Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

forgive me for not being able to read the whole artical but im pressed for time heh the whole working to much stuffs really starting to catch up to me

any who heres my 2 cents on the auto industry iv lived in MI my whole life.
i have many friends that work for factories in my town (Howell) that do alot of work for the big 3 or companies that supply the big 3 with parts ect. (there are at least 3 or 4 in my town and more in Brighton the town next to me). Now in my opinion if any part of the big 3 goes under people thousands of people like me will be screwed. the factories have already been shutting down left and right or cutting back and i mean way back going from 3 shifts of 85 workers to on 12 hour or less shift.

dont get me wrong im not trying to pull the "wo is me" card here but put your self in my shoes 20 years old and living back with my dad because theres no work hell its hard to get into a mcdonalds any more around here. go to school is what your going to say next i bet, well for you out there that arent 20 its not exactly that easy. ever tried pulling a loan with no credit haha not going to happen. so dont be to quick to pull out the axe and cut off the head of the giant because some of us in my neck of the woods rely on it.

so now i can go to explaining why GM FORD and DAIMLER got them selves it to the perdicament in the first place once is thinking they are god. heh quite frankly they dont care about how good there cars are nore do they care what kind of gas milage they get because they know the american family is going to by it ether way. hell the use government told them they hat to meet a 23mpg standerd by 2013 or something like that why not now?

but i have to say what really sealed the fate of the car companies was the union, and the sad part is most people in america dont even know how bad they are or that they were even part of the problem. see when you pay some 55 year old bum 60 bucks an hour to run a line or sweep a floor thats where you have problems. they signed a damn agreement that said they have to pay a worker is full wages for up to 2 years....2YEARS if they get laid off. i mean come on thats just the stupidest thing i have ever herd of.
they sleep on the job all the time iv witnessed it my self my old mans company did work at the plants. they would sabatash his site to get the steel cutting smoke to poor into the shop so they could have a day off.

its greedy ignorant groups of people like that that caused this industry to fail. so now that you have a little more of the facts that people dont always tell you mabe you cant me a fair judgment as god me i have to start looking to move out of the state because if this does go down every one i know is doomed to the unemployment line if they even qualify for that.

thats my 2 cents take it as you will

sin,
Neonine

Originally posted by cognoscente
As things are heading, there will be a massive redistribution of wealth to other parts of the world. Only by embracing globalism, free trade, and competition (we've forgot what this means) can we ensure the financial success of our country.

I agree. But then don't complain about your 401k. This redistribution means you may lose money. It's not confined to corporations. It also hits you in your pocketbook.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by astron1000]

reply to post by tdubz
Thanks for the links but I drive the streets everyday, and in friends and family members domestic cars. They are quite better than they were 10 years ago I must say.

That is the problem though. I remember saying that with everyone else in the late 90's about Big 3 products.

And today they are without question 10 years behind each competing import of the following: Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Audi, BMW, MB, VW, and I now have to admit Hyundai.

This is without question.

reply to post by astron1000


The cars can be made in America which will mean plenty of American jobs. Why should we give money to companies that have more fat then they're willing to trim? It doesn't make sense.

If they're going to give any company money, they can make them build them in America.

Detroit can survive, but only if they make a paradigm shift of their business model. That's not going to happen if they are bailed out.

Originally posted by FX44rice
reply to post by astron1000

 

No one is implying that no jobs would be lost. Yes there will be pain of unemployment and failed subsidiary businesses all the way down to restaurants and bars near auto hubs and plants etc. So what?

Propping up failed businesses is not free market capitalism. Out with the old in with the newer, better, more eager and aggressive business model.

What you are proposing is Socialist Fascism. You are afraid of a collapse, depression, adapting. It is needed to flush out our failures. Believe me, the intelligent, aware, adaptive, and aggressive entrepreneurs see much opportunity on the other side of a collapse.

Adapt, get used to a new system, maybe not as good as the past. But it is inevitable and we can't stop it. Opportunity will still exist for those who are aware and learn the new game.

I hope you enjoy the ride.
I am not proposing Socialist Fascism. I am proposing an emergency bailout that address a problem in our entire economy that I have never seen in my sixty plus years. But let's try it your way and watch the country go in the dumper. What about those who are beyond learning the new game. Those who have already worked their 30 or 40 years. Should we just watch them dry up and blow away?

reply to post by neonine
Yes you are correct. But it is also the Execs who have caved in to the UAW contract demands contract renewal after contract. Thus thinking they would never be threatened buy imports. There negotiating was "we'll just add another $100 on per unit to satisfy your demand UAW"

Beyond that it is a whole lot of dynamics that led to failed business model in 21st century world. Image high on that list. Marketing the consumer into profitable units became difficult.

Originally posted by duster
Those who have already worked their 30 or 40 years. Should we just watch them dry up and blow away?

If they worked 30 or 40 years at those wages and benefits then they should have set themselves up for retirement by now. If they still have tip top skills and they are worth what they've been getting paid, they should have no problem finding a job eventually when things turn around.

There is no free lunch, at least not all the time.

Originally posted by astron1000
Losing the Big 3 means losing thousands of small parts manufacturers. Losing them means the end of AMERICAN car parts suppliers. You won't be able to get that replacement brake pad. Why? Because the small company in Ohio that makes that brake pad just went out of business. Because their major client went bankrupt.

How much do you propose we give the autos? How many dollars will keep them at a break even level, and for how long?

Letting the US automakers go bankrupt will doom the fuel-cell and electric car in the US. the foreign car makers will have no incentive to make electric or fuel cell cars if the have no competition from the US automakers.

They also will not have access to the research and patents for the fuel cell and battery tech of US companies.
So they will have to steal this tech and then they would be banned by customs from importing these car into the US under US patent protection laws.
The Chinese have long counterfeited US patent protected products when they are found at US ports they are seized and destroyed.

This would cause any new American clean car technology to be sold to companies overseas and the jobs in this technoligy will go with it and not stay in the US

reply to post by duster
No. I don't wish for fresh college grads to enter a jobless economy either.

But bailing out the Big 3 will not prevent any of this, at all. It will make our problems worse. You need to understand that there are a couple more much more disasterous shoes to drop in this economic meltdown.

Next is collpase of CMBS Commercial Mortgage-Backed Securities (commercial real estate defaults)

Then within a year Dollar crisis (collapse of dollar)

Are you ready for a ride? Cover your nuts cause there getting kicked in hard my friend, and bailing out Big 3 won't help you.

reply to post by FX44rice


i just wanted to remind every one out there that if this goes down that it actually effects real ever day people most of which dont even work for the big 3

the news has a way of desensitizing this kinda of information

also this being so close to me its kinda strikes a nerve when it look like the rest of america throws up there arms and said to hell with you

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
reply to post by astronaut

 

The cars can be made in America which will mean plenty of American jobs. Why should we give money to companies that have more fat then they're willing to trim? It doesn't make sense.

If they're going to give any company money, they can make them build them in America.

Detroit can survive, but only if they make a paradigm shift of their business model. That's not going to happen if they are bailed out.

They can change. Make them change. Tie the bailout money to them making these changes Changes have to be made from top to bottom. It has to encompass things from executive officer perks and bonuses to the control of unions in the industry. Everybody has to step back and be willing to give ground in the restructuring of the industry. I just don't think we have to let the companies fail in order to address these issues. I just don't think you realize how far reaching these failures will be,

I agree with neonine if this goes down, everyone will notice,i smell fear and panic ,Asian markets followed the DOWn,i am taking tomorrow off to see where this goes,below 8000.bad news indeed

reply to post by neonine
I live in Royal Oak, MI. I understand what you see. However, there is no "safe haven" anywhere in the US or world to escape this economic meltdown. Everyone, millionaire to blue-collar will get hurt. Some will get killed and some will lose arms and legs (not literally but financially).

However, with our new Pres elect I can say without a doubt, those that do not work and are non-productive members in society will be Greatly Rewarded and not feel an ounce of stress from our economic meltdown.

reply to post by duster


i fully agree with what your saying duster

as for astronaut i don't think you really do understand how many people in Michigan this effects not just Detroit. hell its affects Canada, Mexico, Europe Ford is a big company in Europe to don't forget about that

reply to post by FX44rice


i sure hope your right because from the point of view that we have on this situation it scares the living daylights out of me. especially me I'm just trying to start my life right now heh heh and let me tell you it doesn't look like that's going to go to well at all right now.

reply to post by Swatman


well, you gave me your personal experience, i provided you a link with over 52,000 people questioned.

I have owned nothing but fords my entire life. had a 91 escort with over 100,000 miles, never had to take it to the shop. 98 ranger with 60,000 miles, no problems whatsoever, (until it was totalled by a drunk driver lol) 2000 f150 with 65000 miles, and a 2003 f150 with 89,000. never had a single problem. in fact, everyone in my family has owned fords their entire life as well (dad used to work for ford) and i cant recall a single problem.

and i have friends who have tundras whose tailgates fall off, a tacoma with a bad frame (cant remember the exact problem, think it was rust maybe?) and another whose corolla is in the shop every other month after being only a year old.

chrysler sucks and everything they make is crap, dont bail them out. but ford in particular has been improving quality for some time now and just search the web and you will see that they are on par with the foreign companies. for those too lazy to look at the links i posted earlier, heres the top ten car manufacturers for 2008 according to the jd power vds (3 yr review)

1. Lexus
2. Mercury
3. Cadillac
4. Toyota
5. Acura
6. Buick
7. BMW
8. Lincoln
9. Honda
10. Jaguar

jd power iqs (intial quality after 90 days)

1.Porsche 87
2.Infiniti 98
3.Lexus 99
4.Mercedes-Benz 104
5.Toyota 104
6.Mercury 109
7.Honda 110
8.Ford 112
9.Jaguar 112
10.Audi 113

as you can see the scores are fairly close besides porsche. I only listed the top ten, but several more domestic brands were above the industry average in quality.

another side note to people out there that don't think this is that big a deal. iv been looking to move over seas and look for work while I'm young and Australia has always been on the top of my list of places to go. any who i listen to there abc news (like our national news but its on the radio 24/7) even are laying and ostridge egg over this one and there going to be the least effected.

I have been waiting for this to happen for some time, and have considered posting a thread on my thoughts. Not all the blame falls on the motor companies....

Much of the blame for this downfall lies on the American consumer.

For many years we have basked in the light of automotive superiority. Not all autos per se, but in the most legendary of all, the full-size pickup truck.

It has been a pillar of pride in the US, and an intrical piece of our economy that cannot be replaced.

Toyota Tundra sales outgrowing Ford, GM in Texas truck market

From this article dated January 18th, 2008:

Toyota Motor Corp. (NYSE: TM) has moved into Ford Motor Co. (NYSE: F) sandbox and has started smashing Ford's mighty sandcastles. That's right -- Toyota trucks, notably the Tundra full-size pickup, are taking market share left and right in the state of all truck states, Texas.

It was all fine and dandy when the Camry or Accord was the #1 "Car" in America, but now that the "bread and butter" of the American Auto Industry has fallen, it's game over.

And we let it happen. With American wallets leaning on a complacent "bigger is better" attitude, we let GM and Ford continue to pursue this market based on American pride, instead of being smart and moving to the future with vehicles that make more sense.

The last bastion of American automotive superiority has fallen, and the industry may never recover.

I had never had as large a laugh in my life when I saw a McCain/Palin sticker on the back of a Honda Ridgeline.

I couldn't help but think to myself, "way to be a "Conservative" patriot and send your money to Japan".

reply to post by neonine
You'll be fine. It is much better for you in the long run. Opportunities will be everywhere to ride a new economy skyward on the back side of a collapse.