Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


hey matrix, I'm not insecure or superstitious. I just usually go for the most logical explanation.

Please tell us a little more about this optical interface.....

peace

Originally posted by Pericle The mind is everywhere, but because of that high concentration in the brain, you tend to think your mind is in your head, which is false.

Aye.
Holographic.

The sum of the whole contained within each piece.

-

reply to post by melatonin





Thanks for re-explaining your analysis of the situation, but this post shows how close minded you are in trying to disagree with me.

I only explained the situation and the two contrasting views.

I never made any debatable claims.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
reply to post by mmariebored

 

Greetings mmariebored[,

Try and tell me this again in about 16 or 17 Months time when a new Technology comes out, that uses an optical Interface to communicate with The True Mind.

I am one of the people involved with this product or technology right now!!!!

I'd love to see what your rhetoric-filled "imagination" produces.

Originally posted by Jezus
Thanks for re-explaining your analysis of the situation, but this post shows how close minded you are in trying to disagree with me.

Hmm, yeah...



...indeed.

I only explained the situation and the two contrasting views.

I never made any debatable claims.

But how could something the brain creates exist outside of the brain or while the brain is inactive?

That's a how question aimed at moi. I answered why I think something the brain creates (a mind) doesn't exist outside (and why people might think it does) and why we can't be sure it's not active - as this has come up repeatedly.

Perhaps we need rhetorical tags.

I understand you believe that the evidence doesn't suggest this but that is the point you are DENYING the evidence because you think the claim is too fantastic and requires more conclusive evidence.

Here you say I'm denying evidence. I'm actually interpreting it, viewing the anecdotal evidence as just that (i.e., potentially unreliable), and the better evidence as not really supporting the claims of many in this thread and the author (Van Lommel) - especially given the thread topic. I am questioning the interpretation that minds go floating about.

Sorry for bothering.

[edit on 9-11-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Here you say I'm denying evidence. I'm actually interpreting it, viewing the anecdotal evidence as just that (i.e., potentially unreliable), and the better evidence as not really supporting the claims of many in this thread and the author (Van Lommel) - especially given the thread topic. I am questioning the interpretation that minds go floating about.

I guess I worded this poorly.

I should have said you are denying "the" interpretation of the evidence.

"the" = the one this thread is about

From a third party perspective my interpretation is that an individuals view on "life after death" will effect the interpretation of the evidence.

That was my point.

Originally posted by Jezus
From a third party perspective my interpretation is that an individuals view on "life after death" will effect the interpretation of the evidence.

That was my point.

No problem, I think we both got mixed up in Lake Verbiosity.

Aye, probably. It certainly makes people more readily accept flaky evidence, make wild assumptions, and potentially ignore future disconfirming evidence.

I did state very early on that I have a 'high' standard of evidence. Generally involves well-controlled methodology and adequately interpreted data. In other words, good science.

This whole area is full of quackery. For example, Parnia (on whom this thread is based) apparently claimed he was undertaking a similar study in 2004. A year long study. Four years later, nothing. He wrote a book though. Thank nature for that!

Moreover, a very similar 5-year study in the UK was not published as the results were 'inconclusive'. That is, they didn't show what they wanted - apparently the disembodied minds failed to float to where the hidden stimuli were placed.

But lets keep going, Parnia will get there eventually and the whole of the scientific world will be rocked by his findings. If he bothers to publish them. Might get a Parnia bestseller, though.


[edit on 9-11-2008 by melatonin]

To me, near death experiences have always seemed like something of a given.

What happens when you turn off pretty much any electrical device? You get a little bit of bad output caused by insufficient power as the device is depleting the charge remaining in the system.

During the process of dying, which is to say between the time that your organ function becomes insufficient to sustain life and the time when electrical activity in your brain completely ceases, no part of your body is getting the blood flow or anything else that it needs.

So you are deprived of coherent sensory input, but possibly still getting signals from your sensory organs because they are under stress (like when you rub your eyes real hard and it causes you to see shapes and colors). Your brain function is impaired or incomplete, but you still have some juice in there that has to be discharged and you can't control it.

Depending on the circumstances of your death, there is no telling what your endocrine system might be doing that could further affect brain function.

And on top of all that, you probably have a preconcieved notion about death and will probably think about it if you have any idea you are about to die before it happens.

SO, you're thinking about the afterlife, you may be experiencing some form of natural high or other bio-chemically induced state, you are either under sensory deprivation or getting gibberish from your senses, and you brain is running kind of rough.

And that's just the experience itself. Odds are you're not forming memories very well while having a near death experience, because your brain is on the fritz. So how can you ever know for sure that your memory of a near death experience is what you experienced? Maybe after the fact you filled in some of the gaps subconsciously with your preconcieved notions about the afterlife.

thanks man!

You know my theory?

When you die you do not go to what we call heaven per-se, but rather into one of the Extra-Dimensions, that we have not yet discovered.

Science knows these Extra dimensions, exist. and some very important physics theorys rely on them, such as the Super-String theory.

There are up to 20 extra dimensions that exist at the moment all around you and I. When you see Ghosts, either you or the "Ghost" has manage to blend into the opposing dimension, often creating a large Magnetic Field/Static/ 'polterguist activity'

What do you think?

Star this to get it some more attention, and this post if you think i could be right.

Let's think about this logically.
So little is known about the human brain. There are endless possibilities.
I knew someone who took a drug, salvia divinorum (which is legal in some parts of the US), and he said that he was watching TV and then time slowed down and it was as if he were is slow motion. The effects of certain chemicals to the brain are incredible. For all we know, when you die, chemicals released to the brain could cause your perception of time to be completely different.

I've never had an NDE, but I have been in a car crash. I remember that time slowed way down as my whole life flashed before my eyes.
Is it so far fetched to imagine that when your brain is in the process of shutting down, a chemical is released to the brain, perhaps in an attempt to protect it, which could give an altered perception of time?
Perhaps an NDE is exactly that. A second passes by which seems like several minutes of a 'drugged up' experience.

I just pulled that out of my arse. I don't know what really happens, but my point is that even I can invent an explanation which is far more plausible than "your mind floats around when you die".

Doesn't this sound like people saying the world is flat and we're on a giant turtle?
Human intellect always produces absurd fantasies when the data is not complete.

reply to post by The Vagabond


Take a step back at what you have been taught DR.

Have a look at the Origins of life, Astro-physics, Meta-pysics. space, the earth, and slowly sink back into that defensive Rhetoric of yours.

Getting uncomfy yet? No? Then you are not looking hard enough.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Yes, time is Human Perception.

Look at this clock


Fast, yes?
Now shift your eyes further along the screen, away from the image. Notice how it slows down?

Originally posted by monkeybus
Have a look at the Origins of life, Astro-physics, Meta-pysics. space, the earth, and slowly sink back into that defensive Rhetoric of yours.

I suggest you take a look at psychology.
Perhaps a reason why people like to think there's an afterlife.
Possibly because our main function as living beings is to continue living, and once we know we can't, we trick ourselves into believing we can.

Why is it more plausible that there's an afterlife than it would be to attribute an NDE to any number scientific explanations?
The truth is rarely what most people would like it to be.

reply to post by monkeybus


What's your point?
It's an optical illusion.

Originally posted by mmariebored

Originally posted by InterestedObserver
...the reason we know there was no brain activity is because it was being monitored on an EEG or other system like it in order to determine clinical death. Checking for brain activity is one of the ways they make sure you are dead. These people registered 0 activity. Read more into NDE's and you'll find this is a recurring element. It's unexplainable.

The people have to wake up to tell about their "experiences".

People can have dreams in a sleep that lasts only minutes.
Like when you're just falling asleep and you wake up suddenly. Your dream is still fresh in your mind.

The dreams you have in the waking process, after a long sleep, are the ones most easily remembered.

It cannot be proven that the "experiences" people claim are out-of-body, near death, are not just a dream they had while they were waking up.
that still doesn't explain the blind being able to see for the first time and explaining what the saw during there experience with death.or people describing conversations or actions that took place in different places from were the people had there experience with death. and i hope in this day and age doctors can correctly determine if a person is dead or not!


[edit on 9-11-2008 by mmariebored]

reply to post by mmariebored


How can you possible make such an irrational statement as this?

Quote: "I'd love to see what your rhetoric-filled "imagination" produces."

You have absolutely no idea of what is going on in your world.

You don't even know what I am talking about but for your information there has been a huge amount of development going on regarding this technology.

What ever you may believe will not change this reality or have any affect what so ever regarding the introduction of this technology into your world.....

Why are you so negative?

Is it possibly something to do with insecurity or superstition, or just denial.

Originally posted by monkeybus
Take a step back at what you have been taught DR.

Sorry doc, nobody in here but us laymen. I'd have an associates degree, but I'm so bad at algebra that I can actually destroy a graphing calculator using only my mind. I've got a certificate or two from the school of hard knocks though.

Have a look at the Origins of life, Astro-physics, Meta-pysics. space, the earth, and slowly sink back into that defensive Rhetoric of yours.

I'm not going to solve the mysteries of life and the universe just because you think a list of heavy subject headings constitutes an argument. Here is my counter proposal: You go solve the mysteries of the universe, and use what you learn to make a substantive post on this topic. Then I'll get defensive and hurt your feelings.

Originally posted by monkeybus
thanks man!

You know my theory?

When you die you do not go to what we call heaven per-se, but rather into one of the Extra-Dimensions, that we have not yet discovered.

Science knows these Extra dimensions, exist. and some very important physics theorys rely on them, such as the Super-String theory.

There are up to 20 extra dimensions that exist at the moment all around you and I. When you see Ghosts, either you or the "Ghost" has manage to blend into the opposing dimension, often creating a large Magnetic Field/Static/ 'polterguist activity'

What do you think?

Star this to get it some more attention, and this post if you think i could be right.

very cool way of looking at it, when we die we leave the physical dimension and move on to a dimension that is only made up of energy. Einstein also believed in many different dimensions, and some have theorized that aliens come from different dimensions.

Originally posted by Memysabu
I dont believe it at all.
Chemicals left over cause the experience.

Brain activity does not cease at the second of death.

my wife is a doctor and during her ER rotation in residency she heard some amazing tales.

They had a doc once who wore a hairpiece to cover his bald spot. However during any surgical proceedure he would remove the hairpiece. At no time would anyone see him without it except the ER staff during the life-saving proceedures.

Anyway, they had a patient die on them for 1-2 minutes but managed to save him. Later during recovery the patient told the doc his bald spot wasnt that bad from above and he should consider plugs instead.

There was another story where an ER doc told me that they had a patient die on them. They announced the time of death and left the room. 2 rooms down the same Doc and nurse were working on a patient that was in a car accident. They were chatting about plans for the holidays and what kind of xmas tree to get. Meanwhile, the dead patient's heart restarted. The first thing the man said to the doctor was he should reconsider a real tree as theyre more of a fire hazzard than the fake ones.

There are many more incidents where there was no chance the patient overheard the doctor and yet was able to recall his conversation.

I know 2 ER docs personally and both swear that something happens beyond death and you survive. Theyve heard too many patients recount the same experience and things that wouldnt be possible

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Let's think about this logically.
So little is known about the human brain. There are endless possibilities.
I knew someone who took a drug, salvia divinorum (which is legal in some parts of the US), and he said that he was watching TV and then time slowed down and it was as if he were is slow motion. The effects of certain chemicals to the brain are incredible. For all we know, when you die, chemicals released to the brain could cause your perception of time to be completely different.

I've never had an NDE, but I have been in a car crash. I remember that time slowed way down as my whole life flashed before my eyes.
Is it so far fetched to imagine that when your brain is in the process of shutting down, a chemical is released to the brain, perhaps in an attempt to protect it, which could give an altered perception of time?
Perhaps an NDE is exactly that. A second passes by which seems like several minutes of a 'drugged up' experience.

I just pulled that out of my arse. I don't know what really happens, but my point is that even I can invent an explanation which is far more plausible than "your mind floats around when you die".

Doesn't this sound like people saying the world is flat and we're on a giant turtle?
Human intellect always produces absurd fantasies when the data is not complete.

I believe some people experience a NDE as you described. And its nothing more than the body releasing endorphines and all their neurons are firing off.

However there are reports that go beyond a mere explanation of a biological response to dying. There are too many ER docs who report patients hearing conversations and seeing things happen in other rooms after theyre clinically dead.

My buddy (an ER doc) told me its not even a big deal to hear a patient tell them they left their body for a brief time. He still laughs the first time his wife (a nurse) freaked out over an incident....

Theyre working on a patient that died briefly twice. While the doc was working on the patient, his wife the nurse was in the break room where on-call docs sleep and eat. She was warming up food in the microwave and got a can of Mr. Pibb soda out of the fridge.

Later the nurse is changing a dressing on the patient and asks if he'd like anything. He asked if he could have a Mr. Pibb. He noticed that there was one left in the fridge.

She still brings that up from time to time.