The Holiday That Foreshadowed Christ's Birth For Over 1000 Years

reply to post by Hugues de Payens


I don't blame the believers of the religion... I blame the religion itself...

I just can't sit idly by while the believers go on believing that their religion is without flaw... and is completely innocent or even victimized in every regard...

It drives me nuts that religion has such a grip on minds, that people put on the blinders and unknowingly ignore history, science and the like...

I have the utmost respect for someone who finds their own path outside the church... whether that path is a theistic or an atheistic belief...

I don't think the believers should ever be blamed for the number that religion does on their psyche. Instead... everyone should understand what goes on psychologically, and perhaps even take pity on those poor individuals who have fallen into the "trap".

Personal beliefs can make someone a better person...

however, Religion kills...

[edit on 11-12-2008 by nj2day]

I'm with ya 100% on that one.

Im flagging this.

Great OP!

More people should be aware of tidbits like this. I feel that if more people were aware of things like this, we would live in a more enlightened world.

Not that its very profound or life changing or anything, but that a LACK of knowledge in these areas leads to a spiritual 'zombie state of affairs'.

ya know?

Here is the text in question:

Zechariah 14
The LORD Comes and Reigns
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea [b and half to the western sea, [c] in summer and in winter.

9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD [d] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite [e] in the house of the LORD Almighty.

No where does this say that it forshadows Jesus's coming. It referes to the "LORD," as God is called through the Old Testement.

The closest thing is the mention of the Dark day... but remember that the darkess when Jesus was on the cross was very temporary, certainly not a whole day, and not in the evening as the above text suggest:

(matthew) 45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land.

I do not think there is any relation at all. I think this is another example of modern Christians grasping at OT straws to legitimize the beleif in Jesus's crucifixion.

[edit on 11-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply to post by nj2day


So your problem is with the organized religion, not the believers? You blame the church for choosing the date, and not the people who choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on a particular day? You realize that it was the corrupt and evil Catholic Church which chose the date which is now popularly known as "Christmas"? So why the hostility towards ALL Christians then?

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by MandM

 

unfortunately, christmas, and many other x-tian holidays have absolutely nothing to do with the christian religion.

Christmas is a pagan holiday which originally celebrated the winter solstice... the druids decorated trees, hung mistletoe...

The religious powers in hisotry were unable to stop the pagans from celebrating their holidays... so they decided to place their holidays over the same times in an "if you can't beat em, join em" tactic.

Most holidays celebrated now days draw their roots from pagan times.

This quote is partially nonsensical. If "Christmas" is a pagan holiday then I guess it's not "CHRIST"mas, now is it? It is a celebration of winter solstice, not "CHRIST". The druids decorated trees and hung mistletoe, they didn't recognize Christ. I have no problem with groups, religious or not, celebrating on any day they please.

But you're right when you refer to the "religious powers". However, this doesn't mean that the leaders of the Catholic Church were trying to subvert the pagan religions. Perhaps those evil scumbags (who have corrupted the Bible's message and ignored it outright) were aware of what they were doing, but were in fact corrupting Christianity.

Now we have a day (which the Catholic Church chose) not only recognized as Christ's birthday by Christians, but also a mixture of pagan and consumer symbols which put Christ in the background.

You see, even Christians are unhappy with the way Christmas is celebrated today, with the focus on Santa and gifts, rather than Jesus. I don't really care which day Christmas is celebrated on, as long as Christians are given the opportunity and the right to celebrate.

And if the pagans, druids, or anyone else wants to celebrate their special days, they're free to do so. I don't oppose their rights, even if the organized religion which hijacked MY beliefs (AND the pagan celebrations) chose to do so a LONG time before I was born.

Originally posted by nj2day
Christianities holidays are only attempts to eradicate other religions in the past.... Unless you are implying that it is a mere coincidence that All the christian holidays overlap pagan holidays, that use the exact same imagery and symbols as the old pagan holidays...

Are you saying that when Christians celebrate Christmas TODAY, they are ONLY trying to "eradicate other religions"? If not, I'd rephrase that quote if I were you.

Originally posted by nj2day
hehe,

can't be all that shocked really... I guess since christians are superior to all... they feel the need to have "invented" their own holidays...

I'm not in the least surprised someone invented this theory to make their beliefs seem more important than the pagans... Think of what theories they invent to support the 6000 yr old earth delusion.

Wow, self-righteous much? Not only is this statement making a false assumption, it also discriminates against those Christians who disagree with the group of Christians you're referring to. You've lost my respect, despite what you said at the top of page 2. Contradict yourself much?

If I told you that I don't have a Christmas tree, wreaths, mistletoe, or other pagan symbols, and I celebrate Christmas with the story of Christ's birth in mind, would it mean you're wrong to assume that I am celebrating a pagan tradition? YES.

reply to post by Warrior of Light


You fail to recognize the main point of my postings... well, you sort of acknowledge it...

The holidays were established on the dates they are on, in an attempt to eradicate other faiths.

Here's a link supporting this on a university website: www.tulane.edu...

I have not said that christians shouldn't be allowed to practice their religions... I pointed out the fact that the dates they are celebrated on are the result of christianity's attempts to wipe out other faiths.

Even if you are celebrating the holidays in a more "pure" way than the others you disagree with, it does not change the fact that the days that have been chosen were used to eradicate other beliefs.

There is no conceivable way you can, with conviction, state that this is not the intent of the holidays being placed on the dates they are on currently...

Now, back to the topic, this means that the OP is incorrect, and that these holidays DO NOT foreshadow crap... Instead, the holiday was placed on the dates they are on to eliminate the heathens.

Now, consider since the holidays were "created" for the purpose of ursurping other faith, and there are still Pagans celebrating these holidays in their own right... Individuals who celebrate these holidays are unwitting participants in the church's grand scheme...

These "christian" holidays are still a proverbial slap in the face to pagans. If you don't believe me... go ahead and visit a Wiccan or Druid forum...

It would be akin to someone deciding to turn christmas into a massive satanic holiday... You'd be a bit peeved I imagine...

especially if they steal your religious symbols... the manger for instance... and instead, re-define what it stands for... (suppose the cradle is actually an alter, and a baby is being offered for sacrifice?).

I’m surprised that no one has brought this up yet. Here’s the definitive work on the subject: The Two Babylon’s by Alexander Hislop.

www.biblebelievers.com...

The theories I have shown seem to state that the Christians were using the 25th of December as Christmas while they were still being persecuted and that it had nothing to do with the solstice but rather with an old Jewish tradition concerning prophets. Also, the Christians were hated in their early years and there is no 'playing victim' there. They had to adopt some customs in order to blend in but had secret customs, like that of the Eucharist and that of the Ichthys and many others. If you think that the persecutions were not what they were, open your eyes.

If the altar analogy will not satisfy, how about the fact that different groups worship a higher power? One worshiped a higher power before the other. And no, one cannot call the the Holy Trinity of Christianity three Gods, this is heretical. They are three persons, one being.

The Zoroastrians also believe in one god in some ways but they are from the early first millennium, whereas the Abrahamic faith is from around the late second millennium. I will admit that the Catholic religion was influenced a ton by the Jewish faith. Also, early Judaism was intermingled with Canaanite gods, though it is uncertain why a one God developed. Because it went against the common polytheistic beliefs of the day, it would be difficult to grab the 'masses'.

I also will not defend those in the Church who persecuted and killed the innocent and deceived the people. Many of the "Christian" emperors and even some of the popes were not at all the best of people. However, within the context of the Catholic belief system , those men were never truly part of Christ's Church. Blaming my faith for what goes on in the world is offensive though don't bother apologizing because that is the nature of these forums. It is only a personal attack if one calls out the person specifically. That faith is a part of me, though. The men responsible for the evil perpetrated through the Church did not do so according to the precepts of the Faith and by disobeying the law of Christ and doing things their way, they separated themselves from Him.

As for the Druids, I and many knowledgeable Christians will know and admit that many of the Romantic aspects of Christmas are stemmed from the Druids but we use the Fir instead of the Oak. This however is not suppression but comes from old legends with pagan connections. Same with mistletoe. It's connections to Christmas comes from Traditions held onto in Scandinavian countries. What goes on in the region of origin may rub off in some ways. However, what a symbol means may change. A Christian's grandfather living at a house after the family has converted wants a tree ceremony. The tradition perpetuates itself but the meaning changes and the purpose changes and, aside from the physical tree itself, the whole point changes. Natural process. The wreath stems from the symbology of the circle. Much older than the Druids. Were the Druids stealing an idea in order to suppress? No. Can that happen? Yes.

Also, do not call out the basic symbol of my faith: the crucifix. Crosses are extremely common symbols and do not belong to any one group. They can symbolize all sorts of things. I do not resent the Celts or the Native Americans, or the Egyptians or anyone who used or still use a cross in religion. I am sure that many groups who have used a cross as a symbol have ousted others throughout all of time.

Faiths have always asserted themselves over others (not always through violence. Just saying: "we're better!"

However, the Christian Cross is a symbol of torture, like you said. But you made it out to be a bad thing, straw-manning it as nothing more than a torture device. It reminds us of how Jesus died: a common, painful, and humiliating way to die especially if the person being killed was well known. We center on the cross as a central symbol because it was on the Cross that the laws that govern the natural world allowed the Body of Christ to die and to save the world from its sins. It is central that one know that Christ had the option to come down from the Cross but He chose not to. That conscious act of will and the taking on of all the evil in the world is what Christians remember looking at the Cross.

Tradition is a very important word when it comes to topics like these.

reply to post by nj2day


Did you even read my last post? Because you sure did a great job of ignoring my points. I read all of your posts entirely, and I know what you're saying. I'm just looking at things from a different perspective, one that is neither church-going religious fundamentalist, nor self-righteous atheist. Perhaps my comments are just too much for you to handle, since I'm not attacking your beliefs, just offering a different opinion.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by Warrior of Light

 

The holidays were established on the dates they are on, in an attempt to eradicate other faiths.

Right. And who established them? The Catholic Church hierarchy who were and still are, in my opinion, evil and corrupt and not representative of mine and many other Christians' beliefs. In other words, which I hope you grasp this time, the church chose dates which they knew would conflict with pagan/druid celebrations. BUT this not only put pagan days at risk of being forgotten in the past, it is also putting Christianity at risk of being forgotten now - As Christmas is hardly a celebration of Christ these days, even for "Christians".

Whereas you seem to believe some evil scum who chose dates hundreds of years ago speak for ALL Christians today because they were running the institution; I am saying that Christians today are celebrating pagan rituals alongside Christ's birth BECAUSE of the evil decision to choose a date which was already used by pagans/druids. We're both blaming the church leaders, only I'm blaming them for what CHRISTmas has become, AS WELL AS the pagan dates. Get it?

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by Warrior of Light

 

I have not said that christians shouldn't be allowed to practice their religions... I pointed out the fact that the dates they are celebrated on are the result of christianity's attempts to wipe out other faiths.

Right. And I never accused you of saying "christians shouldn't be allowed to practice their religions." Nor did I disagree with you about your point on dates, and which celebrations came first. I'm not sure why you're posting this as a reply to me, but again, you should re-read my last post.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by Warrior of Light

 

Even if you are celebrating the holidays in a more "pure" way than the others you disagree with, it does not change the fact that the days that have been chosen were used to eradicate other beliefs.

There is no conceivable way you can, with conviction, state that this is not the intent of the holidays being placed on the dates they are on currently...

Once again, this does not address what I posted, and I didn't disagree with these points in my last post. I already said that the Catholic leaders chose those dates, and were aware of the pagan celebrations. Those leaders don't speak for me. Honestly, if you re-read my last post you'll see that my point does not disagree with your point.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by Warrior of Light

 

Now, consider since the holidays were "created" for the purpose of ursurping other faith, and there are still Pagans celebrating these holidays in their own right... Individuals who celebrate these holidays are unwitting participants in the church's grand scheme...

It would be akin to someone deciding to turn christmas into a massive satanic holiday... You'd be a bit peeved I imagine...

I AGREE. You're right, I am peeved. MY beliefs were usurped

reply to post by resistor


Hislop? Oh no!

Seriously, this is like bringing out the Graves or Massey list. This is covered in Apologetics 101. Not a convincing work at all. Just hateful and ignorant.

From external source:

Although scholarship has shown the picture presented by Hislop to be absurd and based on an exceedingly poor understanding of historical Babylon and its religion, his book remains popular among some fundamentalist Christians.[4]

The book's thesis has also featured prominently in the conspiracy theories of racist groups such as The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord[5] and other conspiracy theorists.[6]

Although extensively footnoted, giving the impression of reliability, many historians and commentators (in particular Ralph Woodrow) have noted that there are numerous misconceptions, fabrications and grave factual errors in the document, and that this book follows the line of thought of works like: Martin Luther - On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), Titus Oates - An Exact Discovery of the Mystery of Iniquity as it is now in Practice amongst the Jesuits (1679), Conyers Middleton - Letter from Rome (1729).

Woodrow also shows how Hislop's creative numerology (which he describes as no more than mere superstition) could be used to make almost any name 'add up' to the mark of the beast, including the name "The Rev Alexander Hislop." Woodrow reclaims (from supposed pagan origins) candles and lamps (which are used by Jews in the Old Testament), he also defends the practice of anointing with oil "...anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." (James 5:14, 15 & Mat 6:13). Woodrow demonstrates the faulty logic that claims a Church steeple is a phallic symbol and the tower of Babel. According to Herodotus 425 B.C. Babel was a ziggurat shape, looking nothing like a steeple. (pg 28)

While seeking to condemn the paganism of Roman Catholicism, Hislop produced his own myths. Hislop theorized that Nimrod, Adonis, Apollo, Attes, Ball-zebub, Bacchus, Cupid, Dagon, Hercules, Januis, Linus, Lucifer, Mars, Merodach, Thithra, Moloch, Narcissus, Oannes, Oden, Orion, Osiris, Pluto, Saturn, Teitan, Typhon, Vulcan, Wotan, and Zoroaster were all one and the same. By mixing myths, Hislop supposed that Semiramis was the wife of Nimrod and was the same as Aphrodite, Artemis, Astarte, Aurora, Bellona, Ceres, Diana, Easter, Irene, Iris, Juno, Mylitta, Proserpine, Rhea, Venus, and Vesta.

************************************

I am amused when people see patterns where there are none and fill in the rest for themselves.

Honestly people, folks like Jack Chick endorse this book.

As for Christmas for Catholics: It is a celebration that is ALL about Christ's birth. We get ready for it nearly a month in advanced but are to keep it in mind our whole lives through. However, it is not the same as the celebration of Christ's resurrection. People that call our institution a Whore have been deluded by hate speech and misunderstanding. Too much internet, too many convincing speakers, too little sense, and too little time to understand all of it. I personally do not think any religion that embraces basic human rights is evil or Babylon. I do not think they are the best ways to go, from a theological standpoint, but there is nothing wrong with being Hindu and loving your neighbor.

[edit on 11-12-2008 by newagent89]

reply to post by newagent89


www.noelnoelnoel.com... has a brief history of how Dec 25th became Christmas...

It would seem, that the "Christ Mass" was not nailed down to december 25th... (nor was it a celebration of the birth... instead was just a day of reverence set aside for jesus).

I fail to see how this could possibly have been determined to be the actual day of the celebration of the birth... when the original "Christ Mass" was nothing of the sort, and wasn't held on specific dates...

Add that to the fact that the Roman Emperor Lucius Domitius Aurelianus, set the date of December 25th as a day of celebration for the god Oriens... and you have yourself a pagan celebration on December 25th specifically...

Originally posted by Warrior of Light
reply to post by nj2day

 

Did you even read my last post? Because you sure did a great job of ignoring my points.

I did read your last post. and like i stated... you misunderstood the purpose of my posts... and I re-explalined my position.

If you agree, like you say you do, great! then why the personal attacks?

If you disagree, than fine...

I do think I did a slight courtesy by posting this way, instead of explaining point by point why you misunderstood my posts...

Apparently you understand now, and agree fully!



[edit on 11-12-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by Warrior of Light
reply to post by nj2day

 

Did you even read my last post? Because you sure did a great job of ignoring my points.

I did read your last post. and like i stated... you misunderstood the purpose of my posts... and I re-explalined my position.

If you agree, like you say you do, great! then why the personal attacks?

If you disagree, than fine...

I do think I did a slight courtesy by posting this way, instead of explaining point by point why you misunderstood my posts...

Apparently you understand now, and agree fully!



[edit on 11-12-2008 by nj2day]

Haha... You can't be serious... You ignore my points, and then you tell me I'm ignoring yours. Instead of pointlessly re-explaining your points (which I understand), why don't you read my post and tell me where I'm wrong?

You can see EXACTLY what I'm replying to, and yet you try manipulate my words to make it seem as if I agree with ALL of your points, and not just that one particular quote.

C'mon, this is like talking to a 2-year-old. If you won't acknowledge my points with thought, then don't expect people to take you seriously. And "personal attacks"? Is that what you call someone questioning your opinions? PLEASE, tell me where I attacked you personally.

I read this entire thread, I don't agree with the OP, and I've understood everything you've said. Is understanding the same as agreeing to you, as you've just said? HAHA... sorry, but that's just sad.

The fact that you have ignored my points, misrepresented my points, and then manipulated my last point proves you have very little interest in what I have to say, and refuse to tell me where I'm wrong. All you could take from what I said is that I "agree fully". RIIIIIIIGHT...........

Originally posted by Warrior of Light
reply to post by nj2day

 

So your problem is with the organized religion, not the believers? You blame the church for choosing the date, and not the people who choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on a particular day? You realize that it was the corrupt and evil Catholic Church which chose the date which is now popularly known as "Christmas"? So why the hostility towards ALL Christians then?

Who said I was hostile toward all christians? Instead I explained how I'm hostile towards christianity... there's a difference.

This quote is partially nonsensical. If "Christmas" is a pagan holiday then I guess it's not "CHRIST"mas, now is it? It is a celebration of winter solstice, not "CHRIST". The druids decorated trees and hung mistletoe, they didn't recognize Christ. I have no problem with groups, religious or not, celebrating on any day they please.

I was describing the holiday of Christmas as it is celebrated... which is celebrated in a pagan manner.... You choose to attack my choice of words instead of the ideas proposed?

But you're right when you refer to the "religious powers". However, this doesn't mean that the leaders of the Catholic Church were trying to subvert the pagan religions. Perhaps those evil scumbags (who have corrupted the Bible's message and ignored it outright) were aware of what they were doing, but were in fact corrupting Christianity.

The religious powers did indeed place them on the current dates with the intent of subverting pagan religions... this is a matter of fact. It was also felt that if they put holidays over currently existing pagan holidays... it would make it easier to convert the pagans to christianity.

Now we have a day (which the Catholic Church chose) not only recognized as Christ's birthday by Christians, but also a mixture of pagan and consumer symbols which put Christ in the background.

The Romans in pagan times established December 25th as the day of celebration for their sun god... it was Constantine who decided to take that pagan holiday and make it a christian holiday...

You see, even Christians are unhappy with the way Christmas is celebrated today, with the focus on Santa and gifts, rather than Jesus. I don't really care which day Christmas is celebrated on, as long as Christians are given the opportunity and the right to celebrate.

I could care less if some christians are unhappy with the way it's celebrated. It does not nullify the fact that it is celebrated in a pagan manner, and called a christian holiday. If you don't care when Christmas is celebrated, I'd suggest shooting for late summer... this is when most biblical scholors believe the true birth takes place.

And if the pagans, druids, or anyone else wants to celebrate their special days, they're free to do so.

And they will! however, it doesn't make the pill any easier to swallow.

I don't oppose their rights, even if the organized religion which hijacked MY beliefs (AND the pagan celebrations) chose to do so a LONG time before I was born.

This doesn't make my point any less valid... or completely nullify the fact that pagans are constantly reminded how their beliefs were raped to produce this strange offspring of their original sacred holidays.

Are you saying that when Christians celebrate Christmas TODAY, they are ONLY trying to "eradicate other religions"? If not, I'd rephrase that quote if I were you.

Now-a-days, people who celebrate in the traditional sense and call it a christian holiday, are only unknowingly following the plan the church put forth centuries ago. So yes... they are continuing the marginalization of the pagan beliefs... Since pagans still exist... well, you know where its going.

Wow, self-righteous much? Not only is this statement making a false assumption, it also discriminates against those Christians who disagree with the group of Christians you're referring to.

I did not say that all christians hold this belief... instead I used the example to explain why I can believe some of these wacked out theories come into existence.

Contradict yourself much?

show me 2 quotes in contradiction with each other?

If I told you that I don't have a Christmas tree, wreaths, mistletoe, or other pagan symbols, and I celebrate Christmas with the story of Christ's birth in mind, would it mean you're wrong to assume that I am celebrating a pagan tradition? YES.

I never accused you of celebrating a pagan tradition. Instead I showed how the dates of the holidays were intentionally placed by earlier powers to eradicate opposing faiths.

If you don't celebrate x-mas on December 25th and according to the traditions, then no, you are not guilty of celebrating pagan tradition. Instead you are just guilty of unknowingly becoming a pawn of the original religious powers, who sought to eradicate the pagans.

Does this satisfy? are you done now?




[edit on 11-12-2008 by nj2day]

reply to post by nj2day


I read that page and though it is a nice page, it is wrong about Sol Invictus coming out in the middle of Saturnalia. It occurs two days after Saturnalia is over. I have already talked about the Christian Christmas appearing before Sol Invictus. My theory is based upon the research of His Holiness while he was a cardinal. Your response was based off a website: mymerrychristmas.com. I do not want to personally downplay its caliber but I think a premier theologian and historian is more reputable (all "rottweiler" names aside).

reply to post by newagent89


what of the page I linked off of a university website?

Europe wasn't the only area where "pagan" traditions were adopted and changed by the Church

www.tulane.edu...

I used that site as a general overview... If you would like more in depth and reputable sources... I can post those as well, but most of them are textbooks and research books that you can purchase if you like.

reply to post by nj2day

Most holidays celebrated now days draw their roots from pagan times

So, what's your REAL point?
Just about everything that we have today can be traced back to what you call "pagan" times or cultures.
Our weekend barbecues can be traced back to the pagans who roasted pigs or Mastodons, or whatever roamed the earth tens of thousands of years ago. All of civilization builds upon previous civilizations, and religious CUSTOMS are no different. Does that make religions irrelevant? Well, I ask you, is our atomic nuclear physics irrelevant, because it traces back to the ideas of Democritus, several thousand years ago? Should we stop barbecuing hamburgers and hot dogs because those pagan cavemen barbecued meat?

Get real. You have a hangup with religion. Get over it. If you don't want to believe, that's your business, but stop your tirade and your attacks on those who wish to believe. What gives YOU the right to say what OTHERS should or shouldn't believe? That is arrogance in the extreme.

The meaning has been lost in more ways than one.
The latest being when it became extremely commercialized.

Yeah, there may be no direct connection between Christ and the Christmas holiday like we've been led to believe all these years but the Holiday Season makes some people do things for others less fortunate.
... what's wrong with that?

As long as the peoples' intentions are in the right place and no harm comes out of it, why slam it?

Why deprive little children of the fun they can experience on Christmas Day?

Maybe that's the ironic meaning of Christmas after all.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


My point is that the holidays were specifically designated to fall on certain dates, on around certain times of the year, in an attempt to marginalize pagan beliefs, and eradicate the "competition"...

The OP states that these holidays were celebrated 1000 years before jesus came along...

I stated they've been around since the neolithic era, possibly longer, and have absolutely nothing to do with christ.

I have not stated that these holidays should cease to be celebrated... I stated that the OP is incorrect... and have defended my position since.

reply to post by Alxandro


If that was pointed at me, I haven't slammed anything...

Instead I propose the idea that the OP is wrong, and explain why... Then I am assaulted as being someone hellbent on destroying christmas, and get forced to defend my position...

there's no harm in christmas being celebrated however you celebrated it... But, like you suggested, there is no real connection between jesus and christmas...

Instead the idea of "christmas" is pagan... perhaps even as far back as the stone age.

christians hijacked the holiday early in their religion....

This doesn't mean I hate christmas, or that I want to see it abolished... Instead I'm slightly amused by how the religious reacted to the suggestion that their precious holiday isn't quite what they've been told...

sigh... Guess I should don my flame suit again...

anyway, your post hits close to my point... Star 4 U.