does to the psyche... so that they could understand where these behaviors come from... including the superiority issue I stated above...

Your choice of words determines my understanding of your point, as I cannot read your mind. I didn't attack, I was merely pointing out the mistake you made in making your point.

If you re-read your statement regarding this... It comes across as demeaning, and downright sardonic. I fully understand that intonation is absent in written words, such as a forum, and will give you the benefit of doubt, and concede this point.

Constantine was the leader of the Romans, AND the first Christian emperor. He wasn't a Roman Catholic Church member, but rather the precursor to the organized church, as he paved the way for the Roman Catholic Church's existence by legalizing Christianity.

I am not limiting the scope of my statements to the Roman Catholic Church... when I say Christians, I am implying all people who believe that christ was the messiah...

At any rate, I believe he is part of the problem, just like you.

ooooh ouch... Unfortunately, if I'm part of the problem...does that make you part of the solution? Is this that superiority thing I mentioned coming out? or is this just pure ad hominem?

And my point is just as valid: Christians are seeing their beliefs being raped as well. Most Christians aren't aware that their holiday is a mixture of Christ and paganism. Those Christians who are aware need to let others know.

How am I part of the problem if I'm telling chrisitians the exact same thing? oooh I get it... this is a message that can only be delivered by a superior christian? and not a lowly atheist like myself?

We may not be able to change the date, because I imagine that's nearly impossible, but Christians can at least begin to weed the pagan symbology out of their own celebrations.

Why can't they? aren't they in control of when they celebrate? But will they go to hell if they don't celebrate when the Pope says they are supposed to?

again if you have a goal of removing pagan symbology from christmas celebrations... why does it matter if a christian... an Athiest... or a Pagan delivers this message?

reply to post by nj2day

Originally posted by nj2day

ALL christians claim to be superior to non-christians... this is fact...

christians claim that they are in the right... and all others must be wrong...
christians claim that they will be rewarded with heaven... when others are doomed to hell.... ETC....

how is this not feeling that christians are superior?

I could start an entirely new thread on this topic, so I will try to limit my response here. Any Christian who has read their Bible will know that the idea of "superiority" is nonsense. Your "facts" are a collection of half-truths and oversimplifications, and most likely the result of your coming into contact with some uneducated and unread Christians.

I am Christian, but how do I know I'm "right"? I DON'T. I believe in God through faith, but I'm aware that I cannot prove anything to you. It's not a matter of me being right, and you being wrong. It's a matter of me believing in something, and you believing something different. God gave us free will for a reason.

Who chooses who goes to Hell and Heaven? Well, I leave that up to God, and I believe he judges people's hearts. So who goes to Hell/Heaven is really none of my business, now is it? I can only live my life. And as far as understanding... who really understands anything? I don't claim to have all of the answers, I learn everyday. While some Christians try to "save", many of us simply follow the Bible. According to the Bible, Christians aren't called to convert, but rather to live in a manner that glorifies God. Christians who try to "save" are just as annoying to you as they are to me.

And finally, Christ died as much for you as He did for me, according to the Bible I read. So no, I don't feel "superior" in any way. That's absolutely NOT what I have taken from my time studying the Bible.

Originally posted by nj2day

If you re-read your statement regarding this... It comes across as demeaning, and downright sardonic. I fully understand that intonation is absent in written words, such as a forum, and will give you the benefit of doubt, and concede this point.

I apologize if my statement came across that way. I'll try to watch what I type more closely.

Originally posted by nj2day

I am not limiting the scope of my statements to the Roman Catholic Church... when I say Christians, I am implying all people who believe that christ was the messiah...

But I am trying to point out to you that the Christmas holiday celebrating Christ's birth is SOLELY the result of decisions made by church leaders a LONG time ago. I disagree with MANY of the decisions of these leaders (particularly the Roman Catholic Church) which go against the Bible. I don't believe, as many do, that the pagans/druids are the only victims. REAL Christians (as opposed to brainwashed church sheep who only listen to the priest and never read the Bible for themselves) are also victimized because we do not agree with the organized church, yet we cannot separate from the pagan symbols which come around every Christmas. And now the people are so fixated on Santa and gifts the birth of Christ is irrelevant EVEN TO MANY CHRISTIANS.

Originally posted by nj2day

ooooh ouch... Unfortunately, if I'm part of the problem...does that make you part of the solution? Is this that superiority thing I mentioned coming out? or is this just pure ad hominem?

Uhhhh... What?
OK, I had to read that again.

I said: "At any rate, I believe he is part of the problem, just like you."

What I meant to say, but didn't fully express: "At any rate, I believe he is part of the problem, just like you BELIEVE." (Or at least I assume that's what you believe, based on what you've said.)

Sorry you mistook what I said, but I wasn't saying that you're the problem.

(Cont'd.)

reply to post by nj2day

Originally posted by nj2day

How am I part of the problem if I'm telling chrisitians the exact same thing? oooh I get it... this is a message that can only be delivered by a superior christian? and not a lowly atheist like myself?

Obviously there was a misunderstanding. You're not part of the problem. You should speak the truth, if you feel so compelled. As I've said a bunch of times now: I agree, the church leaders chose to sabotage the pagans/druids celebratory dates. It doesn't make me happy, but neither does 90% of what those leaders did. They are not representatives of TRUE Christianity according to the Bible. They have screwed Christianity over as well, like an "inside job". The church needs to own up, make amends with the pagans/druids, let them have their day, we'll have our day, and we can all be free to practice our own beliefs. But the organized church is flawed, and it only makes ALL Christians look bad. When in reality, Christians such as myself are not a threat to others. The Church as an institution IS a threat.

I often use the same example you have in this thread: The choice of church leaders to pick dates and symbols which are not based on the Bible or history, but rather the subversion of pagan celebrations is ANTI-Christian. YES, it was aimed at pagans. But I believe it was also aimed at Christians. The choice of dates has given us a MODERN SOCIETAL acceptance of limiting the importance of Christ in favor of a blended "Christmas" which is not what Christmas should be for CHRISTIANS. If you choose to ignore Christ's birth, that's fine. But Christians ARE celebrating His birth, and are unfortunately blinded to the fact that they are also celebrating:

A) Pagan/druid traditions

B) CONSUMERISM

Originally posted by nj2day

Why can't they? aren't they in control of when they celebrate? But will they go to hell if they don't celebrate when the Pope says they are supposed to?

again if you have a goal of removing pagan symbology from christmas celebrations... why does it matter if a christian... an Athiest... or a Pagan delivers this message?

You really have to ask why they can't change Christmas? I mean, I wish it was possible, but I just don't see it happening. It's a lot easier said than done. I can celebrate with my family on any day I choose, but I don't speak for millions of people. In reality, secular and Christian celebrations are now tied into the same consumer-driven celebration of material goods which is ruining our society. I have wondered how pagans/druids feel about THAT.

The Pope IS THE PROBLEM! That's what I'm trying to say to you throughout this thread. According to the Catholic Church's written constitution, THE POPE IS EQUAL TO JESUS. This is in direct violation of the Bible. The Catholic Church is corrupt and evil. The Pope doesn't choose who goes to Hell, God does. The Pope will face God as we all do, IMO, as a mere mortal meeting his Creator.

Christians, Atheists, and Pagans should ALL deliver the message, TOGETHER. If people are aware, change is possible. Any true Christian who hears the truths about the traditions of their organized religious institution needs to question the leaders, and read their Bible.

[edit on 12/12/2008 by Warrior of Light]

Originally posted by nj2day
However, you are forgetting that the DRUIDS are the ones who invented the christmas tree, the wreath, and the importance of mistletoe. In fact, the name Druid means "Oak Men". Which shows exactly how important the trees were to their practice.

Pardon me if I couldn't link anymore but I've read one theory that DRUIDS were the practitioners of the old biblical principles(Old testament).

That they have been suppressed, persecuted, and lies about them spread over the ages by the emerging religious movement at the time. They were the Wise Men.

Since 'Christianity' have many times been suspected of borrowing from traditions and culture, Christmas may not be an exception.

reply to post by ahnggk


Druids were considered the "wise men" of the celts... but were not the wise men of the birth story...

forgive me if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying...

There is no possible way that the druids were practicioners of the old testament... 1st... they are from a culture that hadn't yet come in contact with the middle east...

2nd... druids have a strict rules and beliefs that are completely not compatable with the judeo-christian beliefs... trust me... after I left the church, I joined a Druidic Order...

I would be more than happy to explain the beliefs of the order I was a member of for about 4 years (no longer practice, but damn, the druids have some great ideas...) It really isn't what most people think... I should start a new thread for that, but I would definitely take the time to explain... Understanding differences is the key to finding similarities...

Similarities unite... differences divide if you catch my drift.

reply to post by Warrior of Light


hrm...

It would appear that we almost whole heartedly agree, with the exception of some matters of semantics.

I will again concede. The point you made about christians feeling superior, If you honestly believe all you have said, means my words were harsh... you are among the first I have met without this feeling of superiority... In the future, I will amend my statements to "most christians" instead of referring to christians in an all inclusive sense.

If you read through some of my other threads... I do have a deep respect for people who chose to look at their religions... and ask questions... It doesn't matter to me if the answers you receive lead you to a theistic, or an atheistic world view... but the fact you asked the questions... mean you have recognized the weaknesses in what you are presented... and are seeking real truth...

"Question Authority" is my personal motto... which you seem to understand....

It is just unfortunate that these matters of semantics and misunderstandings led to us getting off on the wrong foot.

I apologize for any percieved offense against you personally... But I'm sure you understand how difficult choice of words become when talking about delicate subjects as personal beliefs, as most of the time, the connotation of the words is dependent on what you personally believe...

The best way I can describe what I mean by this, is try describing what color red is, to someone who believes that red is the color of the sky...

reply to post by nj2day


Yes, we certainly do agree on a lot. I respect your point of view, as I'm sure you came to it through asking questions, reading, researching, and critical thinking. Even if we differ in our beliefs, I admire those who are willing to think for themselves.

No offense taken by me, as I understand just how hard it is to discuss these kinds of issues on a forum. I appreciate the fact that you replied with thoughtful answers. I like to be challenged, to have my beliefs challenged. If you can't defend your beliefs, how strong are they? Maybe we can debate a little more in the future, and we can both try to be more careful how we say things.

I'm going to add you as a friend, and I'll check out those other threads you mentioned. Also, in your reply to ahnggk I noticed you were considering starting a new thread on the beliefs of the druid order you were a member of. Personally, I'd be interested in reading that.

I sincerely hope that your interactions with Christians has not, and will not, sway your opinions. I hope you meet more thoughtful Christians, because they do exist.

I've met ignorant Christians, Jews, and Atheists in my lifetime. No one's perfect, although sometimes people like to think they are. Right now there are just a lot of Christians who are brainwashed, and refuse to think for themselves. If they just opened their Bibles more often, and talked to people other than their Christian cliques, they might see that they are only receiving a small portion of the truth from leaders. This is why, despite having multiple family members who are pastors, I am not comfortable going to church. If I can find a church I agree with, I'll reconsider. But I really feel sorry for people who only have negative experiences with Christians. I understand why people get fed up.

As you said to ahnggk: "Understanding differences is the key to finding similarities... Similarities unite... differences divide if you catch my drift."

I couldn't agree more.

reply to post by nj2day


yeah i found that out 4 years ago, but is that going to stop me from celebrating Christmas, nope! I will still celebrate christmas! geez do you guys have anything better to do then to try and ruin Christmas for everyone? Just because you all hate the holiday, doesn't mean everyone else does. Yeah I celebrate Yule too, because i just like celebrating certain holidays this month, and it's fun! everyone needs to lighten up. there is too much crap in the world, why not have a little fun in life!!

reply to post by newagent89


Not to bash Christianity, but you should watch zeitgeist at www.zeitgeistmovie.com

The entire documentary, if you havn't already seen it, will blow your mind. Government conspiracies along with spiritual stuff, the second one is also out now.

Either way, the first 40 minutes, you should watch. Talks about Paganism and Christianity.

reply to post by nj2day


"christians claim that they are in the right... and all others must be wrong...
christians claim that they will be rewarded with heaven... when others are doomed to hell
christians claim to have understanding beyond that a non-believer can have.
christians claim that others need to be "saved" and brought to their religion
christians (and jews)claim they are chosen by god.
christians claim that their savior died for them... and non-believers aren't deserving of the same attention. "

woah dude, none of this is fact. Have you been watching that Richard Dawkins TV special or something? This is making hasty generalizations to the max.

Christians do not believe that all other religions are doomed to hell!

That's foolish outdated thinking. Many who call themselves Christians are doomed to Hell and many who call themselves something else are doomed to Hell. Jesus, however, made it clear that whatever one did for someone else, they also did for Him. When it comes to people outside, unless they with full knowledge and consent reject Him and his teachings and goodness itself for that matter they do not offend Him. There are some groups whose teachings seem to be based on the same principles but are truly in denial of what is right. Conversely, there are Christians who go to Church and hear the Word but are caught up in life and themselves, and are choked, never bearing fruit.
The whole thing about hyper-evangelism does not apply to most Christians. While we are all called to spread the gospels, we are also called to understand human psychology when it comes to these things. Shoving one's religion down another's throat does not help the other person and bring them into a relationship with God. It only scares them into submission. Evangilization often comes from example and being willing to talk about your faith (to encourage discussion) but never in a fear tactic/agro manner. Most converts today converted because they knew someone and that person was a role model for them. Through imitation and inspiration, they too become Christian.

As for being chosen by God, yes the Jews are God's chosen people. He revealed Himself to them first. They are the children of the covenant. But reading the Old Testament lets one know that their relationship with Him has not been rosy. Their ancient failures and turnings back to God are a model of humanity today. Christians are not the Choosen Ones. They are those from anywhere in the world who worship and accept the Trinity and the messages of the Gospel.

What the Hell is with this last point??? You think Jesus died just to save the Christians? No. Christians are those people who ACCEPT that Jesus died for them. JESUS DIED FOR ALL MANKIND. not just those who accept Him. The whole world does bad things and thus the whole world is not pleasing to the Father. However, Jesus came in and took that all away, destroying eternal death and gave all people the option of eternal life.

The only reason Catholics might say that they are more enlightened about the matter is that, in a human sense, they have the most complex and thought out logical/theological backing for understanding the magnitude of this occurrence. That does not mean that, in a spiritual sense, someone is not of a higher awareness of Him.

Also, Just because a Christian claims to know Christ better than a non-believer does not always make him closer to the Kingdom than a non-believer. Same thing if a Native American feels closer to the Great Spirit but comes before their god in an unworthy manner. Same thing if a Scandinavian traditional believer claims that they are closer to Odin so that they may gain prestige among their peers. They are all fruitless, withering and dying. Though I do think that all religions are perfectly allowed to say that they are the most right. That is how a faith grows. Someone outside sees that another faith makes the most sense to them. They identify with it and it agrees with them. They join and they meet like-minded people and their earlier beliefs flourish.

reply to post by nj2day


Yep, this is better than the other post:

"Throughout history, you can be sure that if a holiday is popular with the masses, it will still be celebrated, in some form or another. In the past, these holidays were celebrated only in a religious context, but after the Industrial Revolution, when the world became more and more secular, celebrating strictly religious holidays fell out of vogue. Saints' days no longer held the celebratory power they held before. Instead, holidays became more secular and more commercialized."

When it comes to Saints as differentiated from a pantheon of gods: yes, saint veneration may have originally stemmed from pantheonic traditions but the meaning of such veneration has little to do with pagan practices of all sorts. The concept of a patron Saint is one that intercedes, prays, on your behalf in some special matter. The Saint may have had a special connection to something related to that during their life (escalators!!???...staircases/automations) and thus reflecting on their lives while in prayer with them may have more of an illuminatory impact on the person still alive. They have no special powers other than that they are dead and in a state of eternal Grace and have seen the Beatific Vision. There are over 10,000 of them in my faith. They are not made up by the Church but rather recognized. And yes, there are textbooks elaborating on the theology behind that aspect of my faith.
Do not worry about textbook recommendations. I've been through one or two courses that had this kind of stuff in the curriculum. Studying the spread of culture and how cultures interact when two collide. It is all very interesting. I have already said that this sort of thing happens and that it is not suppression, but rather evolution. Change happens. Luckily, in my religion's case, the big changes were that we stopped Crusading and killing innocents in the name of our God, the pope was no longer in charge of a bunch of papal states and power-hungry, and Vatican 2 happened in the 1960s.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by newagent89]

Originally posted by MandM
Most Christians believe that Christmas is the holiday that is most associated with the birth of Jesus. But did you know that the word "Christmas" is not in the Bible?

Of course they didn't do it, and it was outlawed in America for a long time too.

Christmas comes from two words and the Catholic Constantine Pagan Church still does this everyday.

Christos - Christ, Jesus, Messiah, Yeshua, Savior

Mass - sacrifice, kill, ritual murder

So the ritual of Christmas the Catholics practice everyday in their Communion service is actually a Ritual Murder of the Savior..

Don't believe me? Show me one Catholic cross that doesn't have Jesus on it. They like him on that cross, all the Protestant Churches have a cros without the Savior as HE IS RISEN!

I know this is going to piss off the Catholics, but the truth hurts sometimes, it is nevertheless TRUTH.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal

Originally posted by MandM
Most Christians believe that Christmas is the holiday that is most associated with the birth of Jesus. But did you know that the word "Christmas" is not in the Bible?

Of course they didn't do it, and it was outlawed in America for a long time too.

Christmas comes from two words and the Catholic Constantine Pagan Church still does this everyday.

Christos - Christ, Jesus, Messiah, Yeshua, Savior

Mass - sacrifice, kill, ritual murder

So the ritual of Christmas the Catholics practice everyday in their Communion service is actually a Ritual Murder of the Savior..

Don't believe me? Show me one Catholic cross that doesn't have Jesus on it. They like him on that cross, all the Protestant Churches have a cros without the Savior as HE IS RISEN!

I know this is going to piss off the Catholics, but the truth hurts sometimes, it is nevertheless TRUTH.

This is not the truth and it is hard to call any sort of religion the truth for certain. It is a belief not a scientific truth. Religious faith is not falsifiable. As Pilate asked Jesus, "What is Truth?" The only metaphysical truth that I believe in is that of the Trinity and His relationship with us.

We Catholics don't 'get off' to Jesus on the Cross. Anyone who thinks that is sick or wrong. We honor Jesus' sacrifice at the cross to save all mankind. It was in that sacrifice of Himself that he saved you of your sins.

As for all Catholic Crosses having Jesus on them: No. All Catholic crucifixes have Jesus on them. All Catholic Resurrectifixes have Jesus arisen shrugging off the Cross. The Cross is just wood and a reminder without Jesus associated with it. There are tons of Catholic Crosses with no Christ on them. Many Catholics wear them around their neck. Each Easter we hang a purple robe about an empty cross to show that Jesus has arisen. But to dissociate what Christ did at the Cross is to disrespect Him. Each year Catholics venerate the Cross and what it reminds us of. There is no Jesus on the Cross on that day. My church has a resurrected Jesus without any Cross and He is the focal point.

We as Catholics, when it comes to spreading the news are called to preach the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ. All three are massively important though the third is the one that merits the most rejoicing.

Do you think all Catholic Churches leave Jesus dead on the Cross and tell the people to look at Mary as the Mediator between God and Man even though any good Catholic could tell you this does not line up because of the book of Timothy? What is with this anti-Catholic bashing?!

Do you think at the Eucharist we think that we are rehanging Jesus on the Cross? Sounds like Jack Chick talking. And Mass does not mean sacrifice. The sacrifice of the Mass is bread and wine given to God as a sign of faith. Sacrifice in latin is "piaculum" or "devoveo". "kill" is "iuguolo" or "caedo".

The word "Mass" does not come from words meaning to kill or sacrifice. That is a lie or a misconception. The word "mass" comes from the conclusion of Mass in Latin: "Ite, missa est" ("Go, the dismissal is made") The term means to dispense or go forth. It has to do with the fact that what we learn in Church is not done when the service is over. We are called to go out and preach to the nations. Tell the good news and be an example of Christ's message at all times. That is what Mass means. At the beginning of Mass, many priest begin with: "let us continue our prayer..." Mass is never over. The service is simply an organized period of brotherhood, high faith, and communion that Catholics are called to.

Many Catholics know the entire prayer of the Mass and Eucharist even the things the priest whispers. The Eucharist is not a murdering of Christ. It is a Sacrament where we experience Christ in a special way through the ritual of the Last Supper. "This Is My Body which will be given up for you; This Is My Blood the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me." Many left him earlier when he implied the literalness of this teaching. The Eucharist is a memory of Christ's humility and offering on the Cross, not a reenactment. The reenactment (not like a play, just a focus) around Holy Week when we read the Passion narative. A time of sorrow and hope followed by a period of great joy.

Some say that the priest thinks he is is ripping Jesus out of heaven. Wrong. The priest is humble and the Eucharistic prayer is a sign of his and the congregation's faith to enter into communion with the incarnation of Christ. To contemplate with Him and thank Him in a special way for what He did. A sign of assent, a sign of faith. Yes we can pray to Him in heaven and we are encouraged to do that constantly. But, like the covenant of the Jews, this new covenant is sacred, and especially close to our hearts.

Do you think Catholics do not value the Resurrection? It is the greatest day of our year when Jesus rose conquering death. Who the heck has been indoctrinating you on what Catholics do and do not do? The internet? Little tracts on doorsteps? Fiery sermons from books? I hope not. What you seem to think is fact is fiction. This is where the hate between religions comes from: ignorance.

Please, do not tell me to open my eyes. My eyes are wide open and I know my faith.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by newagent89]

reply to post by theindependentjournal


oh boy, is this going to degenerate into a Prodistant Vs. Catholic type thing?

Might you keep in mind that if the catholics are "doing it wrong", your beliefs branched off from the catholic church... Unless you're into certain forms of Orthodoxy.

Honestly, and I mean no offense to anyone, but this whole Prod Vs Cath thing thats been going on for several hundred years... to an outside observer seems completely absurd.

To an uninterested third party, such as myself... it seems like arguing over which lane to drive in on the interstate...

The definition of mass is actually "a sequence of prayers constituting the Christian Eucharistic rite"... Not sacrifice or Murder... Even the Etymology is different than you suggest...

here's the etymology of the word from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

"Eucharistic service," O.E. mæsse, from V.L. *messa "eucharistic service," lit. "dismissal," from L.L. missa "dismissal," fem. pp. of mittere "to let go, send," from concluding words of the service, Ite, missa est, "Go, (the prayer) has been sent," or "Go, it is the dismissal."

Your comments on Catholics are starting to sound like hate-filled rhetoric.

reply to post by nj2day


Yep, my last post I could not help and was inevitable. However, I think that you should try a post on Druidism but wait for a more opportune time like at the solstice when it will get more attention. I am interested in hearing about it from a personal perspective.

It amasious me that in this day and age that most people donot research their beliefs. All the time argueing over church theology. The sciptures are the life of the end less arguement. The letter kills and the sprit is life.
When cristian get over the own dogma , maybe they will understand. Most do not relize that there are 30000 denominations. All of this because they cannot agree. Even if christ where to apeer they would rejet him. I learned a long time ago that the first temple that the father created was us.The devine seed within, As long as you look at other temples you will never see the father or jesus.No church or faith can exsiet with out us. look within and you will find and know truth.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by theindependentjournal

 

oh boy, is this going to degenerate into a Prodistant Vs. Catholic type thing?

Might you keep in mind that if the catholics are "doing it wrong", your beliefs branched off from the catholic church... Unless you're into certain forms of Orthodoxy.

Honestly, and I mean no offense to anyone, but this whole Prod Vs Cath thing thats been going on for several hundred years... to an outside observer seems completely absurd.

To an uninterested third party, such as myself... it seems like arguing over which lane to drive in on the interstate...

The definition of mass is actually "a sequence of prayers constituting the Christian Eucharistic rite"... Not sacrifice or Murder... Even the Etymology is different than you suggest...

here's the etymology of the word from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

"Eucharistic service," O.E. mæsse, from V.L. *messa "eucharistic service," lit. "dismissal," from L.L. missa "dismissal," fem. pp. of mittere "to let go, send," from concluding words of the service, Ite, missa est, "Go, (the prayer) has been sent," or "Go, it is the dismissal."

Your comments on Catholics are starting to sound like hate-filled rhetoric.

Actually there are some very serious ideological differences between Catholicism and the Protestant denominations; none of which are relevant to this thread. It is no where near as simple as your analogy of a person cruising in the hammer lane when he should be in the right lane.

I will take issue with these statements however (see below in green).



"ALL christians claim to be superior to non-christians... this is fact...

Your choice of the word "claim" is not an accurate description, nor is the word "superior". See below.....


christians claim that they are in the right... and all others must be wrong...

Actually the Bible tells us that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. A Christian knows THE only vehicle for admittance to Heaven is through faith in Christ. So it is no "claim". It is written so. A person of faith can only deduce from that - that no other faith can get one into Heaven


christians claim that they will be rewarded with heaven... when others are doomed to hell

This is true in essence, but there is no "claim" here. The Bible tells us that Jesus has prepared a place for His followers. Couple this with the first bullet above.



christians claim to have understanding beyond that a non-believer can have.

Well actually this should be true in a sense as long as it does not come across as sounding arrogant from a believer...."A peace that passes all understanding" I believe the saying is. Too many "Christians" come across that way. Some are very judgmental and condescending. It's sad really because it turns folks off. I've seen it and experienced it. The only thing I can say to that is that I firmly believe God will punish them for the number of souls whose hearts were hardened against the Gospel for their actions, and subsequently lost.


christians claim that others need to be "saved" and brought to their religion

Again this is no "claim". The Bible tells us that ALL persons must be saved by the grace of God through His son Jesus to enter into Heaven.



christians (and jews)claim they are chosen by god.

Christians are not God's chosen people. The Hebrews are. Christians are NOT chosen by God. Christians CHOOSE God. And because of that they have secured a place in Heaven.



christians claim that their savior died for them... and non-believers aren't deserving of the same attention.

Not true in the least. The Bible states that Christ died for ALL men (and women). It is up to each individual to decide to become a believer. One can be born into Christianity, but one cannot be born a Christian.

how is this not feeling that christians are superior? "
See above please.


You may have had some serious issues with someone professing Christianity. But if you do an objective reading of Christ's teachings, you'll see that the "claims" are not those of Christians, but those of the Gospel.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Hugues de Payens] colors didnt work....sorry

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Hugues de Payens]

reply to post by nj2day


My faith comes from no Religion and if it did it wouldn't be a protestant or catholic one. Well maybe 7th day Adventist as I keep the 6th day Sabbath. But I know my Savior is risen and I know what the Bible says. And I know Christ did not Rise on a Easter Sunday Morning as that is PAGAN and an abomination to GOD, so he says.

And Catholics do think what I said, it's part of their religion, ask a Catholic if the Wine and Wafer are the actual body of Christ and the blood. Catholic teaching, Dogma and Papal Decrees declare it so. As well with the fact that they hang him on the cross every week in CELEBRATION of HIS DEATH. We are to celebrate HIS Rising on the third day. That's another thing in Catholicism besides changing the Calendar so that Passover didn't fall on Easter they say he went to the cross on Friday and rose on Sunday, where is he third NIGHT? It clearly states 3 days and 3 nights in the grave...

Edit - I don't want this to seem like I am attacking Catholics themselves, I am only stating known facts of the Dogma of the RELIGION of the Catholics, this does not mean that Catholics follow it hook line and sinker or that Catholics can't go to heaven I did NOT say anything like that, so please don't take my words wrongly I am not attacking your faith just Catholic teaching that is against God's word. And don't feel bad I haven't found a church yet that I agree with on all things and I am over 40 so yours is not the only misguided Church. It is the only one that sits on seven hills and the only one that claims that it can change the Law, Time and Bible and Precepts of Christ And it is the only one directly descended from Roman Empire...

[edit on 12/12/2008 by theindependentjournal]

Originally posted by MandM
Most Christians believe that Christmas is the holiday that is most associated with the birth of Jesus. But did you know that the word "Christmas" is not in the Bible? Did you know that there is nothing about December 25th in the Scriptures? Did you also know that Christians did not begin celebrating "Christmas" until the 4th century?

The truth is that God did institute a holiday which foreshadowed the circumstances around the birth of Jesus Christ and had His people celebrate that holiday for over 1000 years before Jesus ever came.

During that holiday God had His people build humble temporary shelters and live in them for a week to foreshadow exactly how His Son would come into the world. In essence, God's people were acting out a "manger scene" each year for over 1000 years, prophetically anticipating what was to come:

shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com...

Most "Christians" are ignorant of their spiritual heritage, which explains why they are so easily mislead.