I want socialism.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35


What's so bad about socialism?

Other than people on the short end of the stick for income wanting the rich to spread the wealth so they don't have to work as hard to live like them, nothing I suppose.

Socialism is for the lazy, plain and simple. It really is just that simple and there is nothing anyone can ever say or do to change that fact. It's for people who don't want to work hard enough to learn in school, to get top grades to better their future. It's for people who don't want to work 80 hours a week to become rich. It's for people who are middle class and third class and complain that they can't own the same 60 inche LCD widescreen HDTV that the first class can afford. Ultimately there is nothing wrong with socialism except for the inability to earn an income that you dream about. Who doesn't want to be rich? Well, you certainly can't attain it under socialism when the government takes it from you to give to some sap who sits at their government funded home and surfs their government funded internet all day instead of earning their way in life.

I'm glad to hear the standard of living is so great in other countries under socialism. Good for everyone that lives in those countries. I personally rather have the option to attain billions of dollars if I so chose to chase it. It's not about greed, it's about the freedom to do whatever the hell you want. It's about people who care to thrive by working to thrive and those that don't, don't thrive and suffer for their laziness by their own doing. We in America do not wish for government to call the shots. Government works for the people, not the other way around. Americans can take care of their own just fine. We do not require government to do it for us. The problem is the lazy bums we help out just take the money and waste it, never helping themselves out of poverty after aid is provided.

The problem with socialism is dependence on government to hold your hand through life. That may be fine and dandy for alot of people in the world, but I bet most of those people never consider this little question: Is life really worth living when someone else is telling me what to do? Is life worth living without freedom? That answer is a common no, all over the world, especially under dictatorships. The freedom of choice is the one thing every person on this earth cares for. They don't want anyone to tell them what they gotta do. They don't want to be enslaved.

But hey who cares right when you've got free health care, a home paid for by your fellow not so rich anymore rich guys and girls, and great food. You won't ever have to suffer living on the street. And all it cost you was some freedom you probably won't even miss anyway.

I seriously do believe in high quality of life for all mankind. But not at the expense of freedom. There is a better way and America does just that. The problem is the people not wanting to help themselves, and it's not government's role to help them stay bums.

reply to post by botiemaster


lol... you my friend are the reason America is in the toilet! The US is under the thumb of the government who is under the thumb of the corporate elite... saying socialism is for the weak... lmfao... do you think everyone has an equal shot at a "normal" life? What about people who has diability? Should they be left to fend for themselves? Do you think they want to strive for the "billions" you think you have a chance at? News flash... you'll never be a billionaire... just because Bill Gates became one or Warren Buffet or... the odds are stacked against you and everyone like you... that is to say, those who have the time to respond here on ATS and surf the net in the middle of the day.... sheesh...

we live in a society... do you pay for the police when yo call them? How about fire trucks? or your grade school... all socialist endevours... why? because you don't have the money to actually cover the cost involved in calling a fire crew to put out your fire... imagine in your world where you chose not to call them.. the fire leaps from your house onto mine... now i'm up in flames too but i'm a socialist and pay part of my earnings in the form of taxes as an insurance that someday i might need to call the firetruck... so you don't call because you don't believe in socialism and i do... in the end my costs just went up because you wouldn't help support your share of the potential burden... how short sighted can one be?

The effectiveness of the form of system being used is determined by the people who operate that system, not exactly what the system itself is.

All systems are good systems...in theory, even communism, granted that the leader/dictator is wise, passionate, caring and is seeking the needs and betterment of the people he/she serves.

It's not so much about the system, but who's in charge of the system. The people should be in charge of the system...but that's not the way it is it seems.

America has done a mighty fine job as painting itself as the de facto way of life. It uses media to spread propaganda and misinformation about countries that are a direct threat to America, Cuba being the perfect example. What do you know of Cuba? Cuba has a lot of problems, but also a lot of things America lacks...it is one of the top countires in the world, in terms of education. America, on the other hand...is basically considered one of the stupidest countries in the world. Health care/treatment is absolutely free to all citizens; whereas, in America...if you're not insured...too bad. The crime rate in Cuba is much, much, much lower than Americas'. It is considered to have the least amount of crimes committed in Latin America and most of the world...and is in fact, the safest Latin American country. Although, information regarding murder/rape rates have never been released by the Government. Take your pick of "freedom": (1) Crime free, free health care, free education no matter the cost/need, but with restrictions on what you do, how you do business...etc...OR (2) the American lifestyle, you pay for everything yourself, but you're free to party as hard as you want...(If you're poor...you know you're screwed with option 2). Decide which "freedom" you want.

Personally, any system America adopts means nothing to me, if the same people who are in power now(Yes, Barack included) are in charge of the new system.

Politics is a distraction...and it works very, very...as a matter of fact, it works a little too well. Few people see the bigger picture...because most argue and bicker about Democrats Vs. Republicans, Socialism Vs. yada yada yada Vs. more yadda yadda yadda, while all the Democrats, Republicans, left-wing and right-wing folk in power sip champagne together and drive each other around in their Benz'. If you continue this way and do not really see what is going on and realize that it is not the system that's the problem, but the people behind it who exploit it...you will not move forward. Because, in fact...many leaders operate on the guise of claiming to rule under "Insert-preferred-system here", while they really operate on their own system.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by sdrawkcabII]

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I just love how they say we are speading democracy when we are in fact NOT a democracy whatsover...Socialism is already here with k-12 schools..,police and most fire rescue services..> Why not put turn all those foreclosed houses that are emtpy into homes for the poor? why not give free basic health insurance for all? and basic food for all... I think socialism would actually help us move forward because instead of worrying about how to pay this and pay that.. we can focus instead on doing what WE WANT TO DO.. will it be like that for everyone no...many people will take advantage of it just look at welfare..another socialist concept..but considering we are the richest nation in the world... there is NO EXCUSE why there should be any homeless people or hungry people in the streets NO EXCUSE at all.

Personally I feel that, as others have said, the specific governance system in place is less important than its power structure and who has control over it.

My personal fantasy (emphasis on the fantasy so don't pick this apart too literally lol) as long as we're assuming that countries and currencies exist in this hypothetical scenario, would be a constitutional republic like we have now, still quasi-capitalistic, but with limits on how much individuals and families can earn, and any excess income above those limits going into a socialist job creation, education, and health care system. Those systems would thus be well funded enough to provide for better care than the homogenous, "one size fits all" approach that currently tends to result from socialized health care and similar programs. There would be enough funds to allow for individual and family tailored treatment and interdisciplinary specialty care for every citizen, and the same dynamism would be true of education and job creation. Eventually, once these systems were perfected and flush with cash, any excess taken from the people would be redistributed to everyone in equal amounts so that every citizen would have the same standard of living in time.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, my sad but - at least to me - inescapable sense is that in order for the rest of the world to prosper and be cared for (we are all human beings after all, and as Americans we do not have a greater right to a high standard of living than anyone else in my opinion) the standard of living in America has to go down. We can no longer continue to subsist at this standard of living at the expense of the rest of the world, in my view. That's why any form of socialism of socialism-like programs we end up with will likely be of poor enough quality that they will fail to live up to their potential, just as communism, and constitutional republicanism have done.

It isn't the system; it's the implementation. That's just my opinion, though.

Personally, I’d be happier if we had no currency, lived as one world, and divided resources equally between everyone, provided for everyone, and rather than penalizing those who would not or could not work, found things that they actually cared about and excelled at for them to contribute to the world with. I long for a day when a job isn’t a means of making a living, but solely a means of fulfilling one’s potential and pursuing one’s dreams and passions. I’ll be long dead before that day comes though, if it ever does. (Yes, I know this isn't a popular world view, and I respect the views of those who disagree, as ever.)

[edit on 11/20/2008 by AceWombat04]

Why so few privileged and so many poor. Is the world not big enough for all to be privileged. Why is there still hunger, disease, and war? Something is wrong, and capitalism/democracy is not changing anything for the better. Whether its socialism or some other form of human organization I don't care, as long as it protects every persons natural rights for food, shelter, and happiness. Talk about the 21st century... I wonder why human progress seems so slow now. Has consumerism the real face of "the free market" turned every one into corporate sheeple? Welcome to America home of the citizen-consumer!

Originally posted by sdrawkcabII


Cuba has a lot of problems, but also a lot of things America lacks...it is one of the top countires in the world, in terms of education. America, on the other hand...is basically considered one of the stupidest countries in the world.



Health care/treatment is absolutely free to all citizens; whereas, in America...if you're not insured...too bad.

The crime rate in Cuba is much, much, much lower than Americas'.

Although, information regarding murder/rape rates have never been released by the Government. Take your pick of "freedom": (1) Crime free, free health care, free education no matter the cost/need, but with restrictions on what you do, how you do business...etc...OR (2) the American lifestyle, you pay for everything yourself, but you're free to party as hard as you want...(If you're poor...you know you're screwed with option 2). Decide which "freedom" you want.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by sdrawkcabII]

1.) America has the best universities in the world. We fill the top university list. We are far from being a stupid country; we produce the top people in every field. Cuba doesn't come close.

2.) Health care is not free, and neither is education it all gets paid by taxes.

3.) Cuba dumped all its criminals on America. The government is repressive which is why there is low crime rate. Also why are Cubans coming to America if Cuba is so great?

4.) Poor people are not screwed in this country. If they are intelligent and do well in school they can get a scholarship to a college. Or they can get a job and go to night school like me. Most just don't care and suck welfare.

I know some people who are on welfare and have 4 kids. They get 48 thousand a year to do nothing. Not to mention free health care paid by me.

You have zero idea how repressive Cuba is, and what happened to people under the revolution. Political opposition is quickly suppressed and people are spying on each other. I guess you think 1984 is a good thing if you like Cuba so much.

Cuba allowed Russia to station missiles on their island if you remember. We still sell food to them; relations are opening up.

Sorry, you really don't belong here if you think Cuba is a good model of government.




[edit on 20-11-2008 by hadjimagnet]

reply to post by botiemaster


There is another side to this story my friend. Why does a rich man need to make billions of dollars yearly? When is the rich mans excess enough? We are taught in kindergarten to share. I think the majority of rich people missed this class. It is true that America already follows socialist leanings. The financial bail out is an example of that. Things need to change dramatically in this country and if that means we become MORE socialist then so be it. I would happily share and sacrifice to have a healthier, more balanced community to live in.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Agreed. For those of you that fear we are giving the government that control by being socialist, well we have already given them that power. YES WE! The problem is is that most and a lot of people aren't willing to learn to be independent completely of government. A salesman can always find a reason for why you should buy his product and convince you that you are without if you do not buy it. Slowly we allow ourselves to become dependent on things we previously lived without. The problem is we are thinking in the wrong direction. IE: We should have a socialist economy, government. We are our own government and need to stop handing the power over to those that think for us. There is a lot to it but we have created this. YOU AND ME! Its up to us to fix it!

Personally I think the keyword here is balance, capitalisme in itself is not a bad thing, it keeps people motivated to work, by rewarding those that do, A key element missing in de socialistic system.

Pure socialisme does not reward hard work so why should you, the soviet union found that out to, so they intoduced free markets into their system and their economie started working again.

On the other hand capitalisme rewards work but has no mechanisme to take care of the poor, and other matters that we think make a country a good place to live.

Neither system by itself seems to works, that's why the governement raises taxes to take care of those matter. Most country's allready have both systems incorporated, and depending on the what they call themselfselfs, they have shifted there "balance" bar more to the left (socialisme) or the right (capitalisme).

The US I think could use a little more socialistic "slide" to the left, to raise the living standard of the poor, and making it harder on the rich. It would impley more rules and regulation, for the businesses, which means more rules for them, but would probably lower crime rates, which would lower they need for police control.

They actual form of how a governement is composed and how it's chosen is really no all that much of infuence on the capitalisme/sociale issue, it's just about who decides.

Originally posted by cindy22761
reply to post by botiemaster

 

There is another side to this story my friend. Why does a rich man need to make billions of dollars yearly? When is the rich mans excess enough? We are taught in kindergarten to share. I think the majority of rich people missed this class. It is true that America already follows socialist leanings. The financial bail out is an example of that. Things need to change dramatically in this country and if that means we become MORE socialist then so be it. I would happily share and sacrifice to have a healthier, more balanced community to live in.

He doesn't need to, he wants to. When it comes to money, there is no such thing as an excess. The only people who believe in excess money are those who aren't willing to go out and earn it for themselves. Sharing is not the same as stealing. If someone works for there money and you take it from them, you are stealing. Sharing is a choice; stealing is not.

This thread seems to be about the desire for compassion from government. Compassion is a human quality. But we are a government of laws not men. Compassion cannot be written into law because decisions and exceptions must be made.

Laws are not "fair" they are just laws. That's the first thing you hear in law class. They should be applied equally regardless of life situation. The application should not be made with "sensitivity" for those who are in lower/higher situations.

For government to be compassionate it must be embodied in a human. We had that form of government once, the human was King George. We decided against "compassion" from government in 1776.

We had socialism once too. In the first colonies everyone got the same income, equally divided. Since it made no difference if you got up early or slept late, no one would work. The settlements did not begin to show profit until each person was given their own plots to work.

You can't go into your neighbors house, take their property, then give it to your favorite charity. It is immoral to vote to have government do it for you.

What's the answer? We have one man one vote. We need one man one dollar in income taxes. Income to run government should come from those who spend not those who invest. That's what the value added tax in Europe does.

Money invested provides jobs. We penalize investment that shows a profit.

reply to post by switching yard


Keep in mind that Norway has less then 5 million people, the US is a different kind of beast. Relate countries that are about the same size as the US & you'll see, we're still number 1!

Originally posted by zephyrs

I can't agree with any type of redistribution of wealth. It makes no sense to penalize someone for their success no matter how unfair you make think it is. People need to stop being so envious and worry about themselves instead of going gah-gah-goo-goo over what everyone else has.

Well we allowed redistribution of wealth in one direction for the entire history of America.

America has allowed the most powerful people in the world to manipulate the system in order to become MORE powerful.

Success built on evil, lies, and pain is not any kind of success I'm going to respect.

You can call it anything you want, but I support evening out this #ed up situation, because right now it is so disturbingly one sided that people can't even SEE that they are subjugated.

First of all, socialism will not work for first world countries where people are no longer used to tilling and sweating every single day.

Socialism will only work in smaller countries which people who are willing to work hard. Such as in Japan or Korea.

The real drawback of socialism is simply this concept of "equality" which does not exist in reality.

I'm kinda in a mixed bag with this. The Utopia Society that everyone wishes for won't happen because of the sheer fact that our leaders would screw it up. The areas here have been robbed by unfettered Capitalism or Corporatism. The manufacturing sector is gone, mom and pop businesses are gone. The only thing left is decaying buildings with the other section of town being converted into low paying conglomerate retail jobs. It says a lot that the highest paying career opportunities now is nursing and way below that is Wal Mart employee and convenience store managers.

Some things do need to be changed here. Health care should be something all people receive. Since the decline of this area from high paying manufacturing and self started businesses to low paying conglomerate retail there isn't much money to be had even if one is motivated. The best one can aspire to in this area is to become a manager at a Fast Food place or a nurse. Here are three examples of what this area is all about.

My dad was forced to retire early from his company because he had a heart attack and was perceived as being a strain to their insurance premiums. On retiring he was offered a Cobra insurance plan that cost double his retirement so he had to pass.

He tried to apply for part time jobs just for insurance and either found out that these part time jobs do not pay insurance or if they did they didn't want to have someone with a heart condition because premiums would go up. Last year he had another heart attack and had to have major surgery. The total bill for this was 180,000.00. The hospital staff repeatedly tried to trick him into signing his home over as collateral!

He does his best with these bills and pays what he can, some months it is 25.00 others it is 150.00. His medications should run around 400.00 monthly. If not for his doctor sneaking him a grocery bag full of samples every month he would not take medication and end up back in the hospital for surgery number 3.

In our town there is also a man whom goes by "Crazy Bob". The guy should be getting some sort of help but, he wanders the streets setting fire to abandoned homes, closed churches, and closed businesses. He is captured whenever he does this and is put in a mental institution for a short while and released because there is no cash for him to be really treated.

If you meet him you know immediately he is deranged as he has the mental viewpoint of a child. He cannot receive any kind of disability help because he doesn't have a home to mail the check to and the fact that even if he did have a home he would probably burn it down. He is incapable of caring for himself. I feel sorry for him.

The last is a nod to my friend David that did try to succeed. He has an arts degree from the mid 90's but, there is nothing here to support that. He does art now when he has free time but, works two jobs in fast food because there is no way to get any recognition for arts in the area.

In some ways I feel he is cheated because he has done the school work and it should be a crime that his brilliant art talent is wasted. There is only one type of degree in the area that will get you any kind of decent paying job now and that is health care. When I checked Spartanburg Community College out that is the #1 field that people are going into for this area because nothing else will pay.

Across the border in Rutherford County last year the hospital was on the verge of closing because an estimated 95% of people that showed up had no health insurance and not enough income to pay for hospitals.


Strange days...

I AM a Socialist.

I AM PROUD OF THIS.

Why? I'll tell you.

First, for those of you who whine about not wanting people to "get lazy" and rely on "The Government" for everything, and still, STILL, complain about taxes (Legal and Constitutional--See the 16th Amendment and don't give me your "never ratified" garbage either, a cursory glance at Wikipedia proves this is not so), remember that this is the United States of America and our nation is, at its core, based on the Democratic principle of Government For, Of and By the People. Taxes are your DUTY as a Citizen to pay, because as a Citizen, you benefit from what the Government provides (or is supposed to provide). Please spare me your comments about "The Fed" this and "interest on the National Debt" that. You are a Citizen, you live in a Modern Society in the Industrialized World, and stuff needs to be paid for. Get over yourselves and your frontiersman fantasies.

Second, Socialist policies can SAVE this country.

Imagine universal healthcare for ALL Americans. Just imagine it. Try. Oh, I'm sure some of you will freak out about not wanting to pay for someone else, but the fact is, unless you're fortunate enough to be able to afford your own personal policy without going through your employer, you already ARE paying for someone else. That's what group plans and networks are all about--insurance companies "socializing" the costs of doing business throughout their customer base, while your employer "socializes" his healthcare costs by spreading it among all his employees (by getting as many as possible into Plan X so that he gets a discount package). The difference between that and universal, government-based health care is very simple: Insurance companies are in it for profit, and they will do whatever it takes to maximize that profit--refuse care, drop your policy, drown you with confusing paperwork and impossible legalese, and generally make your life a living Hell trying to figure the whole thing out. Your actual health and welfare are none of their concern as long as they get paid. The Government, by contrast, is not profit-based, and therefore a well-designed government-based universal health plan actually does have your actual health and welfare as its highest priority.

Not only does this save millions of Americans from a horrible risk, it also can help save our economy.

If we switch over to a universal health care system that's a gigantic load off the backs of American businesses. Employers who spend millions or more on employee health care plans would be free of that cost. Can you say extra revenue, boys and girls? How about higher profits? How about more jobs because employers can afford to hire more people? How about your employer not trying to control your life because your habits cost them extra on insurance? (I'm talking to YOU, Smokers!) How well would the Big 3 automakers be doing right now if they weren't saddled with the healthcare costs of their past and present workers? How many more people would be able to find good jobs because employers would have no incentive to deny employment to people with chronic health problems?

Lowered costs for employers.

No risk or fear of being dropped right when you need your coverage the most.

No risk or fear of being denied coverage altogether.

And, considering how much policies cost these days (my wife and I were looking because her coverage at work is being downgraded to an "HSA" by her employer to save money--care for both of us would approximately cost 45-50% of our combined annual income for coverage roughly equal to her old insurance) universal healthcare actually puts more money in citizens' pockets in the form of disposable income, which, if you have half a brain, you realize is the true engine of our economy. People who have no money can't afford things, things aren't bought, things that aren't bought aren't produced, things that aren't produced don't require people to be employed to make them. Vast millions of people with money they can spend on goods and services are the backbone of our economy, not the privileged few mega-rich elites who dole out a job here or a smattering of credit there. True national wealth comes from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Everybody wins except the corporate vampires who feed off the current (and obscene) for-profit healthcare system we have today. What a concept!

Best part is it doesn't even require higher taxes for the vast majority of Americans. All we have to do is get out of the war business, which, frankly, is right now the single biggest socialist program in America--the whole damn thing exists not for the security of American interests, but to line the pockets of the mega-rich Elite, who in turn manipulate events through their money and influence to ensure that pointless wars continue. It's corporate welfare at its most insane.

Universal health care will likely not happen in the next four years. Maybe not even the next eight. But, mark my words, if things keep going as they are, even the insurance companies will eventually want it--because there will be no one left who can afford their product, at least not at the levels they need to maintain their profits. The beast will starve, and then they'll be begging for bailouts just like all the rest of Corporate America--assuming Corporate America and the Elites who run it aren't hanging by their necks from street lights by then.

The Socialist Revolution WILL happen, either by force of law or by force of arms. I for one would prefer the former, because the latter creates a period of chaos where dictators can take control and make the worst nightmares of paranoid reactionaries a reality.

But it will happen.

And it will be the most important event in American history.

Socialism is a logical, natural progression for civilization to make.

It's about the true promise of America--that we really are all in this together, and we stand or fall as one. People who can't get that through their heads need to wake up to reality.

And the funny thing is, if it goes off right, I'll bet within a few years even the nay-sayers will realize just how good it can be.

And then the United States of America will finally begin to live up to the promise of its foundation.

[edit on 11/20/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by die_another_day
The real drawback of socialism is simply this concept of "equality" which does not exist in reality.

But it can. America's founding is based on this very principle. We just have to want it hard enough to make it happen.

reply to post by The Nighthawk


YES INDEEDY FEED THE NEEDY!

simply and mostly agreed.

No one has responded to the survey showing that many other first world countries have higher intergenerational upward mobility than the US. RESPOND.