**Important Message to ALL my fellow Conservatives** (please read)

reply to post by djpaec


I am far too familiar with misinterpretations within many modern bibles. This is why I have tried very hard to dig deep into the roots of my faith. By looking into what Jewish tradition through Torah states. I have been able to find many. There are also versions available that are direct translations from the known greek texts to modern english. Many of these have the hebrew terms in them, showing how the translations would fit. By cross refrencing these it avoids confusion or deception. I also have looked into what the jewish messianic movement says and how it stacks up. If I have set myself apart from what is often the perception of the modern church then I am satisfied. I am saddened that a faith that should be known for compassion towards others and a genuine love for God is seen by the world as greedy and hatefull. These are completely the opposite of what Yeshua(or Jesus if you prefer) said we should be.

reply to post by BlasteR


I think northeast liberal atheists are just as ignorant as fundamentalist southern christians. I have lived around both of them and here maybe what you can expect.

If you are against big government and welfare, etc. You then are a cruel selfish bastard. But if you don't believe in a god and live around the christians you are a heathen. Hey, guess what? They both shove their morality and religion down all of our throats, just a coincidence? I don't think so, they are two sides of the same coin in a love hate relationship with themselves. They generally are confused and trapped between religion and politics and how best to shove their neo-temperance ideology down everyone's throats by creating envirnments full of fear of outside influences and threats to their identities. Liberals hate sex, drugs and rock n roll as much as the bible thumpers they love to hate, on that they do agree and in that sense they are like nasty Jerry Springer like lovers constantly wanting to fight over who gets to legislate morality lock up non-violent people that don't use the proper drugs to get high, or practice sex in ways that offend their delicate selfish priggish morality melodramas that not coincidentally get played out in TV series devoted to crime stopping and the dangers of the evil ones that are really the same but they choose to think they are different. You have the hippie liberals with their naive pre Charlie Manson absurdity and then you have the conservatives with their Jerry Falwell religious fantasy, one thing liberals and fundamentalists share, they both follow a fantasy world of crime and sin, and in the process make this country just a little bit dumber everyday. Maybe their could be a God but you liberals and conservatives have gotten away with so much crime in the form of punishing the weak and disabled and the dissident that fails to fit your comfy molds. I think both these groups are why America has become a nation of do-gooders going around the world shoving McDonalds burgers down other cultures throats and then at the same time working to create an unelected body above all nations.

Free speech, use of any substance by choice or use of body has been curtailed by people that hate everyone not just themselves and will stop at nothing to destroy the beauty in life so long as they don't have to argue the merits of their fraud of using force to impose their wills on us. Screw the left and the right for shoving your morality down our throats and it all started back in the freaking 60's with the Nixon war on Marijuana. That sealed the next 50 years of America's fate, it wasted young people's lives by literally throwing them away in prisons for petty crimes that were non-violent and increased the likelyhood of the ability to implement a neo-eugenics through abortion and population control unseen since the 1940's. Wake up we are being dictated to by raving lunatics hell bent on controlling the world one back room deal at a time.

reply to post by loam


I also opposed Bush from the beginning and considered a wild-eyed nut. and yes, I , too feel vindication now. The Bush Brigade did so much damage that I will never again , never,ever vote Republican again. I've considered myself Republican most of my life. It wasn't until The first Bush campaign and exposure to the internet that I began to really question things. And the last 8 years combined with Obama's speech at the DNC is why I registered Democrat.
Just mytwo cents.

Great thread and lots of good thought on both sides.
I would like to point out one thing that WE are missing. The PEOPLE want what is decent, fair and good for our country. The PEOPLE are relying on the system to make this change. Unfortunately the fringes and the extremes are what we focus on when we vote because thats the way the system wants it.
Almost every good citizen of any country wants the same thing. Life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. (Pursuit meaning a reasonable shot at it, not a legislated definition.) This country could accomplish all of that quite easily and 90-95% of the people would be happy. Unfortunately the system has hijacked our country and given us all a 'Sophies Choice" political system where we have to split the nation in half over issues that mean so little in the grand scheme of things. We despize the other side and agonize over the extreme issues so the system can divide our attention and our country. While we all square off and fight it, out the system steals our money and sells us down the river.
The two parties we have are not America. They are the head and tail of the coin that is taken from our pockets and spent on everything but us.
We need a third party that is by the people and for the people.
I think that the majority of the people who really have the best interests of our citizens at heart could happily put aside their differences to unite for real progress that is based on community and simple common sense.
Just a thought and possibly a bit simplistic but I don't see any real good answer with the system we've got.

"IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REALLY THE PARTY OF WAR AND CORPORATISM?"

No. The republican party doesn't start wars and pay corporate CEO's to take vacations on bailout money. Democrats start wars by telling the world that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, then they drop a few rockets on Asprin factories, which results in an angry middle east that republicans will later have to clean up.

Democrats establish, develop, expand or donate to charities (President Bush warned us about charities being used to fund terrorism) like the Clinton foundation, or the Woods foundation or the Tides foundation, or CAIR. Democrats offer lame-brained ideas like the Oil-For-Food program that was found to be used by Saddam to pay Palestinian terrorist. Republicans like Bush, shut down programs like the Oil-For-Food of the Clinton era.

Republicans don't pass legislation like Jimmy Carters "Community Reinvestment Act" which is later reinforced by the Clinton administration and used by other democrats like Barack Hussein and his Syrian friend Rezko, aligned with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, to hoodwink the poor and minorities into purchasing homes through various means, one of which incorporated the use of the court system to force compliance with the legislation, that by all means and intents seemed to be aimed at ripping these people off later down the road.

Clinton once indicated that he would shake hands with HAMAS. Barack Hussein was endorsed by HAMAS. Reverend Wrights church was reported to have printed the HAMAS manifesto. HAMAS is known in some parts of the world as a charity, in other parts of the world it is known as a terrorist organization. Both of which a republican president has warned us about.

Republicans don't make the messes. Republicans spend most of their time cleaning up the messes the Democrats made.

Do not be silly, You had Ron Paul to vote for.

Period

[edit on 6-11-2008 by FIFIGI]

Ask yourself this question: What do I think is a conservative? IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REALLY THE PARTY OF WAR AND CORPORATISM? We need to re-think what are conservative values or at least what they should be. Should our values continue to be dictated by a small yet influential group of people originally from the Democratic party that have slithered their way into our Party calling themselves "Neoconservatives", should we continue to be the PARTY of welfare and warfare, or should you and I try to enforce REAL conservative values, that of small government both here and abroad?

reply to post by Gateway


Thanks for your thread Gate!

I agree that this is the time to research the true conservatism, those values that everyone who has personally taken the burden of responsiblity can relate to.

But until we find that eutopia, our resposibility is to point out as often as we can how the irresponsible LEFT is going wrong. More like how we guide our kids as they go through their various stages of life. No! you can't expect us to pay your bills forever! Yes, you have to find a job and be responsible! Stop blaming others for your problems, you messed up now admit it! Personal integrity is always the most important thing!

We have to keep hammering away. They forget so fast!

I agree with much of what you said, except for the part about the War. This IS a just war, and a just campaign which we are currently waging against Dictators, Terrorists, and any various number of Enemy elements. Time and time again, Isolationism has proven to be the greatest failing of any Foreign Policy Strategy ever put forth in this Modern Era. President Clinton believed that he could practice such a Policy, and in doing so we awoke one morning to 3,000 Dead Americans, and thus the Greatest Loss of Life on American soil from an outside Enemy Attack, since Pearl Harbor. We need to reach out and strike first, and this is why Pre-Emptive OPS have become a basic Law of Modern State Security.


As for President Bush, he has been a good Leader, and a truly Social Conservative. He may have gone astray of one of the basic tenants of Republicanism, which involves Fiscal Conservatism as well, but he has been a strong and unwavering leader. At times, being a good leader does not necessarily coincide with being a Popular one. I believe our greatest example of such is what we bear witness to at this very moment.

I do agree with you though, the time for Appreciating the values of our Founding Fathers will arise once again. We witnessed it after President Carter, with the rise of President Reagan, and we will witness it again.

Originally posted by dawnstar

..., he's probably gonna have to give that pendulum a nice push to the right...cause if he pushes to the left, well.....he's just gonna add momentum to the thing and we will be very much socialist, or communist, or something...but things will never be the way they were before the REPUBLICANS took office.
but don't blame obama, or the future dems if things don't work out..... bush is handing over to them a poisoned chalice to begin with.

The newest POTUS to be, and his cabinet are barely 24 hours old, and we are already hearing from his apologists and rationalists. Talk about an acceptance of failure!

Its just like a stockbrokers said on Bloomberg news regarding the markets:

"You need total capitulation to occur for rebuilding to start".

To any GOP members who are reading this, retake your party from the neo-cons and bigots who have somehow wormed their way into the party.

Shun the anti-intellectualism that has surrounded the GOP candidates.

Shun the heavy mark of the religious right.

Return to the constitution, return and rebuild from the base up. Fix the party base and fix the country.

reply to post by sigung86


at least I am trying to point out some things that might avoid failure, not sitting on the sidelines plotting how to best take advantage of said failure before it's even begun...as if anyone is gonna want to take the job over in four years if there is failure!
obama, during most of his presidency, will have to push to the right...be very conservative, and make some very difficult decisions that no one likes!
that is the bare facts. the poor shouldn't be exemt from these difficulties, but neither should the better offs...by exempting from both groups, which is what usually happens, you are putting the stress on the dwindling middle class, and if you do this, well, all you are gonna end up with is more poor!
the burden must be shared with some equality present, otherwise, well....you pay the tab, I am exempting myself thank you!

if you have lived in a state with a Democratic party machine like the state of Calif you will see that nothing will change with Obama.

the democrats will self destruct just like the GOP has.

first they say they will bring good paying jobs back to the US but in calif the jobs the democrats bring are for there union friends not the regular people.

most of the African american community think with Obama there time has come. oh the surprise there in for. but the next election they will still vote for him.

now the gun owners are going to see Assault weapons ban plus a Calif type handgun ban. yes Calif has a handgun ban. you can only buy state approved hand guns
www.thegunsource.com...

they not only ban handguns by how good there safeties work but how good the finish is on the gun they don't want any badly lacquered grips or minor roughness in the machining of the metal of the gun.

then the global warming problem watch what Obama does there and who get the jobs that creates.
i will bet they don't go to the people that lose there jobs to new global warming laws.

I am betting that in 4 years a large number of people will be just as mad at the democrats as they are at the GOP now.

The democrat lead congress right now has a lower rating then G W Bush.

And i expect a glut of new laws that would have been vetoed by Bush
and many will make things worse not better.

The 2012 election should be interesting to say the lest. see how many that voted for Obama will still vote for him in 2012

Even the congressional elections in 2010 may prove interesting now that the democrats will have to shoulder the blame for this that go wrong in the next two years.
They won't be able to blame BUSH no more.

reply to post by dawnstar

Hey..Conservatiists...You have forgot that Mr Joe Biden is precisely behind Obama, and he has declare himself another man in favour of the NEW WORLD ORDER the same crap sold by Bush and Friends...so this Nightmare of America or USA has not finished yet....the same people who be pretended to be out of Government is still Inside of the Next Government...!

I think USA got No future at All.

Plinius the Younger

reply to post by Gateway


As much as you tried to lay out who is to blame, you ended up running the same old tired line. "It's the liberals fault that we are in this mess." "Neoconservatives are really liberals in disguise." Riiiiiiiight.

You deny that Obama is going to make a difference by saying that he really is a neoconservative in disguise. And so you and others voice your fears and openly pray for his demise. Riiiiiiiiight.

My point is that your post represents the same old, tired conservative political rhetoric: "The liberals are what's wrong with the world, but we, at least the 'real' conservatives, are the answer." The tale you tell is the same story given a new cover.

The way that neoconservatives flourished in the GOP is by taking advantage of ignorance within the GOP and conservative base. A small group of highly educated, smart, clever, and organized individuals realized that the conservative party presented an opportunity for their hegemonic ideals. All they had to do was present themselves as being conservatives, stoke fears and false patriotism, and take advantage of the built-in "them against us" ethos that existed in the conservative base.

The neoconservatives were smart enough to know that a major percentage of the conservative base were xenophobic, prejudiced, racist, and held fundamentalist religious views. In other words, many people in the conservative base saw themselves as being threatened, as victims, or both. A culture of people who feared unseen forces, racial, religious, cultural, and ideological differences were taken advantage of by the neoconservatives. Again, the "them against us" philosophy was used against the conservative base.

So the neoconservatives borrowed a page from the Reagan administration's playbook and invented the "War On Terror". Then they demonized Arabs and Muslims. Then they demonized the real and true American patriots who questioned and challenged their authority and motives. Then they demonized higher education and those who benefited from it; which the neocons had to do because the budgets for their foreign policies decimated the US public school system. And so anti-intellectualism flourished. All of this combined led to liberals being demonized. Which was easy to do because liberals value public education and higher education.

Liberals believe that all Americans should benefit from education, and that government should play a central role in ensuring that it happens. Liberals believe that all Americans should receive proper health care when needed, and that government should play a central role in ensuring that it happens. These are good values. It clearly represents government by the people for the people. An educated and healthy people are a more productive and prosperous people. And these worthy goals were demonized by the neocons as being Marxist and Stalinist. Yet more them against us ethos.

Then Barack Hussein Obama came along, and we know what happened next. He too was demonized. He was demonized because he embodied every type of fear that the neoconservative-exploited conservative base held. (I won't bother with a list because we all know what I'm talking about.) And his views on foreign diplomacy are especially threatening to those whose mentality has been crippled by the neoconservatives. Why would Osama Bin Hussein Obama Barack Laden-Ayres want to sit down and talk to all those "evil" people? More symptoms of them against us.

A person's mind, health, and liberty represents a person's real and true wealth. Yet Obama's "Spread the Wealth" slogan, and his foreign policy that seeks to ensure the prosperity and liberty of Americans and our global neighbors has been demonized.

Them against us. That's the subscription. Your position that you know better than those who supported and voted for Obama represents the typical small-mindedness that the neoconservatives fed upon. And so all any politician who wants to gain your support has to do is appeal to your sense of self-righteousness. You are wide open for exploitation.

Perceiving yourself and your party as a victim is not the way to clear your conscience or to understand what has happened to your cherished ideology. If you want to help change things then promote what you believe in, and live it. But don't play the victim, because then you will become the victim -- all over again.

Ive been watching the political scene for over 30 years and Ive seen the party shift toward (or include) the so-called "moral majority" into its base, mainly because the "bible belt" represents such a large voting bloc. Also, thanks to Reagan, many Southern Democrats switched parties and became Republicans. Frankly, the Republicans NEEDED those large voting groups.

That said, however, Republican policies have ALWAYS favored corporations and the little guy on the street (and yes, even small businesses-though they'd never believe it) has ALWAYS been better served by the Democratic party.

Even though the OP states that the party faithful have been urged to accept benefit increases, the truth is, under Republican leadership, particularly since the 80's, benefits have actually SHRUNK. Reagan, in his first days in office slashed veterans benefits, student financial aid, social security, welfare, and many other social programs that would have benefited you and me (or our children). Instead, the monies were funneled into military defense, Star Wars, corporate welfare, and other similar programs. Each successive Republican President since has only followed down that same path. The ONLY time in the last CENTURY that we had a balanced budget and were in the black was under a DEMOCRAT. That is a FACT you can never change no matter WHAT you say. it is a FACT.

Conservatives may think that Obama only has 4 years, but I disagree. I think he will win a 2nd term, particularly if he is able to undo some of the damage Bush and Co. have wrought upon this Nation. In fact, I think he could make the case that it would TAKE at least 8 years to begin to fix the mess Monkeyboy got us into.

Frankly, the Republicans HAD their chance. They controlled all three branches of Government up until the 2nd half of Bush's presidency, and look what they did with their opportunity....Personally, I wouldnt want to be in Obama's shoes, because its going to be near impossible to work our way back to solvency. But I give him high marks for wanting to, and perhaps now with a Democratic Senate and House majority, we can begin to turn things around. All I know is, for the first time in 8 years, I have HOPE again.

reply to post by dawnstar


The damage you see done is the result of Socialism, albeit, a different kind of Socialism.

When Socialism is combined with Corporatism, War, and a general religious ferver, it's called Fascism. This different kind of Socialism, which as the OP so rightly told everyone, is NOT Conservative by any means

I agree with the OP 100%, The Republican party is the Democratic party of a few decades ago ... what are we supposed to do with two socialist regimes?..

A New Conservative Party needs to be formed, designed specifically to destroy the existing Republican Party. Seeing as they no longer represent the Republic, and how sad it is that so many straight ticket imbeciles are voting for them are voting for them because they feel option A or B is their only choice..

When ever in history an old party goes defunct, a new one took it's place. Republicans are the old guard, and we need a new plan.

I think it's time our younger generations took control of this country!

reply to post by Gateway


Although I want to agree with you I must simply make this point. You are doing exactly what you are claiming the 'neocons' are doing. You are blaming the democrats! That is completely ridiculous! You are saying that they sent spies in to corrupt the GOP. Well, if that is true then it is also true that the GOP has done the same to the other side. That's politics. But for you to simply state that it was the democrats after all is pretty lame.

I agree, the conservative movement needs to be revamped. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. I left the conservative 'party' because I realized it no longer was such. Yes, it became a war mongering corporate loving corrupt party. That is why I left. Does that make me a democrat? I don't think so. It makes me a human being with morales that were being challenged by the action of our so-called leaders.

Bring back the true conservative party and I'm right there. But don't put the blame on the democrats.

Because in essence, it's not democrats or republicans the pulled this coup off. FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Reply to post by Dooper


Reply to various anti-religious comments



Freedom of Religion should mean that if your religion is okay with Polygamy, that it isn't illegal.

Does that mean if your religion is OK with Stoning young girls to death for being raped, that it isn't illegal?

Religion should never outrule the law of the land.

Originally posted by Gateway
Yesterday's "overwhelming" defeat of not just Mcain but the entire "current" GOP platform is a very telling one. This defeat is not so-much of an embrace of Obama and what he has to offer, but rather a defeat of the platform WE as conservatives have been told that REPRESENTS our Conservative values. Yesterday, republicans lost because WE (or at least a few of you) have been blindly told to support an unpopular and unjust war, (or else you are against the troops) we bail-out Wall Street, and continue to provide corporatist subsidies. Let's face it, people really think that Obama will bring peace and stop the abuse of our taxes going to those that do not deserve it, despite the fact that Obama will continue the status quo if not make things worse. Yes, Americans are that foolishly naive, but what choice did they have? Did we really expect the American public to vote a "Bush on steroids". (Mcain)


Please bare with me,

For many years beginning particularly since the Nixon regime the GOP has been slowly led to accept a different kind of Conservatism. One that has slowly adopted some of the views of the opposing party, the Democrats. Conservatives have been taught to accept that WE are a government of the righteous PEOPLE that we have a GOD GIVEN DUTY TO go around the world and mold it in our image. That if the world was not democratic, then it is WE who must make it so. We have been told by a certain segment within the GOP, that we must go around the world and defeat monsters. This is contrary to AN OLDER GOP platform and is contrary to what our forefathers have wanted for us as a nation to do. Slowly this type of Big-Government has crept into advancing and creating a larger Warfare state in which we now see collusion between Government and Large corporations at the D.C. trough feeding on taxpayer dollars.

Coupled with this Warfare government growth we have also been told that WE must increase government expenses here at home. To increase social outlays; to spread the wealth, to not cut medicare, to not cut social security, to increase unemployment benefits, to increase spending at the department of education and so on and so forth. We have seen the culmination of what maintaining a Welfare and Warfare state does to our economy and our currency. Even if we wanted to, could we realistically afford all of these programs? The frustration of the American people finally erupted last night at US those of us who consider themselves conservatives.

Who was responsible for turning a once Conservative movement of small government, free-markets, into one of Big-Government? We should look no further and understand that we have been sold a "bill of goods" by a group within the GOP calling themselves Neoconservatives. They have sold-us-out... to foreign interests, corporatism, and statism.

People like Norman Podhoretz, William & Irving Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Lewis Libby, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Robert Kagan, Donald Rumsfeld, Michael Ledeen, Cheney, Karl Rove, Frank Gaffney Jr., and Bush, just to name a few have corrupted this once great Republic into an unsustainable leviathan STATE were the ROLE of the president has been turned into a dictatorship, and where what we consider IMMORAL for us to do IN OUR PRIVATE lives is CONSIDERED as moral for the STATE to do.

What we must do now, is pick-up the pieces, and understand what is A CONSERVATIVE?

Ask yourself this question: What do I think is a conservative? IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REALLY THE PARTY OF WAR AND CORPORATISM? We need to re-think what are conservative values or at least what they should be. Should our values continue to be dictated by a small yet influential group of people originally from the Democratic party that have slithered their way into our Party calling themselves "Neoconservatives", should we continue to be the PARTY of welfare and warfare, or should you and I try to enforce REAL conservative values, that of small government both here and abroad?

It's time for the "Neoconservative" movement to be put back in its bottle and go back to the Democratic Party where it belongs.


---------
A side note: The Neoconservatives are currently running around blaming everyone else except themselves and their failed policies, for what they have done to the GOP. We must not except these excuses and marginalize them from our party if we want to bring back prosperity to this country.

America...when the four years are UP and you are impoverished by SOCIALISM, WE REAL CONSERVATIVES will be there to lead this country and our people back in the right direction. We shall wait patiently...

[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]

Anyone who believes this non-sense....PLEASE step right up I have brand spankin new condos on the moon with a earth view for sell REAL cheap. PLEASE..... The conservative and liberals have put this country right where we are today. They are the only two parties that have been in power. All this crap your peddling is the same crap that help put this country in the economic state it's in..... Reaganomics, Clintonomics Bushanomics, All you people do is point fingers...you have no answers...you have no solutions to any problems except point a finger to the other party...... Rightwing this...leftwing that....they did this...they did that.... You got no answers....NONE just finger pointing. Your so blind by a political system who bends you over and gives you the jollys with a jollynator so big you can drive a dump truck through...But you just keep right on taking it thinking you will get a different result in 4 years.... Check the definition of insain..and there will be all the folks who keep voting Democrat and Republican. I voted a 3rd party at lest I know I really wanted a differnt jolly!

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by sigung86

 

at least I am trying to point out some things that might avoid failure, not sitting on the sidelines plotting how to best take advantage of said failure before it's even begun...as if anyone is gonna want to take the job over in four years if there is failure!
obama, during most of his presidency, will have to push to the right...be very conservative, and make some very difficult decisions that no one likes!
that is the bare facts. the poor shouldn't be exemt from these difficulties, but neither should the better offs...by exempting from both groups, which is what usually happens, you are putting the stress on the dwindling middle class, and if you do this, well, all you are gonna end up with is more poor!
the burden must be shared with some equality present, otherwise, well....you pay the tab, I am exempting myself thank you!

As I said... Apologists and Rationalists.

You will find, I believe, that if we aren't already down the tubes, that in 6 months to a year, a greater number of folks will be walking around saying, "Why the Hell did we ever elect that bum"...

Obama has twice taken an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and to "bear true faith and allegiance to the same." He has never honored that oath, and, based on his policy proposals and objectives, he has no intention to honor it after again reciting that oath on 20 January 2009. Obama seeks to, in his own words, "break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution."

Takimng my money or your money to give to someone else... Swinging to the far right? ZHe's going where Bush already has been?

Please. Quit trying to justify yourself. You are on stage now, and rather than sit at a keyboard and argue with me... Get out and do something to make it work!

Sorry... I'm not a conservative, but I do not trust him, do not believe in him, and question what he knows about much of anything. He did, however, promise two of my three chickens in everyone else's pot. So go get 'em Dawnstar... We'll talk in 6 -8 months. I gotta go earn some more chickens to put in your pot.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by sigung86]