NIST Officially Admits Freefall Speed re:WTC 7!!

Originally posted by franspeakfree
The truth is its not just the americans that are dumb and oblivious to what is happening and has happened, ts the entire world and if the entire world were to wake up after the chaos life would never be the same again. Its a scary thought.

In addition I have shown several of my colleagues this video and guess what the reaction was? the sad fact is the majority of people do not want to know the truth as long as they are ok. It makes my blood boil!

Just because someone's logic process and propensity for common sense is not the same as your own, doesn't mean they are "dumb" and oblivious.

The fact of the matter, is that those who firmly believe that this was an inside job are heavily biased, and will twist anything brought forward so that it fits their theory. I've already seen it happen with topics like the Pentagon crash. People ignore the things that they can't explain, but insist that it's a conspiracy based on the facts they have decided are strongest for their case. But there is no damning, solid proof.

I don't believe for a moment that something this huge, that would involved probably hundreds or perhaps thousands of people in a coordinated effort, would be covered up with such skill. There has been no smoking guns, no solid proof (admissions, photographs or video of a damning nature, like of explosives, etc.), no one for whom the guilt of murdering thousands of innocent civilians got the better of them, and admitted they were involved.

People are basing their entire premise on comments heard in the heat of a bad situation like "pull out," as if that proves without a doubt that it was a coverup. And you know, I am open-minded. If someone can provide further proof of a more concrete nature that will make me consider this is a coverup, I'll jump on this bandwagon. But I am not going to take several things that occurred and connect them together in my mind, to make it into something more sinistar. Just because A and B and C happened, doesn't mean to me that they cumulatively add up to a conspiracy. Could someone yelling "pull it" mean something else? Yes, it's possible. Could a reporter screw up his report? I'd assume that, long before I'd assume that the media actually KNEW of this, and were involved, and also did nothing to stop it. The fact that a steel structure collapsed due to fire (from the official story) for the first time, means that it may well collapse in a way that we are not familiar with. Just like we are not really certain what two jumbo jets flying into the middle of a huge building would do, nor the effect of a jet flying into a hardened concrete structure.

I'm still wondering this: If this really happened.. and the WTC was a conspiracy.. and the flight into the Pengtagon was a setup, why hasn't there been a shred of serious evidence? Pictures of people planting explosives, or of the explosives after they were placed (or noticed them placing them at all, since it would take a huge team a serious effort to plant all those explosives in say, the WTC). No pictures of people planting wreckage, no pictures or witnesses for planes flying away (Pentagon), not a single person coming forward and admitting this was an inside job, and they were involved? All we have is guesswork and heavily biased opinions. Don't get angry with Americans for not joining your crusade, when it can't provide these more concrete bits of proof for your accusations.

Originally posted by thedman
As for noise - ever see a building collapse? Makes a lot of noise as it
falls, including booming noises as the floors collapse into each other

But yet you guys claim that explosives would have to have been heard during this collapse?

Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Does anyone remember which building was reported to have collapsed on a british news program? I don't remember which building it was, but the reports were staing that it had fallen even though it was clearly visible in the background. The broadcast was then cut out due to "technical difficulties". If they were referencing WTC7, it would only make sense that they had prior knowledge of the fall, i.e.-demolition.

reply to post by '___'eviant


I like how you side-stepped the points brought up in that video.

Telling me "lol you're ignorant" is ignorance on your part. I brought forth a source which you're unwilling to discuss. The video answers your hokey conspiracy theory indefinitely. If it's wrong, point out WHY. And this time "lol it's a conspiracy and you're blind if you can't see it" isn't a good enough answer.




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[edit on 12/12/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by thedman
The temperature was kept high by fires burning in the rubble for weeks,
the rubble covering it acting as a lid keeping the heat in - same as in a
mine fire

The only reason coal mine fires last for years and decades is because no firefighting effort can be made to quench the fire in a coal seam.

Now, please explain what all those millions of gallons of water would do to your "mine fire" in the rubble piles.

[edit on 12/12/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by fleabit

I don't believe for a moment that something this huge, that would involved probably hundreds or perhaps thousands of people in a coordinated effort, would be covered up with such skill. There has been no smoking guns, no solid proof (admissions, photographs or video of a damning nature, like of explosives, etc.), no one for whom the guilt of murdering thousands of innocent civilians got the better of them, and admitted they were involved.

Why would it take thousands of people set this up? It didnt take thousands of people to do the operation did it? The only people that would have to know is the actual hi jackers, the people who planned it, a few conspirators in choice locations, and the people who funded it. 50 people at most. How many people did it take to overthrow the Iranian democratically elected president in 1953? Bay of pigs? (Insert any major intelligence operation here) 9/11 does not pass the smell test. There is just to many pieces that do not fit in the puzzle.

As far as videos why did the FBI confiscate the hotel video across from the pentagon that could and could put to rest the whole missile hitting the pentagon theory. It had a direct view and yet the FBI refuses to release it. Why? This is 9/11 we are talking about here EVERY bit of evidence should be made public to kill any conspiracies. There is plenty of video showing WTC7 falling at free fall speed. Just because all the conspirators arent standing in front of it with a big sign that says this...

*SNIP*

Doesnt mean that they didnt do it. Some people things need to be spelled out for them in a nice neat little story line and others have the ability to put two and two together. I even feel if there WAS a photograph of the conspirators admitting they did it and the government came up with some story people would still believe the government. They have faith in America. People like me however realize that our government has lied to us to many times and they are not to be trusted and anything that does and does not happen needs to be investigated to the max outside of what the government says. Histories show that ALL governments turn corrupt eventually which is why all major empires end up falling. Dont think that it cant happen here in America.


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[edit on 12/12/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by thedman
As for noise - ever see a building collapse? Makes a lot of noise as it
falls, including booming noises as the floors collapse into each other

But yet you guys claim that explosives would have to have been heard during this collapse?

Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Hence the need for some calcs about how much explosives, or TB's would be needed to do what you are basing your working hypothesis on.

When will you do this?

Excellent Post!! Kudo's to you!

Now we need to get every American to donate $1 to a fund and create a REWARD for any information leading to the conviction of any and all participants in this tragedy.

I am from Canada but I have a cousin who's husband is a NYC firefighter and lost 13 of his friends and co-workers during 911.

I would think that a reward of say 200 million would bring someone out of the wood work?



reply to
post by Leo Strauss

reply to post by IconoclasticTalamasca


That was WTC 7.

The thing that boggles my mind is freefall. Just keep your mind focused on that word freefall. Which is now the official position of NIST the government agency tasked with explaining the collapse of WTC 7.

Now with that thought "freefall" in mind imagine the tons of steel and concrete hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of welds and bolts. Then say to yourself the building fell as if there was nothing but air and open space below...freefall. Not possible.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
Hence the need for some calcs about how much explosives, or TB's would be needed to do what you are basing your working hypothesis on.

When will you do this?

If I have to explain to you again that it is nearly impossible to calculate thermobarics, I'll scream. So, I'll just post the rest of that page I posted before with the equations (I actually found the rest of it).

Vapor cloud explosion modeling historically has been subject to large uncertainties resulting from inadequate understanding of deflagrative effects. According to current single-degree of freedom models, blast damage/injury can be represented by Pressure-Impulse (P-I) diagrams, which include the effects of overpressure, dynamic pressure, impulse, and pulse duration. The peak overpressure and duration are used to calculate the impulse from shock waves. Even some advanced explosion models ignore the effects of blast wave reflection off structures, which can produce misleading results over- or under-estimating the vulnerability of a structure. Sophisticated software used to produce three-dimensional models of the effects of vapor cloud explosions allows the evaluation of damage experienced by each structure within a facility as a result of a primary explosion and any accompanying secondary explosions produced by vapor clouds.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Care to buy me this "sophisticated software"? If so, I'll do your computations for you.

Notice how I said that I'll do your calculations for you?

I'm not your personal calculator BTW. Do the damn calcs yourself if you're so smart and sure about the results.

reply to post by KIRKSTERUK


Sorry friend, I'm at work and can't link to Youtube. I assumed you were referring to the video where the owner of WTC 7 is talking about, "And there had been such loss of life...the smartest thing to do was pull it." I've also seen the video where it was explained he was talking about the firemen. I just think that's total bull. Someone misspoke, so they had to say that insted of an 'it', an unliving entity, what Larry really meant was 'them', as in the firemen. And as far as somebody ignoring the points and just ridiculing, calling this a 'hokey conspiracy theory' and 'nonsense' is a pretty good indicator that we could get a signed confession from Larry, and you'd still say, "Bah, my government would not lie to me. Look at this video from the MSM. Those kooks on ATS will believe anything!"

If you really think that way, I'm confused as to why you're here.


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[edit on 12/12/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Now with that thought "freefall" in mind imagine the tons of steel and concrete hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of welds and bolts. Then say to yourself the building fell as if there was nothing but air and open space below...freefall. Not possible.

Also keep in mind that buckled columns still have some resistance to them. So, the only way to have a freefall is to remove the column's resistance 100%.

Here is a video of Barry Jennings a witness to explosions inside WTC 7 BEFORE WTC1 & WTC2 collapsed. Interestingly Barry changed his story somewhat later and then died of unknown cause just before NIST's final report was released. Coincidentally Kenny Johannemann, also a witness to explosions in the building, committed suicide on the 7th anniversary of the attacks.

Here is the video:

More of those endless 9-11 Coincidences or are irritating troublesome eyewitnesses just being rubbed out? Will the NIST backsliders be rubbed out next, for their reversal on WTC7 and admitting freefall? Should John Gage be very afraid?

The Daily News reported yesterday that Kenny Johannemann - a key witness in the WTC 9/11 bombings - recently committed suicide.

I call him a key witness because in spite of aggressive prodding from reporters about "the planes," he clearly called what happened on the upper floors of the World Trade Center "explosions."

More important, Johannemann reported a massive explosion in the basement of one of the Twin Towers and rescuing someone who received full body burns from an explosion that took place at the base - not the top - of the building. (The Daily News obscured this part of the story in their report today.)

The suicide note purportedly left by Johannemann stated that he had "lost friends and family" over "his drinking" which the letter attributes to his depression since 9/11.Here is the entire text of the note as reported in the Daily News:

"The reason I killed myself was 'cause I was getting evicted and can't handle homelessness. I was also very depressed since 9/11. I've been drinking way too much and it's ruined my life. I've lost friends and family over drinking and I'm very lonely. There is nothing left for me to be happy about other than my cat. Sounds weird, but it's true. I just wanted to say I'm sorry 2 any people I ever hurt in my life. I really was a good person when I wasn't drinking. I hope people remember that. Goodbye!!!Kenny Johannemann"

I wonder if the person who wrote this suicide note bothered to spend any time listening to Johannemann speak. Johannemann had a large extended family and large social network which, according to his cousin Gerald Maya, universally held him in high regard. Maya had offered him a place to live.

You have to ask yourself two thing:

1. Would a man shoot himself in the head because he faced eviction when he had a family and social safety net like that?

2. Would someone as well spoken as Johannemann demonstrated himself to be on live TV, write a suicide note that sounds more like a teen aged boy's text message than a grown man's final testament?

Keep in mind that there are other people, more visible than Johannemann, who are actively telling the same story he did in public venues. You can bet that Johannemann's "suicide" has sent them a message loud and clear about their safety or lack of it. In case you were concerned about them, these eye witnesses are alive and well
dotconnectoruk.blogspot.com...

News of Jennings’ death comes on the heels of losing another 9/11 hero and eyewitness– Kenny Johannemann, who reportedly committed suicide 12 days before the seventh anniversary of 9/11. Johannemann is credited with saving at least one man’s life on 9/11 and was also a witness to explosions in the towers.
firefightersfor911truth.org...

[edit on 12/12/08 by SPreston]

I'm relatively new to this game, but have some experience with scientific reporting. This was a gigantic forensic evaluation of a complex and almost unprecedented event and the group of engineers and physicists evaluating initially made some assumptions that weren't correct. Like real scientists, they are trying to get closer to a full understanding.

The Truthers seem to jump on anything and everything that will discredit these people. The counter claims seem to be mostly from general knowledge and experience rather than studied knowledge/

The dissenters, as far as I can see, are merely looking for holes to pick and openings for other explanations of the data provided by those involved in evaluating the destruction of these structures.

This all just gets more and more like some ego game rather than an attempt to understand what happened, how, and why.


Mike F

Originally posted by '___'eviant
reply to post by KIRKSTERUK

 

Sorry friend, I'm at work and can't link to Youtube. I assumed you were referring to the video where the owner of WTC 7 is talking about, "And there had been such loss of life...the smartest thing to do was pull it." I've also seen the video where it was explained he was talking about the firemen. I just think that's total bull. Someone misspoke, so they had to say that insted of an 'it', an unliving entity, what Larry really meant was 'them', as in the firemen. And as far as somebody ignoring the points and just ridiculing, calling this a 'hokey conspiracy theory' and 'nonsense' is a pretty good indicator that we could get a signed confession from Larry, and you'd still say, "Bah, my government would not lie to me. Look at this video from the MSM. Those kooks on ATS will believe anything!"

If you really think that way, I'm confused as to why you're here.


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[edit on 12/12/2008 by Hal9000]

You've got me wrong. Don't stereotype me as someone who believes everything the government tells me. I have strong beliefs. And my belief is that dozens upon dozens of firemen and demo workers gave a great explanation as to debunk the "pull it" interpretation speech from Larry. The tapes which explain the "pull" talk were from tapes recorded on 9/11 itself. You say this is a mistake. First of all how would you know that, and how come out of the companies mentioned in the video (which you admitted to not having watched, lol) not one of them equated "pull it" to a controlled demolition? It refers to a pull-down method where cables are tied to each post around the perimeter of the building and taken down that way.

So could it not have been possible for a terrorist to plant a bomb in the basement? Osama himself was amazed that the twin towers fell down. The plot was to take out as many people as possible, so a bomb in another area of the building could also have been part of the plot.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by KIRKSTERUK]

Originally posted by mmiichael


I'm relatively new to this game, but have some experience with scientific reporting. This was a gigantic forensic evaluation of a complex and almost unprecedented event and the group of engineers and physicists evaluating initially made some assumptions that weren't correct. Like real scientists, they are trying to get closer to a full understanding.

The Truthers seem to jump on anything and everything that will discredit these people. The counter claims seem to be mostly from general knowledge and experience rather than studied knowledge/

The dissenters, as far as I can see, are merely looking for holes to pick and openings for other explanations of the data provided by those involved in evaluating the destruction of these structures.

This all just gets more and more like some ego game rather than an attempt to understand what happened, how, and why.

Mike F

They spent more money investigating Bill Clinton getting a BJ than the 9/11 attacks,all the columns were taken away and melted...none remain..hardly a huge forensic job.

Originally posted by KIRKSTERUK
reply to post by ashamedamerican

 

The "Pulled" from Larry S has been debunked before many times, even on a BBC documentary in the UK. I'm sure someone else here can point to the source. As for people like you, finding something which implies it could have been part of a controlled demo is enough for you to spout this kind of nonsense whilst ignoring the logical explanation.

edit: here it is

uk.youtube.com...


[edit on 12-12-2008 by KIRKSTERUK]

I'm so tired of this ridiculous claim that I started a thread that debunks this 'debunk attempt' once and for all.
What did Larry Silverstein mean by "Pull It"?
So now that the "kai bosh" has been put down on this one, let's move on to more important things, shall we?

reply to post by fleabit

I don't believe for a moment that something this huge, that would involved probably hundreds or perhaps thousands of people in a coordinated effort, would be covered up with such skill.

More than 130,000 people worked on the Manhattan Project and not one of them leaked the information. I doubt it took 130,000 people to pull this off.

There has been no smoking guns...

The 16 foot hole in the pentagon, the lack of wreckage in shanksville, the molten steel pouring out of the towers before the collapse, the pools of molten metal under the towers and WTC 7, Larry Silverstein's own admission that they "pulled" the building, all three buildings dropping vertically, the traces of thermate, the microspheres taken from samples before cleanup began, the EPA samples of 1.3 DPP, BBC reporting the "collapse" of WTC while it was still standing, The fact that Osama Bin Laden was being labeled as the mastermind of 9/11 before the towers even fell, The fact that NO steel frame building has ever collapsed due to fires or ever probably will, The fact that Hani Hanjour couldn't even be "checked out" to rent a plane because he couldn't even control a Cessna, the video evidence of bombs going off at ground level before the towers came down, must I go on?
You're right there isn't "a smoking gun" there are many many many of them.

Pictures of people planting explosives...

Are you out of your mind? I can see it now...
"Hey Jim want to see my family photo album? Here's me and the kids at the lake, oh and here's a picture of me rigging the twin towers and building 7 with thermate charges to help murder 3,000 innocent people to further my governments own greedy agenda's and policies."

Holy Jesus on a cracker where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Next troll please, now serving number 5...