Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

Would it be out of line to require all big 3 hoohahs to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? People who produce work deserve to reap the rewards of their effort. People who don't produce work should not.

Good ole mitt is a joke here in Michigan. When he ran for governor here, he made a promise that no matter what happened, he wouldn't turn his back on Michigan.

As it turns out he is a liar.

Let Detroit go bankrupt....How STUPID !

The tidal wave of job losses throughout the country would devastate the US economy for years if "Detroit were allowed to go bankrupt".

What I find absurd is the Big 3 automakers are being raked over the coals yet AIG and others were handed money with no oversight and what happened IMMEDIATELY with AIG??? Oh yeah, the execs starting going on lavious vacations using our tax dollars. Why aren't they being raked over the coals for that?

The hypocracy I'm seeing now is bordering on the OBSCENE.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

I haven't bought a product from "Detroit" in over a dozen years, because they haven't offered products meeting my needs for a price I wanted to pay. Before that I bought 7 new vehicles from "Detroit", and three of those were actually made in other countries: Canada, Mexico, and Korea.

If Congress gave me a voucher for a free car, I'd select one from Ohio or Tennessee (Honda or Toyota).

Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to file bankruptcy to reduce their labor costs to competitive levels.

Originally posted by jfj123
Good ole mitt is a joke here in Michigan. When he ran for governor here, he made a promise that no matter what happened, he wouldn't turn his back on Michigan.

As it turns out he is a liar.

Let Detroit go bankrupt....How STUPID !

The tidal wave of job losses throughout the country would devastate the US economy for years if "Detroit were allowed to go bankrupt".

What I find absurd is the Big 3 automakers are being raked over the coals yet AIG and others were handed money with no oversight and what happened IMMEDIATELY with AIG??? Oh yeah, the execs starting going on lavious vacations using our tax dollars. Why aren't they being raked over the coals for that?

The hypocracy I'm seeing now is bordering on the OBSCENE.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

Big 3 automakers deserve to be raked over the coals, if for no other reason than flying 3 corporate jets to Washington to beg for a bail out! The would have gotten more sympathy if they would have carpooled (unless they chose and "evil" SUV).

NO BAILOUTS FOR ANYONE! GIVE US TAXPAYERS A BREAK!

I go along with letting them starve. They've produced lemons for so long that people will not buy an American car if it was nearly free. I've had four American Cars and all them have been junk with major problems. That is the word on the street as well that if it is below a certain amount from the big three that it will be a lemon.

I had so many unusual major problems with American Cars that I went to Honda a few years back because I was tired of arguing over Warranty Coverage and not being able to have reliable transportation to and from work.

I watched my Chrysler car overheat so badly that it partially melted the engine at 25,000 miles. Then the repair center would not cover it claiming it had no antifreeze. Of course it didn't have antifreeze it ran out onto the road and was so hot it scorched the paint on the hood! The last Ford vehicle owned I had the locked down ignition switch replaced 15 times at a cost of 500 each time and finally took a mallet to it so that for the last two years of owning I could start it without a key! The last straw with the Ford was the front struts falling out and the front wheels collapsing sideways!

I could go on and on for 3 or 4 pages of major problems from my cars from the big three but, that accomplishes nothing. For those that think the fuel efficient vehicles had no market...umm that is one reason some went to Honda from the 90's onward! They never tried to compete with small cars. Their offerings were half heartedly made.

I do feel sorry for the workers though. It isn't their fault.

Cars are old technology when compared to the pace of technological advancement and scientific research in this country. Whatever we have to do with the automobile industry, it should only be in the labs. There should be a few high tech firms developing better electronics and software for the automobile industries abroad. To continue to manufacture cars here is synonymous with saying that we should still be building horse-drawn carriages, just so people have somewhere to work. That should be the extent of it. Otherwise, we should be divesting all the resources from that industry into something much more beneficial, such as the research and development of alternative energy sources, or perhaps into our education system (that way the loss of all those manual laborer jobs are replaced by smarter college graduates). If human welfare wasn't such a big concern then we wouldn't even be contemplating letting these businesses fail.

For one, the textile industry, which was historically powerful in the U.S. has moved on. Those industries have been relegated to nations such as India and China, where production costs are much lower... and do you know why they're much lower? Because the people don't mind performing a low skilled job for a lower standard of living. They aren't sensitized to the fantastically comfortable lives that we as Americans believe is our birthright.

In this country almost 95% of all manual labor originating in 1950 has been replaced with automation. Yet... for some reason we can't let go of the rest. That extra 5% likely consists of industries which are on the verge of failure, but employ so many people that they can't possible restructure them or that the government is incapable of retraining them all, or at least are currently unwilling to.

The workers at GM plants shouldn't be paid more than $12 an hour. Those jobs shouldn't be considered real careers. They shouldn't be used as a resource for supporting a family. Perhaps as stepping stones to greater opportunities, perhaps as a means to a short-term end, but not as a life long career choice. No one should even work there long enough to get a pension in the first place.

The problem in America is that people both neglect getting an education, and except to experience a high quality of life, which they believe is their inherent birthright as patriotic nationals.

This whole sub-prime mortgage lending fiasco a TESTAMENT to that absurd cultural contradiction.

For god's sake, we have high schools dedicated to graduating automobile technicians. Look where that type of thinking is getting us! We're entirely complacent. We are becoming irresponsible as a society, and by extension, increasingly incompetent in our ability to provide a future for our children.

What we should do is invent a brand new, revolutionary technology, which requires a lot of unskilled, manual labor. All those people working at the manufacturing plants in Detroit could take up jobs in these new technologies. Their jobs would be secure in the U.S. because we're obviously really good innovators and it would take a couple decades for any foreign market to catch up copy what we're doing. That's what Obama needs to be doing right now, not bailing out failing industries. Didn't he promise investment in new science and technology? That's the only way Americans can compete.

It's our propensity for ingenuity and creativity that keeps us at the top of the world, not our productive efficiency.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by cognoscente]

They had their chance to do the right thing and keep the electric car going in the 90's but they we're in bed with big oil and shot that idea down.

Now look at you Detroit. You could've had a niche... and perhaps profited from the energy side of it as well... but now you're taking private jets to Washington , in order to grovel.

Shame on you.

I truly feel sorry for all of the people who are losing their houses and jobs...

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
I haven't bought a product from "Detroit" in over a dozen years, because they haven't offered products meeting my needs for a price I wanted to pay. Before that I bought 7 new vehicles from "Detroit", and three of those were actually made in other countries: Canada, Mexico, and Korea.

If Congress gave me a voucher for a free car, I'd select one from Ohio or Tennessee (Honda or Toyota).

Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to file bankruptcy to reduce their labor costs to competitive levels.

Just curious but do you know how many car companies that have filed bankruptcy in the past, are still around? Has any car company EVER, been able to restructure and come out of bankruptcy ?

As far as I know, it's never happened in the history of the U.S. so I wouldn't expect it to happen now.

If they file bankruptcy, they are done.
No more jobs for the factory workers, parts suppliers, steel workers, coal industry, oil industry, and on, and on, and on..... Every supportive industry would been heavily damaged. Even restaurants, construction companies, landscape companies, retailers, would close because of a big 3 bankruptcy.

My last 8 vehicles have been Fords for one reason only. I've needed reliable, high quality vehicles and I've never been disappointed.

Originally posted by CharlesMartel

Originally posted by jfj123
Good ole mitt is a joke here in Michigan. When he ran for governor here, he made a promise that no matter what happened, he wouldn't turn his back on Michigan.

As it turns out he is a liar.

Let Detroit go bankrupt....How STUPID !

The tidal wave of job losses throughout the country would devastate the US economy for years if "Detroit were allowed to go bankrupt".

What I find absurd is the Big 3 automakers are being raked over the coals yet AIG and others were handed money with no oversight and what happened IMMEDIATELY with AIG??? Oh yeah, the execs starting going on lavious vacations using our tax dollars. Why aren't they being raked over the coals for that?

The hypocracy I'm seeing now is bordering on the OBSCENE.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by jfj123]

Big 3 automakers deserve to be raked over the coals, if for no other reason than flying 3 corporate jets to Washington to beg for a bail out! The would have gotten more sympathy if they would have carpooled (unless they chose and "evil" SUV).

NO BAILOUTS FOR ANYONE! GIVE US TAXPAYERS A BREAK!

So lets rake over the coals the guys who need 25B but not the guys that need 700 billion?

Don't get me wrong, they big 3 CEO's had a great opportunity for a huge public relations gimmick and they blew it.
Each CEO could have driven one of their new GREEN CARS to make a great public relations point but instead they chose to fly their jets. Yep bad idea HOWEVER.... is it any worse then the AIG execs taking our tax dollars to go on vacation? My money bought those clowns massages and 5 star meals. When was the last time you had either?

What angers me is that the 700 billion bailout of the financial companies, still has no oversight and the execs mis-using our tax money, have not been held accountable in any way. How much coverage have you seen about the execs MULTIPLE vacations? How many times have you seen them in front of congress, begging for money?

i would like to say this becuase it comes from the heart.......................................................................................................................... if you wanna make a real #ing differnence get off your fat asses and join together in a revolution against all the corruption in the world unite people and go and take over every agency and reconstruct this entire nation ... in the end its going to be all out war... so people need to stop being #ing stupid with their thumbs up thier ass... and take asvice from people who havent been brainwashed by everything

shoot em all...save six for pallbearers

reply to post by jfj123


Exactly. How are we going to oversee how the auto companies use this money? We can't feasibly do that. Anyway, a public hand in the private sector isn't such a good thing either, even if what they [the private sector] is doing isn't all that great... It leads to too many conflicting interests. The best way to do it is to let them file bankruptcy. Otherwise, they have two weeks until Congress adjourns this issue completely, and if they don't come up with some startling business changes by then, or at least draft a reasonable business plan, proving they can make profits in the future with this $25B bailout package, then they're royally screwed.

Fiscal policy will not work as long as we are still suffering from the credit crunch. It's futile. Interest rates are already extremely low. So what other options do we have? Massive, and I mean colossal, investment in new technology. The automobile is so last century. Let's start pumping out flying cars. Just think of how many industries that will spur. Let's do something cool and crazy. We're Americans after all!

Anyway, this industry was just ready to fail. The recent economic crisis concerning the sub-prime mortgage lending only expedited its inevitable degradation. American corporations have become complacent with their technology, while the rest of the world is advancing at incredible rates; we have been completely surpassed in this area in the past decade. We failed; it's over. We need something new. The bailout will not help, even though it might secure people's jobs for another year, or two at most.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by cognoscente]

No. don't let it go bankrupt, let those who can build cars build them. Just build them better and put our tax dollars into making this happen.

Originally posted by cognoscente
reply to post by jfj123

 

Exactly. How are we going to oversee how the auto companies use this money? We can't feasibly do that. Anyway, a public hand in the private sector isn't such a good thing either, even if what they [the private sector] is doing isn't all that great... It leads to too many conflicting interests. The best way to do it is to let them file bankruptcy. Otherwise, they have two weeks until Congress adjourns this issue completely, and if they don't come up with some startling business changes by then, or at least draft a reasonable business plan, proving they can make profits in the future with this $25B bailout package, then they're royally screwed.

Fiscal policy will not work as long as we are still suffering from the credit crunch. It's futile. Interest rates are already extremely low. So what other options do we have? Massive, and I mean colossal, investment in new technology. The automobile is so last century. Let's start pumping out flying cars. Just think of how many industries that will spur. Let's do something cool and crazy. We're Americans after all!

Anyway, this industry was just ready to fail. The recent economic crisis concerning the sub-prime mortgage lending only expedited its inevitable degradation. American corporations have become complacent with their technology, while the rest of the world is advancing at incredible rates; we have been completely surpassed in this area in the past decade. We failed; it's over. We need something new. The bailout will not help, even though it might secure people's jobs for another year, or two at most.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by cognoscente]

Keep in mind that filing for bankruptcy means the big 3 go away. They close their doors forever. Every serious economist is saying they won't come back from bankruptcy so all those millions of people will be out of work, the economy in the US will all but collapse. Does that sound OK to you?

Look, I'm not crazy about bailing out either the auto industry or the financial institutions but it's a necessary evil to keep us out of a depression and to keep Michigan from sinking completely.

reply to post by jfj123


I agree, but their future success isn't going to be a sure thing unless we get a promise from those companies saying that they are capable of turning a profit with this bailout loan. I just hope they've learned their lesson. Then again, rewarding someone for failure tends to promote even more failure. I still haven't heard anyone mentioning a foreign takeover. What's with that? Wouldn't that at least solve the unemployment problem if they were to become bankrupt?

But yeah, back to my point. Flying cars, seriously.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by cognoscente]

Big 3 automakers deserve to be raked over the coals, if for no other reason than flying 3 corporate jets to Washington to beg for a bail out! The would have gotten more sympathy if they would have carpooled (unless they chose and "evil" SUV).

its not like congress has a clean record on flying.

www.washingtontimes.com...

The rules for congressional travel on military aircraft are contained in Defense Department Directive 4515.12.

Congressional access to military passenger jets is generally restricted to official trips abroad, or for domestic flights to military bases or events to which the Pentagon invited the lawmaker

My wife said if The tax payers bail out the big 3. then all tax payers shoud get a free car. no string attached it's out money anyway. let's get somthing in return.

I say let the Government go Bankrupt! It has the head of the Snake for for the people.
We started this government from scratch and now all they want is our scratch!
The people made it and we can kill it.
Then we can start over from scratch and get our freedoms back

Originally posted by Trazom
Would it be out of line to require all big 3 hoohahs to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand;

Out standing book! as well as "The Fountain Head". Quite "dry" in places, but the logic is well explained in how at basic level free enterprise will create new wealth, for the best creation of wealth...? I do really believe in a "class less society". I want every one to be filthy rich.. Its an old book very relivent still, and done the best to explain free enterprise; the generation of new wealth, I have ever read.

Concerning of the very methods to produce, NOT redistribute wealth, but create more wealth, for every one. Written about about 1940, its still quite true. give or take, and has to me made incredible sense. I believe in the so called "classless society". As a die hard capitalist with an enormous ego, at least I freely admit it.

People who produce work deserve to reap the rewards of their effort. People at the mercy of corporate idiots, deserve better.Such abuse of workers and yes shareholders, I mean good God!, how stupid can they be? hey my God! private jets... Should they milk the tax payers if the powers that be go along, were in very are in such deep pig-poop. deep crap, the "imperial wizerds" or is it lizards of the auto industry will if they fail. US automakers have no idea how to get out of this. So much more then just obscene, and makes us all "mooo" until we give all we have, or be cut up for food, not to mention eaten alive, and of course your WIDE AWAKE.

AND STILL they think its OK to be armed robbers, leaving bodies every where. Armed robbers? think its still OK to ream all of us.? Yes they do. They are holding us all, and not just the US hostage. To me thats terrorism.

The criminal $100 million stock options?, no capacity to do what they must? The grand Pubar's with the private jets? Fly coach until you pay back in full at least, and of course intrest to the tax payers. Better to make a profit first. sell them those private jets at the very least you get $25 million a piece, a "cheap retread corporate jet will give you, $5, 10 million. Why do I think they spared no expense, or by now still have them?

The CEO criminals in the motor city? are clueless given crimes they are so much worse then a mugger. Hear me Detroit? by holding us all, and the bloated ones don't act with any concern for our people or country, the impact? decency? Just try common decency. Try think of the for once, a very simple act of decency. They MUST keep expense down, re-tool in at least two years, and good gods at least build something our people can use keep expense DOWN, stop lying, cheating. The government money? (Meaning ours of course) are at the mercy of these $#%^* common thief, make muggers look a nun. They expound terror, now isn't that terrorism?

Thet are holding, the damn nation and world, with extortion, and real threats of disaster STOP! we have in most developed nations the option of capitalism still the very best economic system. (politics, is not an economic system to not mention just those here in the frozen north. my Nation. and others. democratic nations, (as well as democrat small "d"). We need in the US to really nail these SOB's. Appoint a special prosecueter, special master to mean severe monitoring with every thing they do. Everything, a special is news they, its our money, and keep people actually working for a living. A special administrative is used from probate to audits to crimes.

We do this with banks, run-of the mill criminals, probate, etc. This is not socialism, its saving every one's collective butt.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by arbiture]

Originally posted by arbiture

Originally posted by Trazom
Would it be out of line to require all big 3 hoohahs to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand;

Out standing book! as well as "The Fountain Head". Quite "dry" in places, but the logic is well explained in how at basic level free enterprise will create new wealth, for the best creation of wealth...? I do really believe in a "class less society". I want every one to be filthy rich.. Its an old book very relivent still, and done the best to explain free enterprise; the generation of new wealth, I have ever read.

Concerning of the very methods to produce, NOT redistribute wealth, but create more wealth, for every one. Written about about 1940, its still quite true. give or take, and has to me made incredible sense. I believe in the so called "classless society". As a die hard capitalist with an enormous ego, at least I freely admit it.

People who produce work deserve to reap the rewards of their effort. People at the mercy of corporate idiots, deserve better.Such abuse of workers and yes shareholders, I mean good God!, how stupid can they be? hey my God! private jets... Should they milk the tax payers if the powers that be go along, were in very are in such deep pig-poop. deep crap, the "imperial wizerds" or is it lizards of the auto industry will if they fail. US automakers have no idea how to get out of this. So much more then just obscene, and makes us all "mooo" until we give all we have, or be cut up for food, not to mention eaten alive, and of course your WIDE AWAKE.

AND STILL they think its OK to be armed robbers, leaving bodies every where. Armed robbers? think its still OK to ream all of us.? Yes they do. They are holding us all, and not just the US hostage. To me thats terrorism.

The criminal $100 million stock options?, no capacity to do what they must? The grand Pubar's with the private jets? Fly coach until you pay back in full at least, and of course intrest to the tax payers. Better to make a profit first. sell them those private jets at the very least you get $25 million a piece, a "cheap retread corporate jet will give you, $5, 10 million. Why do I think they spared no expense, or by now still have them?

The CEO criminals in the motor city? are clueless given crimes they are so much worse then a mugger. Hear me Detroit? by holding us all, and the bloated ones don't act with any concern for our people or country, the impact? decency? Just try common decency. Try think of the for once, a very simple act of decency. They MUST keep expense down, re-tool in at least two years, and good gods at least build something our people can use keep expense DOWN, stop lying, cheating. The government money? (Meaning ours of course) are at the mercy of these $#%^* common thief, make muggers look a nun. They expound terror, now isn't that terrorism?

Thet are holding, the damn nation and world, with extortion, and real threats of disaster STOP! we have in most developed nations the option of capitalism still the very best economic system. (politics, is not an economic system to not mention just those here in the frozen north. my Nation. and others. democratic nations, (as well as democrat small "d"). We need in the US to really nail these SOB's. Appoint a special prosecueter, special master to mean severe monitoring with every thing they do. Everything, a special is news they, its our money, and keep people actually working for a living. A special administrative is used from probate to audits to crimes.

We do this with banks, run-of the mill criminals, probate, etc. This is not socialism, its saving every one's collective butt.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by arbiture]

[edit on 25-11-2008 by arbiture]

[edit on 25-11-2008 by arbiture]

[edit on 25-11-2008 by arbiture]