Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

Originally posted by neonine
i just wanted to remind every one out there that if this goes down that it actually effects real ever day people most of which dont even work for the big 3

My question above stands for anyone pushing for a bailout on the argument that X number of people will be affected.

How much do you propose we give the autos? How many dollars will keep them at a break even level, and for how long?

reply to post by FX44rice


im sure i will be i tend to over react some times lol

If anyone should be bailing the Big 3 out it should be the oil companies. After all, it was their products that were instrumental in Exxon's "record profits". Why should the tax payer help them out, when they refused to get on board with efficient, quality crafted vehicles?

reply to post by anachryon


like was stated before tie it into the bailout that was already approved. which brings me to another great great question do you know how much the bailout is really costing right now as we speak?

Detroit needs a turnaround and not a check?

Mitt, Mitt, Mitt. The Mormons need an FDR, not a Hitler!

Originally posted by neonine
like was stated before tie it into the bailout that was already approved. which brings me to another great great question do you know how much the bailout is really costing right now as we speak?

Tie it in is fine, but I'm interested to know how many dollars you believe will be required to "save" the Big Three.

By "the bailout" I assume you mean ESSA/TARP, and yes I do. About $350B directly, and about $3.5T in related funds.

reply to post by neonine
You will have a difficult if not impossible time trying to obtain a working Visa in Australia. First you need to have employment there earning at least $100k annually, in waht the gov't considers a productive sector of the economy. You cannot retire there either even if you have millions. Same goes for New Zealand. Not to mention there economies are completely in the toilet as ours is. Trust me there is no safe haven and leaving the country anywhere without verified employment awaiting you will be difficult. You can go for a couple months then return, then go back again and again. But all global economies are tanking currently.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, neonine. Love the avatar, BTW, I'm an animator and I'd say you have good taste.

Anyway, there are truths to both sides of this argument. A lot of what you guys are saying is true, about the unions getting too strong of a grip on the industry, about this whole cycle of repetitive marketing and development that has characterized our auto industry for the past thirty years or so. It's gone stagnant, I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around.

I also agree that bailouts are not nearly as useful as some people would like to believe, and in fact are arguably not helpful at all, in the long run. But the average Joe-Shmoe who lives in Michigan and works for the auto industry isn't some corrupt CEO, or some misguided investor, or any kind of big decision-maker with evil intentions for the industry. He also isn't necessarily part of any of the big unions.

Nope, he's just another American who loves cars, and the feel of grease on his hands. Your average friendly neighbor who's worked hard at a job he knows how to do, making an honest living like any good American should. And you're telling me, screw this guy, just stand back and watch as his life's work is taken away and he's thrown out in the streets of Detroit? You're telling me he deserves this?

Some of you... not all of you, but some of you are definitely giving me that impression. Look, nobody thinks bailouts are good for business. Sure, there are some executives whose fall will be heavily cushioned by these payouts. But do you honestly think if these executives took all the money for themselves, the unions would let them get away with it? The hope -- or at the very least, my hope -- is that this payout will more or less cushion the fall for everybody in the industry, and I suspect that the average Joe-Shmoe with a car-related job will agree with me. Of course our auto industry will continue to decline, until some drastic changes are made. But if there's any way we can help to ease the impact, we need to try.

It's a parachute, not a new pair of wings. They'll have to grow those on their own.

reply to post by Bernard the Monk


I'm sorry to say but turn a rounds for big corporations are not free most unfortunately ever thing in the world has a price tag and now we are all going to pay for it whether you like it or not.

reply to post by Magnus47
Then who shall we cushion next? Because you need to understand we have massive contraction in our 70% consumer economy. We haven't seen anything yet. Many, many businesses are going to fail, with many many good American people losing jobs. So bail everybody out. with what? This is why many will be putting guns in there mouth when the dollar crisis unravels.

reply to post by Magnus47


lol thanks man i love that series.

im not to sure if this is a good way to put this but maybe it will help some of your wrap your minds around it. ever one pooled together and helped out when 9/11 happened and the lively hoods of many new yorkers was threatened. it happens again with both the hurricains in the south hands down no questions asked. now its in the form of a finacal disaster for us michiganders but now all the sudden because its a different form of help needed we get a screw you attitude form some of the people in our great country.

funny i though the idea of living in america was to help each other out you know land of the free home of the brave.

we are going threw hard time and we all need to stick together during these trials and tribulations not argue and fight. if a group of peoples need help we should be there to help no questions asked. id hate for the American peoples to drift from this values because quite frankly that's all we have

reply to post by FX44rice


its all good i already have my skill work visa app in for welding and a job plus i have a family member on the inside already. lol believe me i know its not going to be easy but ill be damned if im going to give up.

sorry for the off topic mods

reply to post by neonine
I would say you should be in good spirits then!

I say take the half of the money that was giving to AIG (that they haven't spent on vacations yet) and give that to the auto industry. The banks don't deserve it, but damn if the hard auto workers dont

Hi All,

Well I would like to throw my five cents in the hat, for what its worth. ( And I apologize for the long post. I had to find some pages to back up a few statements, and then explain a few key points.) First of all after doing a bit of research paroosing, I have discovered a few bits of interesting knowledge.


First this from "the truth about cars dot com": (it is a blurb from the original AP article here: GM Opens 1st Russina Facotory )

While GM, Ford and Chrysler put the squeeze on the taxpayer’s elected (and appointed) representatives, their shift of investment out of the U.S. and into other countries continues apace. This morning, for example, the Associated Press reports on the grand opening of General Motors newest $300mfactory… in St. Petersburg, Russia. “This plant is GM’s first in Russia, where demand for cheap, well-built cars has exploded amid a decade-long economic boom.” source

According to the AP article Russia was experiencing growth in this part of its economy. Apparently many of the worlds car makers are setting up factories in Russia. The irony is this statement also from the AP article:

"We may see a slowdown in the next six months but when the situation economic stabilizes and car loans become more available, the market will keep growing," Pak said. "Russia will definitely become Europe's largest car market -- if not this year, then next year."

Hmmm... should they hold their breath waiting for economic stabilization to come? My question is, would part of the bailout money go for paying off the cost of this new factory?? With moves like this, I cant see any of the big three trying their best to protect the jobs of its US workers.

As many of the corporations have discovered in the past couple of decades, it is cheaper to hire labor overseas. I cant help but think that the big three asking for money is to secure "other" ventures, and to line the pockets of a few key higher-up's.


That being said, I think that $25 billion is a mere starting point, in terms of lending, that the automakers truly want. I am quite sure the correct figure would scare the begeezus out of everyone, and would result with a resounding "Hell No!" I would like to us the current AIG fiasco to prove my point.


They previously asked for and was granted a $85 billion loan, that total has been upgraded to $150 million. With a bit of restructuring here is the amount that AIG will be getting from the FED:

As part of the new arrangement, the Federal Reserve is reducing a $85 billion loan it had made available to AIG to $60 billion. The Fed also is replacing a separate $37.8 billion loan to the insurance company with a $52.5 billion aid package. www.cbsnews.com...

Thats three different payments totaling the $150 billion.

I am quite sure the execs at AIG knew the original amount needed to be higher. Maybe that is why they still scheduled and enjoyed that luxurious spa weekend. They knew more money was coming in.
Here is another reason why I am sure that the initial $25 billion will not be enough. Here are the last quarterly losses that the big three according to this article in Dail y Markets


1.) Ford (approx) $3 billion
2.) GM $4.2 billion
3.) Chrysler $772.5 million ( Source )

Tallying up those figures and rounding them off, totals to about $7.8 billion, and that is just for the last quarter. If we divide the $25 billion between the three with say $5 billion going to Chrysler and $10 billion each going to Ford and GM, that would be enough for, at most, two more quarters. (That without any of the big three dipping into their reserves, their quarterly losses staying under $5 billion, and the hope that they are not cooking their books!-- which I doubt )

What happens when the quarter after that comes up?? I cant imagine that our economy will be miraculously repaired by then. Do they have some sort of secret business plan that can successfully be implemented by that time? I doubt it. So I believe that the $25 billion is just a starting point, and it wont do anything but keep them afloat for a few more months.

Of course that is a few more months that many people will have a paycheck. So this whole bailout question is quite a complicated one. On the one hand, I agree that they should "fail", as the current business model is faulty, and cannot be sustained, especially since there is no real "solution" in the works. A bailout will not fix the problem.

However a bailout will save the paychecks of a few million people, and that is something that should not be ignored. I mean it isnt like there will be a new equal paying job waiting for the people who are let go. So I think the bailout money should either be spent as very "fat" severance check to the millions of workers that they are going to have to let go of anyway, or it should be poured into a research and development project. A R&D project that could come up with a sort of conversion kit that they could sell to existing and new customers. ( A kit that would make it so the car could be converted to a hybrid, electric, or other type of technology that would make the cars more appealing to buyers)

The research and development idea is something that I think they would be able to implement in half a years time. There are several conversion kits already available online for someone with the know how. I am sure that it would be easy for the R&D team to "borrow" some of these ideas and make one that could be patented (important for most big corps) and installed. Of course the banks would have to take part by using some of their own bailout money to provide loans to the people wishing to buy the cars.


I am, of course, not saying that my R&D idea is feasible or even doable. It is just that… an idea. I like to come up with solutions to problems instead of harping about the problem itself. It is a waste of energy, in my opinion. (cont next post)


[edit on 11/20/2008 by sylvrshadow]

Now since none of the big three have consulted me to ask my opinion, my plan for the $25 billion is rather moot. I just dont see a black or white answer to the bailout question. In all honesty, there is no quick, lasting, or any other type of fix for our economy.

Our financial system is Pompeii living in the shadow of a volcano that we either believed or wanted to believe was dormant. These bailout plans are just money being spent to build a concrete wall to protect us from a mountain that is very much awake and ready to blow. What are the real viable answers for people?? Move? (find a country with no volcanoes—don’t think that exists) Underground shelter? (Buy gold/silver & store up essentials—for how long and what is the plan for after?) Live on ships until it is safe to return? (Let the system fail and try and survive— many die, but life returns in a few years in very fertile ground.) Or maybe some truly viable answer that has not been proposed yet.

For what it is worth, I think there is a plan in motion right now, and TPB are implementing a new model of financial structure. A new town so to speak, but still in the shadow of a volcano they will trick some into believing is… well dormant. I mean its worked before, to an extent.

(once again apologies for the long post)

[Edit to also apologize for errors and such... its 2am and I am tired! LOL ]

[edit on 11/20/2008 by sylvrshadow]

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
I say take the half of the money that was giving to AIG (that they haven't spent on vacations yet) and give that to the auto industry. The banks don't deserve it, but damn if the hard auto workers dont

I was going to say the same thing. AIG execs are probably kicking back on some beautiful island laughing it up.

reply to post by sylvrshadow


*applause* I'm glad to see that there are people out there that cant see both sides of the problem at hand, and the inevitable doom of what we know as the American economical system

Hi all,

I just found this: Sept-- Auto Bailout Passes thanks to 'Frankidealist35" from this ATS post :"Us rules out extra car bailout" This was something that I was not aware of, or I simply forgot.

So it seems that I was correct in my previous post about the $25 billion not being enough money. It seems that from this article "Auto Bailout Imminent: Detroit may ask for more" the big three also knew this. It also seems from the previous article that the money already approved would not be made available until the beginning of 2009. What I want to know is why none of the news articles from the last couple of days mentioned that the big three had already received a loan. Many of the articles make it seem like this is the first time they asked for money.

Of course I could probably correctly guess why it wasnt mentioned, but that is another conspiracy theory for another posting day!

Originally posted by sylvrshadow
What I want to know is why none of the news articles from the last couple of days mentioned that the big three had already received a loan. Many of the articles make it seem like this is the first time they asked for money.

Of course I could probably correctly guess why it wasnt mentioned, but that is another conspiracy theory for another posting day!

Good series of posts!

I assume the initial $25B loan isn't mentioned because that was granted with strict rules that it must be used to develop more fuel efficient vehicles. GM, at least, isn't so much concerned with developing new vehicles as it is avoiding filing for bankruptcy; they can't use the money for daily operations. That's what they need money for, what with them bleeding $2B per month in cash.