Teacher tells 7 year-olds Santa's Fake.

Originally posted by farflungheroe
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

"I really don't see the difference between God and Jesus. "

Then you probably can't see the difference between Caesar and Roman Empire he Represented.

Life must seem so confusing for you.

Keep in mind I believe in Santa... I don't get too bothered with the details. It's the bigger picture that matters for me. Why would I pray to Jesus if he wasn't God?

reply to post by HunkaHunka


About Debating online;

Even when you win you are still a loser.

You seem determined to win; not even common sense or reason can stop you.

Good luck. I hope you win.

Originally posted by farflungheroe
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

About Debating online;

Even when you win you are still a loser.

You seem determined to win; not even common sense or reason can stop you.

Good luck. I hope you win.

The only thing I'm debating is whether we should respect the subjective mythos of others or not.

My personal beliefs have no baring on that at all. Other than I believe we should respect the beliefs of ALL or NONE. It's as simple as that.

So ulimately you can say that I believe that Belief of anykind is equal to belief of any other kind. Anyone who assumes their mythos trumps another is simply deluded.

And the teacher was wrong because of that.


Christianity even spells this out plainly in Romans 14:14

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Keep in mind I believe in Santa... I don't get too bothered with the details. It's the bigger picture that matters for me. Why would I pray to Jesus if he wasn't God?

So where does Santa live? Where did he come from? Has he existed forever or was he created somehow? (This is sarcasm approaching curiosity. I would really like to know what you think.)

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Totakeke]

All in all.. the lying of parents to convince their children that a being exists called "Santa"... results eventually in shock, betrayal, hurt and distrust.

That's what it does.

It TEACHES children that their parents lie to them, and it engrains a subconscious imprint of distrust.

It's just what happens.


So .. what we do now is contemplate and debate the trade-off value of:

all those years of falsely hyped cheer and "magic" because of the lie..

vs.. that engrained idea that your closest loved ones lie to you, and you had to find out about them lying to you through someone else (usually).


so does it pay off?

sure.. this one "shock" of revelation that the being doesn't exist.. doesn't CAUSE kids to become disfunctional.
but it's just one more grain in the mound of lies and distrust.

And when they're young.. they may not remember that heartbreak..
but it directs their consciousness about everything else in life from that point onward.
in a specific direction


of distrust.


dont come replying with "yaaa but i found out and I'm okaaaay"
i'm not saying that's not so.

I'm saying what if we lived in a world where we DIDN'T have to find out from someone else that are parents lie to us about make believe creatures, and we DIDN'T have to go through that shock and betrayal experience...

would the world overall be different.. if we didn't do THAT.. then what else might we NOT do to each other...
cascading effect...

-

Originally posted by Totakeke

Keep in mind I believe in Santa... I don't get too bothered with the details. It's the bigger picture that matters for me. Why would I pray to Jesus if he wasn't God?

So where does Santa live? Where did he come from? Has he existed forever or was he created somehow?

Ok let me break this down for you.


Jesus Lives in my heart.

Santa lives in "the void" Which is why he is seen with the trappings of a cold environment.

And Umbly Grumbly, which is a wizard bear who follows me, lives in the walls. Quick story about Umbly Grumbly and why he is real. When I was in preschool, a teacher punished me for something I didn't do. I said "Umbly Grumbly is going to kill your dog!" When she got home, her dog had been ran over. Now that's proof enough for me that Umbly Grumbly is NOT to be messed with.


Both Jesus and Umbly Grumbly have come to me in my dreams. Santa hasn't though... so you *could* be right about him.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Ok let me break this down for you. Jesus Lives in my heart. Santa lives in "the void" Which is why he is seen with the trappings of a cold environment. And Umbly Grumbly, which is a wizard bear who follows me, lives in the walls. Quick story about Umbly Grumbly and why he is real. When I was in preschool, a teacher punished me for something I didn't do. I said "Umbly Grumbly is going to kill your dog!" When she got home, her dog had been ran over. Now that's proof enough for me that Umbly Grumbly is NOT to be messed with.

I assume (if this isn't sarcastic, it's so wonderfully difficult to tell on the internet) that you're saying Santa lives in your heart? That he's real if you believe in him? Because it's sounding just like one of those Christmas movies where Santa doesn't actually exist, but that he exists in your heart.

And as for "Umbly Grumbly," isn't it possible that the dog getting run over is just a coincidence? Ironically coincidences happen fairly often.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Totakeke]

reply to post by prevenge


The world you are describing sounds nice. I used to live there.

Sadly, we have been overrun by godless communists who aren't happy unless they are attacking those of us that harbour any sort of beliefs not proven by their dogma.

Santa Claus is bad for the Body Politick, ergo no more Santa.

Originally posted by Totakeke

Ok let me break this down for you. Jesus Lives in my heart. Santa lives in "the void" Which is why he is seen with the trappings of a cold environment. And Umbly Grumbly, which is a wizard bear who follows me, lives in the walls. Quick story about Umbly Grumbly and why he is real. When I was in preschool, a teacher punished me for something I didn't do. I said "Umbly Grumbly is going to kill your dog!" When she got home, her dog had been ran over. Now that's proof enough for me that Umbly Grumbly is NOT to be messed with.

I assume (if this isn't sarcastic, it's so wonderfully difficult to tell on the internet) that you're saying Santa lives in your heart? That he's real if you believe in him?

And as for "Umbly Grumbly," isn't it possible that the dog getting run over is just a coincidence? Ironically coincidences happen fairly often.

Well if the Umbly Grumbly incident occured while I was an adult, I might have believed it was a coincidence, but it happened as a child when I believed everything was possible. I also believe in God primarily because of what was taught to me as a child.

To be painfully honest. I have a very magical mind. But I also have a very analytical mind. And the only way to allow the two to co-exist is for them to agree that everything I believe is a halftruth to begin with because it was acquired through my senses which only detect small slivers of the spectrums in which they are aware.

This leads me to an understanding that all of these myths are handles which our minds use to navigate the universe of our consciousness.

The handles though don't actually have to be objectively true to have subjective impact. Ultimately the only thing that matters to me is the subjective experience. it is my soul, as it is anything I experience consciously as well as subconsciously.

For this reason I try to keep my mind happy and stay away from anger. This works for me. Sometimes I approach God as abstract laws of Emergence, other times when I'm emotionally distraught, I might need a cosmic friend and so I project An avatar on the Universe and have a conversation.

Once I had a deep conversation with a wooden statue of St Bernard (the guy not the dog). And he gave me lots of good advice. That was at Colgate Seminary in Rochester.

I'm very sane, don't get me wrong, I just really enjoy my life and as I mentioned before find all of these belief systems as different models of our subjective experiences. They teach me how to navigate the things that exist in me like anger, hate, love, desire, and fear.

But none of them require me to believe in them objectively. neither do any of them require me to refute them objectively. To me, the objective reality doesn't really matter.

I mean even the people in my life... I only interact with them through the veil of what I project on them from myself. It's the whole "other mind modeling" that our brains do. But I still love the people in my family even though Their objective reality is sooo different from my interpretation of them.

I do the same thing to the Universe... I project what I believe it to be upon it. I just switch that up a whole lot.

And, to bring it full circle, I think it was very rude for the Teacher, an Adult, to lash out at the children like that.

Because as Paul states in Romans 14:14 We should respect the beliefs of our brothers because to them, whatever they believe, is actually true.

And with that, I am going to bed.

I have enjoyed our chat, and hope you took my sarcasm only as an artifice to illustrate my points. I really don't look at things the way most folks do. Thanks for a good discussion.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Part of a Childs life is believing in the Fantastic. It's good for them to "outgrow" things like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, than to find out like this. What a rotten Christmas for those kids...

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Totakeke]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by farflungheroe
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

About Debating online;

Even when you win you are still a loser.

You seem determined to win; not even common sense or reason can stop you.

Good luck. I hope you win.

The only thing I'm debating is whether we should respect the subjective mythos of others or not.

My personal beliefs have no baring on that at all. Other than I believe we should respect the beliefs of ALL or NONE. It's as simple as that.

So ulimately you can say that I believe that Belief of anykind is equal to belief of any other kind. Anyone who assumes their mythos trumps another is simply deluded.

And the teacher was wrong because of that.


Christianity even spells this out plainly in Romans 14:14

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Greetings HunkaHunka.........To what degree should we respect the beliefs of others.....shoud we stop when they conflict with our own belief system....or should we adopt an additional belief system.....You speak of dilusion....with an arogant posture.....Is it possible your philosophy is dilusional.....you reference scripture to support a position that is the antithesis of the purpose Jesus set forth....I agree that sin is a private matter until an effort to justify it is initiated and that time God fearing christians have a responsibility to stand up.....

Well, regardless, I still stand by my decision. It doesn't matter whether people "believe" in Santa, the fact remains that Santa does not exist. And I almost forgot that. People can believe in anything they want, that's fine. But the Santa that the media and the industry perpetuate is a lie. It isn't intended to do any harm, but how often does it?

reply to post by Fuggle


My 3 year old nephew believes in Santa, but we also tell him that we need to know what he'd like as a gift for christmas so we can buy it and send it to Santa to wrap up.

I don't think it was right for the teacher to tell all those children that Santa is fake. They'd find out on their own eventually anyway but they should be allowed to have something to believe in and look forward to while they are children.

reply to post by Totakeke


Does it really? You seem to be well versed in this field, please, show us examples of this. Many here seem to feel that having an imagination is a bad thing, or is it? I don`t believe it is, if people didn`t have any imagination, we wouldn`t have phones, cars or planes. I believe having an imagination, and keeping it sharp is good for humanity. What I find disturbing Totakeke, is that you keep telling him, that he can`t prove that Santa exists. Show us that God exists, will you? Can you? No more then he can Santa. So please, why do you feel so compelled in ruining what he believes in? Myself, I believe in a creator, and when I was young, I believed in Santa. I still believe in what he represented, to this day I do, and I will till the day I leave this world. You see, I believe in the gift of love, that`s all it`s about......love. And people like yourselves want this to stop? Sorry, I don`t live in a loveless self centered world as others want to. Just because some people wish to believe in a little more then what you may want them to, don`t condemn them to your reality. This world can be bad enough the way it is, that is why we need the gift of love, and to share it with the world.



[edit on 12-12-2008 by FiatLux]

What does Santa represent? That "gimme gimme" actually does get? I think Santa has some okay-ish values to teach children (such as kindness) but I think that going around telling children that this man exists is, well, I won't say wrong, but I'll say morally questionable.

I can prove Santa doesn't exist. He doesn't come down the chimney. He doesn't leave the presents (parents do). He doesn't eat the cookies (again, parents do). So I think saying that Santa isn't real (without over-analyzing it, because you could believe anything about anything if you really wanted to nit pick) is a safe bet. I can't prove HIS Santa exists, because his Santa could be anything, I really don't know. I do know, however, that Commercial Santa doesn't exist.

I do not believe in a loveless world, and I think that imagination should be fostered. I just think that Santa shouldn't even be taught from the start. Christmas is about giving and selflessness, and as someone else pointed out, the Santa that nearly (if not) all of the Santa-believing population is all about, "What will I get this year? What will Santa bring ME? ME ME ME." I would rather know that my parents took the time and money to get me gifts, rather than some stranger coming down my chimney.

I'll admit it was a little exciting, but was it some magical man who filled my life with whimsy and wonder? No. Sure, it was fun seeing "from Santa" on a present, but was he this life changing character that would've turned me bitter without? No. I also already suspected he wasn't real, and didn't find out all at once, but for people who do, it can be damaging. Children just aren't ready to understand that their parents mean well when they lie about Santa. They think, "These are my parents. How could they lie to me?"

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Totakeke]

I also have read many posts that tell us, if we are taught that Santa exists when we are young, and later we find out that Santa does not exist, we may end up hating our parents for the lie they told us. I find that hard to believe. For one, if we are shown love while being a child, why would we hate our parents for anything? I could see it in a loveless home, but not a home that is full of love for each other.

However, do I think that the children should have found out that way? By a substitute teacher blurting it out? No. That would damage them way more than discovering it on their own.

Santa used to be a kind man (and from other posts I've read he was actually real at one point) but over the years he got too commercialized. I think we need to start teaching kids about the real Santa, not Commercial Santa.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Totakeke]

reply to post by Totakeke


Who did you say your parents bought those gifts for? ME ME ME ME? I really feel sorry for people like yourself.

Virginia O’Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

the truth should be told unconditionally; those parents have nothing to be mad about.