Radical Homosexual Terrorism

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Shows the assumption to be completely false!?!?

Come on man. What are you talking about?

Your one isolated instance some how nullifies the well known nation wide persecution from the religious (primarily Christians) against LGBT in the US?? Your one isolated instance proves the FBI reports, the testimonies of gay ATS members, countless surveys from the gay community itself... to be completely false??

The USA doesn't orbit around your life man.

My "one little isolated instance" is consistent with what I have seen in the OBSERVABLE REAL WORLD for well over twenty plus years now. Which is more than I can say for the ACCUSATIONS that you insist throwing out by way of your stats and surveys and vitriolic "testimonies" from people who would have probably had problems with "organised religion" regardless of whether they were gay or not.

I'm NOT saying that gay people have not had their share of persection. But I AM saying that the gay community would do well to start placing some of that blame in other places where it belongs, rather than just heaping it all on to the Christians.

[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]

Originally posted by Lightmare

My "one little isolated instance" is consistent with what I have seen in the OBSERVABLE REAL WORLD for well over twenty plus years now. Which is more than I can say for the ACCUSATIONS that you insist throwing out by way of your stats and surveys and vitriolic "testimonies" from people

Oh my God. Accusations? Numbers don't lie.

More then you can say?...

They are not basing it on 'real world observations' as well?

So your testimony is 'real world observation' but their testimonies is just vitriolic rhetoric?

Yes. All these "hate crimes" I am whining about is just them being "vitriolic".

Note: I have said majority, and not all. I stand by this. Because of my 20+ years of observable experience. And the testimonies of the gay community, and the statistics from government officials..

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Oh my God. Accusations? Numbers don't lie.

More then you can say?...

They are not basing it on 'real world observations' as well?

So your testimony is 'real world observation' but their testimonies is just vitriolic rhetoric?

Yes. All these "hate crimes" I am whining about is just them being "vitriolic".

Note: I have said majority, and not all. I stand by this. Because of my 20+ years of observable experience. And the testimonies of the gay community, and the statistics from government officials..

You're missing the point, Lucid. I am well aware of all of the hate crimes done against gays. I am NOT disputing that. Neither am I saying that Christians have been completely innocent in their dealings with the gay communities. What I am saying is that the majority of violent hate crimes done against gays have been the product of non-religious social stigmas rather than religious beliefs. Again, that is based on what I have seen in the OBSERVABLE REAL WORLD.

Don't believe me? Try this experiment.

1. Put on your most gay looking outfit that you have in your closet on a Sunday morning.

2. Walk into a church, any church, and announce that you are gay. They may try to convert you. They may think you're a prankster and ask you to leave. In light of recent events, they may call the police. Or they may just ignor you. But you will most likely walk out of there with your life and limbs intact.

3. While wearing the same gay looking outfit, go to a really bad part of town and find a local bar. No, not a gay bar. A bar full of tough guys. Maybe full of rednecks, or African Americans, or maybe bikers. Walk into the bar and announce that you are gay and then see what happens.

I think you get the point.

Originally posted by Lightmare
My "one little isolated instance" is consistent with what I have seen in the OBSERVABLE REAL WORLD for well over twenty plus years now.

Anecdote does not equal evidence. Furthermore, you're making an ad hominem when you accuse the sources as being biased in any case. Both of which are nonsense.

I'm NOT saying that gay people have not had their share of persection. But I AM saying that the gay community would do well to start placing some of that blame in other places where it belongs, rather than just heaping it all on to the Christians.
[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]

Except the EX-tians gladly make themselves a target by prodding the Bear with a tazer.

Maybe this is what black people have a problem with; the fundamental inability to understand that people have been murdered just because they were different than us. From Black's being hung by trees by the KKK, to Gays being killed in Bars by people who "Is Good Krischuns".

I know that the urge to scream "It wasn't us, it was them!" And pointing at the ignorant, aggressive homicidal whackos who kill gays for their open sexuality is overwhelming. But how about you admit that those people are using EX-tianity as a Kludge to justify their bigotted behavior and take responsibility for the way your religion is represented.

reply to post by Lightmare


Seriously now. What point are you trying to make again. Clearly the biggest group of oppressors of gays is the Christians. There is no debate there. Does that mean that each and every Christian is a bad person? Each and everyone has opressed gays? No, it means the majority have done a pretty good job.

You try to knock that point down by telling us how you went to work after a gay guy quit?

Ok, you are right. The way you did nothing, were not there, helped in no way, and changed absoloutely nothing proves.....?

Oh, yes that is right. All Christians are gay loving hug-bunnies. It must be true because you went to work on Monday and did nothing.

Thanks for proving me wrong. I really messed up there but you set me straight didn't ya.

Originally posted by Lightmare

You're missing the point, Lucid.

What I am saying is that the majority of violent hate crimes done against gays have been the product of non-religious social stigmas rather than religious beliefs.

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is that when we look beyond you and I, and look at the 'real world observations' of the Nation at large, we see something else.

2. Walk into a church, any church, and announce that you are gay. They may try to convert you.

Because they believe I am wrong, immoral, unnatural, and falling short in the loving eyes of God if I don't repent and change my orientation. Yeah I know. I get it.

I think you get the point.

I get the point you want me to get. It doesn't change the numbers

Also, going to a bar in a "really bad part of town" and getting everyones attention and declaring anything would probably result badly. I challenge you to goto that same bar and declare to everyone there that you are a Christian and they are all sinners

I picked out an outfit, and took a pic, care to judge?

Originally posted by Lightmare


My "one little isolated instance" is consistent with what I have seen in the OBSERVABLE REAL WORLD for well over twenty plus years now. Which is more than I can say for the ACCUSATIONS that you insist throwing out by way of your stats and surveys and vitriolic "testimonies" from people who would have probably had problems with "organised religion" regardless of whether they were gay or not.

I'm NOT saying that gay people have not had their share of persection. But I AM saying that the gay community would do well to start placing some of that blame in other places where it belongs, rather than just heaping it all on to the Christians.

[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]

No, sorry. Nothing you said proves anything. There is more than enough data to back up the fact that the blame lies well at the feet of religion before any other group of people. You have not seen it in your 20 plus years? Awesom, I have not seem the Grand Canyon in my 30 pus. Does that make it not exsist by any chance?

Neither does your myopic world view do anything to diminish the verifiable facts about who has been attacking and hating gays. Care to tell me who funded prop 8? How many secular groups and how many religious groups spent money ensuring gays could not marry again?

I know, you are a christian and you did not give money to it, so...that did not happen either and I am just saying stuff to be spiteful right? Or does your life simply fail to reflect the facts of the country at large.

reply to post by TheColdDragon


Well then I'm gonna tell you just like I told Lucid.

Try this experiment.

1. Put on your most gay looking outfit that you have in your closet on a Sunday morning.

2. Walk into a church, any church, and announce that you are gay. They may try to convert you. They may think you're a prankster and ask you to leave. In light of recent events, they may call the police. Or they may just ignor you. But you will most likely walk out of there with your life and limbs intact.

3. While wearing the same gay looking outfit, go to a really bad part of town and find a local bar. No, not a gay bar. A bar full of tough guys. Maybe full of rednecks, or African Americans, or maybe bikers. Walk into the bar and announce that you are gay and then see what happens.


Go ahead and try that out and let me know how that works out for you. You should probably have one of your buddies get the whole thing on video. I will be needing proof, ya know.

Originally posted by Lightmare
You should probably have one of your buddies get the whole thing on video. I will be needing proof, ya know.

Considering you are overlooking proof that has already been provided for you, I don't see why you would be impartial to this social experiment.

reply to post by Lightmare


Your experiment has already played out. You can see the proof in court documents and FBI files as stated before. If I get all "gayed up" and go instigate some bar full of drunk bikers out in the boonies, will that change the overall stats? Will that disprove historical data? Nope, just get me a new boyfriend I do not want probably.

Seriously, you are asking someone to rig a test and show you proof of something that you can just read about already. Go ahead and look at who hurts gay people most in this country.

Let me know what you come up with.

If you have any trouble finding that data, come over, I have my outfit and I am not even gay. I am still willing to take my chances in every bar in the city like that before I would go around tellin 'em I am a Christian.

reply to post by Lightmare


I really don't care about your scenario, because suggesting someone do something also doesn't serve as evidence. Anecdote is not Evidence.

Your experience isn't evidence, it is Anecdote. My experience is not evidence, it is Anecdote. Now, as human beings, we tend to base a lot of our observations on our own experiences which are fundamentally limited in a cultural and societal view.

Since I happen to be a Christian, I'll formally apologize to all the Gays for what my religion has done to them... it is terrible that people have died, been treated poorly, and that your legal happiness was ripped away because of OUR fear of Gay people corrupting society and causing God to smite us. I am sorry, because my religion is to blame and if I claim a religion, I claim the responsibility of its mistakes.

So, I'm sorry.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Considering you are overlooking proof that has already been provided for you, I don't see why you would be impartial to this social experiment.

Your stats, surveys, and testimonies can be manipulated and tampered with in ways that this social experiment cannot. Further more, I suspect that you won't be trying my little experiment any time soon anyways. Why? Because you already know EXACTLY what will happen if you do.

Try it at the church full of Christians, and you will walk away unharmed.

Try it at the bar full of tough guys, and you will get your ass kicked.

It proves my point and you know it. Thats why you all keep yammering away with your excuses and shifting of the goal posts in this thread now. Because you know I'm right and you don't want to admit it. You want to just keep on blaming Christians for all the woes of the gay community without even blinking at the secular social stigmas that contribute just as much, if not more to your disadvantages than Christian doctrines do. Thats friggin' amazing.

reply to post by Lightmare

Further more, I suspect that you won't be trying my little experiment any time soon anyways. Why? Because you already know EXACTLY what will happen if you do.

Your social experiment I believe, would probably get me verbally attacked just about every time. And physically attacked about half the time. That's what I believe. Just like you don't believe that would be the case. We both have our personal takes on the matters. But I am trying to expand our personal biased views by looking outside of them.

Your stats, surveys, and testimonies can be manipulated and tampered with in ways that this social experiment cannot.

The fact that you are discounting FBI statistics as likely being 'tampered evidence' clearly demonstrates your bias. As if the authorities didn't have physical evidence, video and or sound capture, eye witness testimonies, interrogation of the 'perps', convictions for the crimes.. to back up their statistics Not all their stats were based on multiple choice tests.

As for the surveys.... You are essentially just calling them liars. Hey that's fine But you are asking us to believe your story (without any evidence) about how you defended the gay guy at your work, while the atheists agnostic types persecuted him. You wanted us to believe you right? And I did..

So extend the courtesy to other peoples testimonies.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lightmare
You want to just keep on blaming Christians for all the woes of the gay community without even blinking at the secular social stigmas that contribute just as much, if not more to your disadvantages than Christian doctrines do. Thats friggin' amazing.

Actually one of my points is that the strict adherence of modern Biblical interpretation is the primary root of that social stigma to begin with.

Here is a quote of mine from another thread:

My point was, the belief that homosexuals are sinful and wrong in their very nature, and are going to spend eternity in hell if they go un-repented, makes them sound hellish. Hence they are demonized and often attacked as such.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

[Go ahead and look at who hurts gay people most in this country.
Let me know what you come up with.]


I would say you hurt yourselves the most ..and you hurt eachother .....and deep in your hearts you know that it is dark and not light ...and because of your shame you tend to pass blame *to the Christians .....they are nothing but your sounding board ....but you know what ...that is a good thing as I see it ..because who else would put up with all that language abuse and still reach out for you to try and help you ... ...except those Christians who you think did everything to mess up your life ..which they do not live your life nor do they live with you ... so how could so much of your misery be their fault ? Your life is what YOU MAKE it ..if you dont like it then you have to change it ..no one else will ...YOU HAVE TO >......>>I have had a seriously messed up life too ..and It was never MY FAULT at the time ..I needed someone else to blame for my misery other than ME >>..until I realized it was me who needed changing ...and that my life would not change till I changed it ...but until I changed it ... it stayed everyone else fault but mine that my life had been so miserable ..............



[edit on 19-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


And I would extend the same reasoning to you Simplynoone.

You justify your fear and intolerance and distrust of homosexuals with religion, but it's really just a darkness inside yourself manifesting through religious belief.

It's fine if you feel this way. Just as it's fine I do. Opinions are our luxury.

But just so you know; I have no shame or ill feelings towards my bisexuality. I am happy with it. I am perfectly okay with it, morally and spiritually. I do not worry about my soul because of it. I believe in God still. Yet I do not seek repentance for it, or a conversion from you or your Church. I do not need it. I am a good moral man. I know this in my heart, and God knows it too.

FYI my parents and my family were great and still are

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
[Go ahead and look at who hurts gay people most in this country.
Let me know what you come up with.]


I would say you hurt yourselves the most ..and you hurt eachother .....and deep in your hearts you know that it is dark and not light ...and because of your shame you tend to pass blame *to the Christians .....they are nothing but your sounding board ....but you know what ...that is a good thing as I see it ..because who else would put up with all that language abuse and still reach out for you to try and help you ... ...except those Christians who you think did everything to mess up your life ..which they do not live your life nor do they live with you ... so how could so much of your misery be their fault ? Your life is what YOU MAKE it ..if you dont like it then you have to change it ..no one else will ...YOU HAVE TO >......>>I have had a seriously messed up life too ..and It was never MY FAULT at the time ..I needed someone else to blame for my misery other than ME >>..until I realized it was me who needed changing ...and that my life would not change till I changed it ...but until I changed it ... it stayed everyone else fault but mine that my life had been so miserable ..............



[edit on 19-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Ahhhh, the ignorance is denied so completely around here is it not. You are responding to my quote and addressing me as all gays. I already stated that I am not even one gay, let alone all of them. Please, when responding to my words, try to read all of them. Context helps.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Actually one of my points is that the strict adherence of modern Biblical interpretation is the primary root of that social stigma to begin with.

WRONG!!!

The social stigma is based on the fact that overly masculine tough guys view homosexuality as weakness. They view gay guys as weakling wimps that are good for nothing more than getting picked on and kicked around. They view homosexuality as threat to the ways of alpha male masculinity. Why? I really don't know for sure. But it has nothing to do with the Bible or anything religious for that matter.

Don't believe me? I challenge you again to try my little experiment. After you're done getting your ass kicked, ask the big, mean, masculine, biker dude why he hates you so much. He will probalby tell you that you are a girlie man and a wussy and a few other things which have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING Biblical. Either that or he will just kick your ass again.

Again...I think you get the point.

[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]

[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


If you like your life ..then go and live it ..it is short ...let those who are miserable and have nothing to do but sit around and blame christians for all the worlds misery do all the complaining ..........we Christians are always going to be around until we die or the Lord comes for us ..so why not just learn to get along with them and let them get to know YOU the person ..not you the Bisexual ..if your proud of it7 then why not just admit it and let the ranters rant and let it roll off one side of you to the other (Thats what I try and do when people get mad at me about my faith ) ...................you act like being gay is a religion or something ......defending it religiously ....instead of just letting it speak for itself ...and see if people will then just see you all as people ..not bi or gay or drama queen or whatever ..............



[edit on 19-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy


You justify your fear and intolerance and distrust of homosexuals with religion, but it's really just a darkness inside yourself manifesting through religious belief.

Wait a minute Lucid, you just got done saying that social stigmas against gays are CAUSED by strict adherence to religious beliefs. Here you are implying that people are using religion to justify a prejudice that they already have. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

[edit on 11/19/2008 by Lightmare]