Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

Originally posted by pause4thought
So the outcomes of such trials make no difference to me whatsoever.

And if the results showed consciousness to survive biological death?

I do like the ability of those who complain about other's 'open minds' are those with the most closed. Once I see the appeals, I accept it's a one-way street to some.

Even though science, the most effective method of studying nature, would be showing that consciousness appears to not exist after death, the anecdotes would win the day, heh.

ABE: earlier...

Originally posted by pause4thoughtThe unwillingness of some people to open their minds to the possibility their preconceptions are wrong simply does not lend itself to getting to the bottom of a matter.

You wouldn't even accept evidence that shows you could be wrong, and as far as you are concerned, you have gotten to the bottom.

This is quite disingenuous - 'open your mind to my closed-minded Truth(TM)'


[edit on 9-11-2008 by melatonin]

The most obvious question i think that has come up is this.

What about all the people who don't have near death experiences? When i read some research a few years ago it was mentioned that only 4 in 10 people have the near death experience. So does this completely disprove the near death idea?

reply to post by melatonin


No Sir. The problem is 'science' often lacks the humility to admit there are some spheres in which it cannot operate effectively.

Some facts have to be established on the basis of available evidence as opposed to repeatable evidence, and as such cannot be subjected to the scientific method.

A prime example is the question of whether or not a suspect is guilty of a crime. The decision is based on consideration of evidence of events that took place in the past and which by their very nature are not repeatable.

If you wish to call first-hand and eye-witness testimony "anecdotes", as you do in the case of NDEs, then by analogy you can discount the entire system of justice as "beliefs based on anecdotal evidence".

There are however, literally billions of people throughout history who, on examination of the evidence, have concluded that Christ rose from the dead three days after his death, precisely as he had promised, and also in keeping with millennia of prophetic writings. We have also concluded that he can therefore keep his promise to grant his disciples an unending existence with our Maker.

Having become convinced this is so, and knowing Christ's resurrection is not a repeatable event, I do not pretend science could prove or disprove the veracity of the event.

However if you wish to insist you would only believe on the basis of repeatable facts, you might as well reject all of history.

reply to post by ElectroMagnetic Multivers



You don't have to take my word for it... think of it this way.

How old is the universe? According to science it's is about 15 billion years old. if you were born, lets say, 20 years ago, then before you were born you didn't exist for billions of years. Dead basically. Any memories of that long long long peroid of time? None.

greate post. interesting and positive!!!!

my grandmother had once a "visitor" as she called him. it happened the same evening her good friend has died. it just appeared in her house in the room she was sitting for minute ot two and vanished after without any move or word. she said that she was not scared at all at the time and after. she could not describe even the sex of the object but she was sure that it was some friendly "ghost".

I did not belived her at all but I can't say it is not possible. hopefully there is some energy which can carry the memory after our death.

star for you.

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by melatonin

 

There are however, literally billions of people throughout history who, on examination of the evidence, have concluded that Christ rose from the dead three days after his death, precisely as he had promised, and also in keeping with millennia of prophetic writings. We have also concluded that he can therefore keep his promise to grant his disciples an unending existence with our Maker.

Is this your evidence?
Billions of believers does not a fact make. Billions could be wrong.
(no I try not like Yoda be)
What evidence is there that Christ rose again? Did he even die the first time?
Words in a book mean nothing.
The evidence that science provides is the evidence we'll go with here.

Are there near death experiences?
Yes, there are.

Are there death experiences?
That we don't know, and we have no evidence for that.

In my opinion a near death experiencer is not dead, if they were totally brain dead they would not have come back at all to tell the tale.

So, to drag religion into this is like saying that water is liquid because we need it that way to quench our thirst.
You can't prove something true with something that itself needs evidence for.

I hope we live on, but NDE's do not the provide the evidence I am looking for, neither does the bible.

Originally posted by pause4thought
No Sir. The problem is 'science' often lacks the humility to admit there are some spheres in which it cannot operate effectively.

So, in a thread focused on a new scientific study on NDEs, we fall into a criticism of the very method that could confirm the hypothesis of consciousness surviving death.

Uh-huh.

If it confirms your pre-existing ideas, it's all about professionals not amateurs, otherwise it a hubristic group of closed-minded fools.

The confirmation bias in this one is strong, young padawan...

Some facts have to be established on the basis of available evidence as opposed to repeatable evidence, and as such cannot be subjected to the scientific method.

A prime example is the question of whether or not a suspect is guilty of a crime. The decision is based on consideration of evidence of events that took place in the past and which by their very nature are not repeatable.

This is an experimental scientific study and readily repeatable.

If you wish to call first-hand and eye-witness testimony "anecdotes", as you do in the case of NDEs, then by analogy you can discount the entire system of justice as "beliefs based on anecdotal evidence".

I call a spade a spade.

There are however, literally billions of people throughout history who, on examination of the evidence, have concluded that Christ rose from the dead three days after his death, precisely as he had promised, and also in keeping with millennia of prophetic writings. We have also concluded that he can therefore keep his promise to grant his disciples an unending existence with our Maker.

Having become convinced this is so, and knowing Christ's resurrection is not a repeatable event, I do not pretend science could prove or disprove the veracity of the event.

And we retreat to the last refuge of the theological rascal.

This is completely irrelevant. The thread is about a new study which will assess the notion that consciousness exists after biological death.

I couldn't care less about Jay-sus.

However if you wish to insist you would only believe on the basis of repeatable facts, you might as well reject all of history.

This is a scientific experiment.

I know it's hard to accept, but all you have shown is that you are closed-minded, after asking others to be open-minded.

Good show though. Now read over the thread with an open-mind and view it in its glory.

Originally posted by pause4thought
The unwillingness of some people to open their minds to the possibility their preconceptions are wrong simply does not lend itself to getting to the bottom of a matter.

...

There is a lot of evidence out there for those with an honest, open, enquiring mind.

Uh-huh.

I was the victim of a road rage shooting incident when I was 19. My best friend at the time was driving, and I was in the passenger side. At a stop light, two gang banger looking mexican guys appeared at my window, and shot their 9mm cal pistol through my window, striking me in the face at point blank range.

I had a Near Death Experience. It wasnt a lazer light show with god standing by playing stairway to heaven. I was floating in an inky blackness, unaware of who I was, or what was happening, although I was able to contemplate these things.. The feeling was incredible, and I have always felt as though I had experienced more than I remembered.

The logical part of me says that the experience was nothing more than my body releasing endorphins and adreniline in an attempt to manage the shock my system was under.

I am a believer in NDE's. Whether they are our bodies natural reaction to death, or it is some spiritual transition from this plane of exsistance to the next, I dont know. But something DOES happen, and it's worth alot more investigation.

Originally posted by Smugallo
Hold yer horses there dudes.

Have any of you actually looked at any of the other articles on the source link?

I quote "Britain's biggest banks use astrology to play the markets", "Mysterious ghostly orbs perplex researchers", "Mobile Phones are Killing Our Ghosts"

Hmmm. Credible source? I don't think so. This should no be posted in the Breaking News section.

Once your dead, that it. Nothing, void. You only get one chance get over it.


[edit on 9-11-2008 by Smugallo]

Actually, you're completely wrong. That the mind is seperate from the body has been proven using scientific methodology, from real world physicists(not theoretical). These scientists were paid to not only prove this, but to experience it themselves. Research Bob Monroe's experiences, and more importantly, the work of Thomas Campbell. He is one of the physicists that documented, unambiguously, the out of body experience and much more. You can read his book 'My Big TOE(theory of everything)'.

reply to post by Interestinggg


Well lets differentiate all the situations. Out-of-body experiences are different to Near-death experiences (light & tunnel).

Some of these phenomena are easy to explain, most of it comes down to the dyeing throws of the brain and various other organs. The light at the end of the tunnel is explained as the eyes shutting down, where the inner-most light sensitive cells remain receptive long after the outer-most giving the impression of light in a dark tunnel. Then the is the shutting down of particular brain parts specifically. In controlled conditions when have the ability to shut down parts of the brain in the lab. In fact NDEs are completely re-creatable in the lab, down to every aspect.

Out of body experiences are more complicated and unexplainable yet don't appear mystical in any way. Being able to see/hear things that should be unable to be seen or heard by patients in the OR can simply be unconscious deduction that is preserved in memory.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are only beginning to scratch the surface when it come tos understanding the mind and what it can do.

IF near death experiences are not real, then veridical NDE's would be impossible. Either that or the researchers are lying. I think any debunkers would have found out that last one already by now though.

Here's an example of one of the most well known veridical NDE's:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Whether factual or not, my uncle had a NDE in 1962 from a heart attack. It is a beautiful experience by his events. He was an athiest and alcoholic and the experience totally changed his views of life. He became a beautiful loving person all over night. He didn't follow any particular religious dogma, he just believed that love, compassion and giving is above all things He told me if you live your life with these principles, judgment has no place.

The most compelling stories of NDE experiences come from the children. Whether you believe or not, these stories are a testament of love.

reply to post by melatonin




You ducked and weaved re: this one, didn't you

If you wish to call first-hand and eye-witness testimony "anecdotes", as you do in the case of NDEs, then by analogy you can discount the entire system of justice as "beliefs based on anecdotal evidence".

Your response: " I call a spade a spade. "


The other guy gets top marks.

No offense to anyone, but the simplest explanation is brain damage. If the brain is completely shut down, the brain cells are not getting any oxygen and they are dying. The memories cannot be trusted.

There is a very good NDE site that I read from time to time.
www.near-death.com...

This NDE experiencers' account is one of my favorite. While she was out of body, she noticed a red shoe on the roof. Then

I was relating this to a [skeptical] resident who in a mocking manner left. Apparently, he got a janitor to get him onto the roof. When I saw him later than day, he had a red shoe and he became a believer, too.

www.near-death.com...

Here's some evidence that people who are born blind can see during a NDE.
www.near-death.com...

There are plenty of evidence that people do leave their bodies during NDE.

I know of not one person who says that all NDEs are fake, made-up, or BS. Perhaps some are, but I doubt they all are.

They are real experiences. The question is whether they are created by some sort of free-floating mind or purely a result of brain activity or lack thereof.

I did talk to a beast-like demon when conscious. I can retrieve the memory of it right now. However, the beast-like demon didn't exist outside of my mind. It was a crazy experience. The whole experience of that night changed me. But the beast was still a phantom of my mind under particular conditions.

reply to post by Distractions4Nothing


They can be preserved though, which is very important in all this. NDEs could all occur under a minute with some time dilation (like in dreams) and then preserved in memory. When the person wakes up at the end of it, in there memory it seems like they have been experiencing something the whole time when they are just recalling something from a while ago.

Originally posted by Dock6
Your response: " I call a spade a spade. "

The other guy gets top marks.

Yeah, anecdotes are anecdotes. Testimonials are the meat of all kinds of pseudoscientific tripe.

If we are talking about a court of law, then one person's opinion/testimonial/anecdotal evidence isn't going to weigh substantially against proper forensic evidence - you know, produced by that thing that lacks humility.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

But thanks for your input.

[edit on 9-11-2008 by melatonin]

WOW UBER CREEPY! I was just watching mythbusters not 45 seconds ago about some constricting jeans in a bath myth. Carrie was interviewing a guy who was explaining how when they're too tight they could constrict causing a clot that could lead to your lungs and cause death!

What are the odds?

Check this vid out.

www.youtube.com...

Probally the most convincing story to support life after death i ever heard.

[edit on 9-11-2008 by Explosions in The Sky]