Please tell me this bible verse does not mean what I think it does!

Originally posted by The Stand
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

So does that mean all churches should only teach from the New testament and we should forget Jesus' dad? Not to mention do you think Jesus would have been the savior of the new if it were not for the old?



[edit on 10-11-2008 by The Stand]

who ever showed you the proof that the bible is NOT man made.
The proof is the pudding, the pudding is the bible and the proof is the statements like this, so biased so outdated and so wrong for life at any point.

Can't trust them, the men who would become arroused by material possesion's.
The ones who loved and died for a shiny rock scare me.
Gold diamonds and other material's have been the true god on the altar and we we would kill rape and destroy just to hold it in our hands.
Scary stuff, and its what many of you research to find answers.
Search your self and answer you question through critical thinking.
What does sexual reproduction have to do with anything but reproduction?

Lets meditate find our truth and love for eachother.
Enough with their endgame of shiny rocks being worth more than a single life.
Life is the true shiny rock. Not some carbon crystal, but the glimmer of an eye.
Semper fi

Originally posted by The Stand
After reading the bible and some other very interesting books, I have been contemplating that the bible may have been a plan to take over the world physically, mentally and spiritually. A lot of verses seem to imply harm to anybody who does not think like this god wants. Other verses I do not even want to think about because they make me sick as to think god is telling these people to do what I think he is. For example, what does this verse mean? Numbers 31:17-18 “now kill all the boys and all the women who have had sexual intercourse. Only the little girls may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”

[edit on 9-11-2008 by The Stand]

what's the chapter about? what's the full context of what you plucked out?
The Old Testament is basically a set of rules for the Jews to follow, they were God's chosen people, the verse probably has something to do with how they were to react to a rival race that was trying to enslave them??

I'm not an expert but I know the O.T. is all about how God dealt with his chosen people, what they were to do, other parts of the O.T. were prophecies about future events such as JESUS.

To the OP I don't know what you think it means, but I can tell you what it does mean - it means kill everyone except the virginswho you are to marry and assimilate into the people of Israel. A simple look at the Scrptural study and history shows this was hyperbole as manifest in the Midianites reconquest of the Israelites within a Generation as described in Judges.

The context in so many of these regulations of Numbers and Leviticus is key. A relatively small group of people are forming a nation for success in such an enterprise certain things need protected: the area of territory claimed (hence all the warring), the health of the people (hence all the food prescriptions), the stability of the unit of people (hence all the "sexual" regulations). Now a lot of this offends modern sensibilities (sensibilities formed by Christianity I might add) but the context is king here. Some, it seems, would prefer the following scenario:

"And lo YHWH sneaked the people out of Egypt without harming anyone and the Egyptians did wave them off and said "Sure, it's no problem off you go." And YHWH's people did find themselves in a new land which already had it's own indiginous culture. It was a bit odd, the things they worshipped and did, and they were quite threatening so YHWH said "Now don't be beastly, remember mutual respect, I know I promised milk and honey but there's a nice ditch over there for you to live in." So the people went and lived in the ditch and wondered how they should pass the time and YHWHsaid "Do what you like". So they slept with whomsoever they liked which caused a bit of friction and some heads were knocked in by rocks and some people noticed they were getting strange rashes. They all excreted so much that within a short while there was, by the water hole, a festering pile of their refuse. However, it was covered in some lovely bugs and the fresh water oysters seemed to really enjoy it so they tucked in and lo a lot of them fell ill and died. And so there came to pass the breakdown of family bonds and jealousies over who was the most popular man and woman for sexual gratification and the people soon divided against themselves. They weren't able to do much because they were crippled by disease and malnutrition and the mutually respected indigenous population of the neighbouring population did look at them and said unto themselves "Quick lads, they're weak and divided, lets destroy them." And so it came to pass. And YHWH said "Oh ... that didn't go quite as I planned."

reply to post by The Stand


the old testament is old covenenant. the new testament is the new covenant.

the o.t. is mostly jewish tribal law (some of it harsh, but necessary for the time), and the usual parables; life stories.

it is now okay to eat pork, hold a womans hand who is menstrating, etc...

christianity is very simple, obey the 10 commandments and recognise the christ as the messiah.

and thats all.

any questions?

This is my view, and not a religious standpoint from which I intend to launch any attack whatever: Jesus was this guy who made a bunch of suggestions that seem to make a lot of sense even today.

Many of the old testament bible writers made sense here and there, but others were just plain loco - and often criminally violent.

The God who characterises much of the Bible's "old testament" (to be fair, it's all pretty old by now) was created to endorse the actions that an Israeli tribe was perpetrating at that time. Genocide is clearly not a 20th century invention. The God of the "new testament", though, is an altogether nicer old geezer, as described by the people who tell us what Jesus' thoughts were, and designed to reflect a range of far more wholesome philosophies.

By my reading of the material, the two Gods are definitely different characters, a complete re-casting by people living in different times and with different needs.

As with all other reading, from spelling books to that frightfully helpful wikipoedia, don't believe every word. Writers are only human, too, you know.

[edit on 11/11/08 by hidatsa]

reply to post by feydrautha


Ummm, yes, I do have a question. If I need to uphold the 10 commandments, does that also mean the punishments that go with them if someone breaks them?: (sorry, only got to # 7):
1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.
2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.” Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.”
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.
6th. Commandment, Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill”. Strangely enough this is a commandment despite all the punishments that require death in the New Testament and the Old Testament. How can thou not kill when thou is commanded to kill at the same time?
7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”.

reply to post by Jim Scott

They all identify Jesus as the member of the Triune God. There are some cults and sects that do not, and are not regarded as Christian. For example, Mormons (aka Latter-Day Saints). They do not believe in the Triune God. Their Jesus is an exalted man.

The Triune is a Catholic doctrine,yet the word(s) triune and holy trinity exist nowhere in the bible.It is also their doctrine that those who don't believe in it are not Christians,so any other faith practicing this are practicing Catholic doctrine,not there own.

Mormons do not believe in the Holy Trinity,neither do we believe that Jesus is an exalted man,we believe that he is the Son of God sent to save mankind.




And for all those who like to go on about how many different copies of the bible exist from ancient times and are using it as evidence as the truth of the bible,you do realize that many of them contain verses that contradict the bible we have today,and that they also have different teachings and doctrines?? Its no good saying you have evidence if you haven't actually read it all.



[edit on 11-11-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by zyrktec

mosaic law was fulfilled through the life and death of christ therefore fulfilled, therefore finished.

This is incorrect.Follow the link for more details.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Anyone who obeys the Bible, should obey all of it, and stop putting their own interpretation on it.

I love how Christians begin to school me on the Bible...as if they really know what's going on. They say we take things out of context...but then begin to put their own interpretations on the stories to make the stories seem right. They put their own interpretations on things that God has left nothing up to be interpreted. They so want it to be "right", that they make it "right"...because God is supposed to be perfect.

It's rediculous. I asked once...and I still do...why did God test Abraham and Job, if he is supposed to know what lies in their hearts already.
In regards to Abraham's test, I was told that it was not a test for God to know anything, but a test for Abraham to know. And, it says right there in the Bible, that an Angel came to Abraham and stopped him from killing his son, because God now knows that Abraham fears him, indicating that God did not know this before. They put their own interpretation to things that need not be subjective. God said it himself...he didn't know where Abraham's heart truly lied...so he tested him. He is supposed to know though, he knows everything.

People who question the Bible usually take things as face value. They do not add anything to the story, or try to make it seem "right" by coming up with things that the story doesn't even speak about. It is the die hard, thoughtless Christians that do this. In fact...in a sense, by doing that...you admit to yourself that your Bible is a joke. You so badly do not want to see it for what it is...you put your own twist on things in order to have the Bible retain it's "righteousness".

And, if that is the case, you might as well go write your own Bible then.

And to the folks who keep talking about the Old testament and the New testament...need I remind you that the same very Bible teaches that it is the same, unchanging God that performs acts in both testaments. The testament talk is rubbish. If you are going to follow your Bible, stop making excuses for it. Because, at times, your unnecessary excuses makes it seem more "pure" than it really is. The real mistake God made was letting simpletons write his Bible. I'm certain some of the Christians here on ATS can do a much better job...it seems.

Originally posted by feydrautha
reply to post by The Stand

 

the old testament is old covenenant. the new testament is the new covenant.

the o.t. is mostly jewish tribal law (some of it harsh, but necessary for the time), and the usual parables; life stories.

it is now okay to eat pork, hold a womans hand who is menstrating, etc...

christianity is very simple, obey the 10 commandments and recognise the christ as the messiah.

and thats all.

any questions?

So are you saying that Jesus was not a Jew?

He would have eaten pork etc ?

If this is so, clearly it runs contrary to bible scriptures, in that Jesus was most definately a Jew and would have not only observed the laws and practices but indeed would have known them inside out. This was clearly attested to throughout the scriptures.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets." Jesus, Matthew 5:17

It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17


The bible is quite clear, Jesus was a practicing Jew (if there could be such a term then) you either were a Jew or you weren't.

His mother was a Jew his brothers and sisters were Jews both his stepfathers were Jews, and by the look of it, his (alledged) biological absent father could well have been a Jew who took allegience with rome.

Given the fact that if you cut jesus like salami he would have had Jew written right down his middle, and he observed Judaic laws, whilst emphatically telling listners the law has not changed.

How the hell is it possible that Jesus would for example condone the eating of swine? Please bear in mind that Jesus' audience and followers were most definately Jews.

The scriptures clearly shows how Jesus went out of his way not to break the law let alone encourage others to, lest he be immediately arrested by the via corrupt elements within the sanhedrin.

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


Great post, Here's a (IMO) most excellent debate I believe you may appreciate, between a very intelligent atheist, a Jew that doesn't seem to want to upst christianity and a Catholic indian with agnostsic tendancies.

Birlliant discussion

Jesus was a Jew sacrificed so to make a human flesh Covenant with the Father so that the rest of Mankind would be saved. Before that the Jews had priority due to strict bloodline, hence why Jesus bloodline had to be directly from ADAM. What the Jews were commanded to do was t clear the path of spoilt bloodlines, threats to the Godly Covenants, threats from the unseen future that God knew that certain tribes would pose a future destruction of God's saviour plan.

This might sound racist but the Palestinians / The Philistines were seen as a future threat in the Old Testament and King David was meant to wipe them out because the future with them would have caused the Jews a lot of trouble if not extinction. But because there is a promise made by God to the Jews to keep their homeland Israel God cannot back down. This is also true today as the Palestinians with the Arab league are against the Jews as foretold by prophecy like in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and the book of Revelations.

So what God was doing is paving a way for the Messiah and man that strayed away from God and became Satanic inspired were a future threat to the overall plan of God. The next threat is to wipe-out the Jews so Satan beaks the promise of God and shows him up as liar and a hypocrite and that is why people today are anti-God and the Devil is building his deception army up so that the world wipes out the Jews. World War 2 was an example, the Prophet Muhammad was the same, Nero of the Romans was the same and every great worldly empire have tried to wipe out the Jewish bloodline but failed so far.

A new generation is being made in the spirit of the Nazi's or fascists to again wipe out the Jews, can you name them can you see the world going against them again? Can you not see the pattern of history repeating it self. Either it’s a plan from God or a secret society has been winding wars up for mankind from the start. But why have 7billion people on earth for another human extinction? The only answer is that man is against evil forces from earth and of the Devil who loses more often but keeps trying planning new games. The next game is to get the world against the Jews, even though they have some blame, God will allow the enemies of the Jews to draw up against them so that they may face God by faith as they too keep straying away. God does punish the Jews if they don’t hold to his ways in the way of not protecting them if they spiritually abandon him. When that happens God does not defend them but when they are spiritually aware things like the 6 day happen out of complete odds of losing.

I apologize in advance if this has already been written, there's a lot of pages to read through.

God didn't want His people to be absorbed, so to speak into other races, and cultures for two reasons, I can think of off the top of my head. Look at King Solomon and his pagan wives, they lured him into idolotry. God needed a people in which to reveal Himself and redeem them. When talking about the verses in Numbers you referenced, I think that is in reference to the handiwork of the fallen angels that produced nephilim. That was the ultimate in 'mixture'. Satan has seed, and the human race has seed. Gen 3:15. His motivation was to spoil our seed so Messiah could not be born. Hope this answers your questions.

Originally posted by The Stand
After reading the bible and some other very interesting books.... A lot of verses seem to imply harm to anybody who does not think like this god wants. .... For example, what does this verse mean? Numbers 31:17-18 “now kill all the boys and all the women who have had sexual intercourse. Only the little girls may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”

[edit on 9-11-2008 by The Stand]

If I had a dollar for every person on the net who posted an "oh my goodness, look what I found, doesn't this mean..." or "I just realized.." or "Help me with undertanding this.." veiled attack against [insert religion here] then I'd be a very rich man..

Then if I had a penny for every person REPLYING to that trolling baiting fraudulent post (who entirely missed the devious intent of the poster) and went on to defend their [insert religion here] then Warren Buffet would be calling ME for loans.

People.. will you never learn? The OP BAITED you to reply, and like the suckers that you are.. you did.. in spades.

Props to the OP, although I am a bit sick of seeing this tactic.



For the record.. I am an atheist and I have no idea why I keep defending the right to religious nonsense.. but I do. I guess I have always despised sneak attacks.. and bias one way or another in an argument.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Wolf please dont get irritated with me ..you dont even have to listen if you dont want to ....I am just trying to explain things as I see it ..

Sure I could be wrong ...
But I want you to know that I did not just believe it either ..it TOOK ALOT to convince me too ...
And then the dreams and stuff and my life changing so drastic after I truly wanted to know the Lord ...this is all just my personal testimony that I just like to share with others ..I am sorry if it irritates you ...


And I see his power when he sends people to me who are broken and scared and life is bad for them and they are wanting to change their life and he gives me the word (which I have already read a zillion times and now its stored in my heart and my head and my mind) and then I see them ChANGE ..after hugs and prayers and me just sharing with them my whole mess of a life and how God through his son JEsus and his word changed me .....then they ask to know him and all I do is pray with them and they get to know him too ..THROUGH reading the word ......and then living it ....
So I know he is more powerful than man gives him credit for .And he sure as heck helped those men write that word .,..for sure the NT ...
I have seen alot Wolf ...and nothing could convince me after all I have been through that that word of God is not true ....because it lives and breaths (It is a living word ..the spirit behind it is ) and it changes people .......I have seen it ..and been there and done that and know it to be true for my own life even ......



[edit on 10-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Beautiful job at illustrating Who God is and Who we are in Him!!
Amen!!

To all those who question the mind of God.

You have to want to know God in your heart to even begin to understand.
Trying to understand who God is by intellectualizing will only leave you skeptical. While it is wonderful to seek logic and try and understand the mind of God we must realize we have only the mind of man and in doing so recognize our limits, a person cannot truly identify with Christ Jesus until He has touched their heart and changed their life.

Bottom line one will never understand the complexity of ALL God is until they move God from their head to their heart.







[edit on 11-11-2008 by paxnatus]

And I've seen people change their life for the better through simple meditation practices without need for the Bible and all it's dogma. The Bible and religion in general are not neccessary to have a personal relationship with GOD. The only part worth reading for anything other than a vague history lesson which for the mast part cannot be taken literally are the words spoken by Jesus.

I'm right, you're wrong, who really cares and what does it matter? Knowing GOD is everything all the little trivial details in the Bible that people like to argue about are meaningless.

reply to post by The time lord



I really find it difficult to understand what you are saying. Mind you most non christians have the same problem, ie you obviously inderstand what your saying but it has no meaning to anyone else.

Example, you say "jesus was a jew and was sacrificed ", obviously if he was sacrificed then someone had to sacrifice him.

Now we know (according to scripture) that the jews didn't offer him up for sacrifice, and neither did the romans. We know that the plotters within the sanhedrin didn't offer him up as a sacrifice either so who exactly sacrificed this jesus character if he ever existed ?

If Jesus had an option of whether to allow himself to be executed, for his cause and was (as was more likely) buried end of. Then we could consider him as sacrificing himself not unlike any other martyr.

If however jesus allowed himself to be executed knowing that in a couple of days time he would be resurrected, what sacrifice is that exactly.

If we look at the definition of sarifice, it is to give up something precious, jesus' followers the Jews gave up nothing neither did the romans he was taken away by one by the other.

This leaves us with jesus giving up something precious himself, if he dide to exsist no more then this would surely qualify.

However, Jesus is supposed to be a god omnipotant etc etc , how is even conceivable that something that cannot and did not die could be sacrifiecied.

I know I know, Xtians will rave on about "in the flesh and all that" and do mental and vocal gymnastics around it all night long, but it will only make sense to them. Because they simply absolutely could not be wrong even if evidence climbs in bed with them and commits a rear ended sin.

Would it not be far more likely that jesus was a prophet like john the baptizer of jesus (probably his mentor ) and claiming his davidic right (allbeight through his mother), 2 of many many messiahs.


Again, outside the bible there is no evidence of Jesus. In the gospels there is more evidence for a davidic messiah trying to take on the role and usher in the kingdom of Yahwe than a god in christs clothes.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Christians go by the New Testament. Christians desire people to be BORN FREE from previous forms of control. If you were never born free to begin with, you have to wait until finally a generation is born that is entirely born free, when the Christians win and all the other forms of solipsism are destroyed, only then will Christian solipsism be destroyed, and mankind will return to a state of original purity.

True Christians are prepared to die for the cause.

Get it?

You have to read the entire chapter for this to make sense, >SNIP