US pilot ordered to shoot down UFO over Norwich

Originally posted by drock905
reply to post by silver6ix

 

ok the sidewider was in deployment in 57. I Had read on an aviation website it was still under testing until 58.



As for the cloud cover. What was the weather on that day?

Is it common practice to engage and fire upon a radar contact in friendly skies without any viusal identification? Just curious.

If the contact was of significant size and already over mainland UK cities then yes, attempts would be made to contact the craft and if it did not respond them fighters would be ordered to shoot it down. If you were entering UK airspace you would be warned off, but given its location anything just appearing that far over UK territory would be presumed hostile until identified.

The problem in UK is that its very cloudy doesnt really matter the time of year theres more chance you will have thick cloud cover than not have it at any time of year at night. Its a very grey country

Obviously now in the modern era thats different due to the sheer volume of commercial flights but in those days UK airspace was heavily protected.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by silver6ix
As for Russian fighters flying over the UK at that time....show me a single incident involving a Russian fighter in UK airspace...

There are many incidents throughout the near fifty years of the Cold War where Soviet aircraft would often probe British airspace to test NATO defenses.

Here is an incident from 1958, where a Tu-95 was able to slip past early-warning radar (due to sabotage). Other incidents where they would probe British airspace are not hard to find.

But regardless of whether a Soviet bomber was able to penetrate that far into British airspace, what matters is what those on the ground believed at the time. Once again, this was the height of the Cold War, and any unidentified craft in British airspace would be a cause for alarm.

Your incident doesnt include location. British airspace could mean many thing, dont forget it was once the largest Empire in the world.

Show me one over m,ainland UK as I have never heard of a single incident before 1990 that a soviet fighter or plane of any kind crossed the water over mainland UK. Mainland UK has very little infiltration due to the fact its an Island.

Originally posted by silver6ix
Again im laughing. Please show me reports of soviet aircraft over the UK before 1990.

I have shown that despite your ignorant denials, Soviet Tu-95s did probe British defenses, and in at least one instance, penetrated beyond early-warning radar. Here is an article about an incident that occured earlier this year. Read carefully:

The RAF carried out its biggest operation to protect British airspace since the Cold War when four Tornados were scrambled to intercept eight Russian bombers approaching over the Atlantic.

This was the biggest deployment of Russian bombers to probe British air defences since the Cold War. SOURCE[/url]

This article explicitly states such incidents happened during the Cold War.

Originally posted by silver6ix
You might want to check the range of Soviet fighters in 1958, probably MIG19 fighters, and you might just discover they didnt have anywhere near the range to reach UK never mind return. Hence the fact there were no Russian planes over UK hence the fact the cold war was of very little interest to UK

Untrue. Tu-95s were more than able to reach great Britain and return...

During the height of the Cold War, the long range of the Tu-95 was demonstrated weekly as a pair of Tu-95s would fly from the Kola peninsula to Cuba along the east coast of the United States, escorted continuously along the way.SOURCE

Kola to Cuba is much further than Russia (or another Warsaw Pact nation) to Britain. The Tu-95 has a range of 9,400 miles.



[edit on 20-10-2008 by SaviorComplex]

Further, from the article I cited, so you won't be able to jump through any hoops trying to ignorantly deny such incidents ever happened...

The Tornados intercepted the Russian aircraft over the Atlantic, using procedures developed during the Cold War.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by SaviorComplex]

I am going to say that this story and others now coming from the UK had made me a true believer. I am in total shock over this today. I am really amazed. For all those I doubted and laughed at....The joke was on me! I am sorry.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Further, from the article I cited, so you won't be able to jump through any hoops trying to ignorantly deny such incidents never happened...

The Tornados intercepted the Russian aircraft over the Atlantic, using procedures developed during the Cold War.

What you have told me is nothing, over the Atlantic isnt over the UK.

Again show me a SINGLE soviet incident over mainland UK. There are none, but keep looking if you like.

Second of all I said fighters. If you are telling me a BOMBER slow moving could possibly have infiltrated one of the best radar systems in the world at that time, not just the outer ring early warning array but the inland arrasy also, and then outrun f86 Sabres im just going to laugh.


What are you suggesting that a russian bomber entered UK unseen over the mainland and then outran two F-86 Sabres and escaped unnoticed.

Sorry thats rediculous even for you.

MAYBE at an extreme end of possibility a fighter type aircraft could have slipped in, HIGHLY unlikely as it has never happened in the history of the country, and then out run the Sabres. but a Bear Bomber? Please, get serious.

Fighters by the way didnt have the range. I believe the MIG19 had a range of around 1500k, not enough for a UK round trip by any means.

Also simple logic would tell you that Russia wouldnt send a single bomber without fighter support over mainland UK amid the best defensive radar system in the world, just to fly over a city and leave.

UK specialised in RADAR and early warning, nothing got over UK mainland airspace without being seen.

You criticise those people who choose to believe in alien craft (I have never said it was alien) and then you come up with something as far fetched and fantastic as this as logical explanation?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by silver6ix]

[edit on 20-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Originally posted by silver6ix
You criticise those people who choose to believe in alien craft (I have never said it was alien) and then you come up with something as far fetched and fantastic as this as logical explanation?

Tou are twisting what I said. I never said this incident was due to a Soviet aircraft invading British airspace. I was responding to what you said.

This is what you said:

Originally posted by silver6ix
This is a little egg on the face for those claiming no evidence of UFOs and also claiming governments and military havent covered them up.

The RAF were convinced enough to give a firing command over mainland UK which is a significant statement. Again we have heard over and over "there no threat" and yet clearly theres threat enough to order Sabres to unload 24 rockets into them.

By this, you are implying they knew it was an alien craft and took action against it. My assertion was not that this was or was not a Soviet bomber, but in context of the Cold War and capabilities of Soviet aircraft at the time, that those giving the order-to-fire were probably not concerned with it being an alien craft. Rather, given the tensions of the day and known Soviet tactics, they were worried it may belong to the Soviets.

I backed up this assertion by showing that it was a concern during the Cold War. It is not a far-fetched to say that NATO countries were concerned about Soviet intrusions into their airspace, and would have reacted in much the same way to an unidentified craft as the story depicts.

Not in the least far-fetched. Only the most blind or willfully ignorant would believe so.

Released Report is DEFE 24/1931/1 (Right click save target) pg.259

Re the witness "story"; Thankyou "IAttackPeople" pg.2, his linkstates of the pilot USAF Milton Torres:

"Milton has a Doctorate of Mechanical Engineering and lectured at The University of Florida for many years. He is now retired, is 76 years of age and resides with his wife in Miami, Florida"

He seems like a very credible witness, other info on that page and the MOD release suggest the pilot says what happened, happened.

I very much doubt that this was an allied ECM system, the report states:

"all the normal procedures of checking with all the controlling agencies revealed that this was an Unidentified Flying Object"

This was a serious situation whether Russian bomber or Alien craft, perhaps turning a Cold War rather Hot, I doubt anyone would be fooling around with this "Palladium" system at the time.

Tu-95 bombers had massive range and were a Soviet mainstay.

Location : I read the report again;

" Our vector took us out over the North sea just east of east Anglia"

If this took place over land it won't be Soviet (Alien !) but it seems to of been off the coast, at least for Milton Torres's Sabre. Perhaps beyond the 12nm Territorial limit. Enjoyable Thread!

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

By this, you are implying they knew it was an alien craft and took action against it. My assertion was not that this was or was not a Soviet bomber, but in context of the Cold War and capabilities of Soviet aircraft at the time, that those giving the order-to-fire were probably not concerned with it being an alien craft. Rather, given the tensions of the day and known Soviet tactics, they were worried it may belong to the Soviets.

I think ill remind you of what U.F.O stands for. I said it was a U.F.O, UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object.

I have claimed ANY UFO is an alien craft at any time in this thread or any other because there is no evidence to corroborate it so it would be pointless.

The point on firing is that in order for the craft to be given firing orders it must have been a REAL threat. Meaning that the UK airforce did not give a firing order based on a glitch in the radar.

The R3 systems were highly adavanced radar tracking systems designed to track missles at high velocity entering UK airspace. The R3 nwetwork was extensive and heavily funded, as I said airspace over UK has always been highly defended hence the very few incidents even to this day of enemy craft entering UK airspace. I dont recall a single incident in history of an enemy plane entering mainland UK space unidentified as far as im aware it has never happened.

So for me this was clearly a UFO, something outside the everyday and considered a serious threat. WHAT is was I have never stated not will I as I do not know. I do know it shows UFO phenomenon have been considered a threat by military bodies and that they did classify infromation on the subject of UFOs.

Originally posted by stringue

"all the normal procedures of checking with all the controlling agencies revealed that this was an Unidentified Flying Object"

This was my original point. UK procedures and radar tracking were highly specialised, between NAVY and Airforce no unknown or unseen enemy craft has ever successfully penetrated mainland britain.

In modern times, this year and last the outer limits of the radar ring have been breached by Russians flying test manouvers, but to actually get to the coast unseen is near impossible.

PS the mainstay inner line of RADAR was built all around the coast at that time, it used some of the old CHAIN array facilities we used in WWII from the Chain Ring. Those were upgraded in the late 1940 early 50s to R3 systems when the threat of ICBMs from Russia was realised.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Here's a scary thought.

The pilot said "it was some sort of alien stalking above London" or whatever, right?

so I thought of single alien for some reason, and man, could you imagine the size of those aliens if it was just 1 of them in a single fighter craft, not even a mothership? Lol .. we'd be so dead.

Id be like .. HEYY .. I knew the Jewish Tanakh speaks about there being Giants on the Earth in the early days, but I didn't know they were THAT big! lol..

reply to post by stringue



I read the report as well (it was filed by a third party 31 years after the incident). There does not seem to any indication in the report that the encounter occurred over English soil.

During the cold war it was a common "game" on both sides to probe the detection capabilities of the other, approaching at low levels, then before getting "too close" ascending into detectable altitudes. A lot can be learned about the other side's defenses by this kind of activity.

What better (and worrisome to the other team) way to test the ability of your countermeasures to produce a false target on your enemy's equipment than to "light up" and watch the action? And, as the expert stated, a pretty bad idea to use it as a test against your own, unknowing forces.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Phage]

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by stringue

 

I read the report as well (it was filed by a third party 31 years after the incident). There does not seem to any indication in the report that the encounter occurred over English soil.

During the cold war it was a common "game" on both sides to probe the detection capabilities of the other, approaching at low levels, then before getting "too close" ascending into detectable altitudes. A lot can be learned about the other side's defenses by this kind of activity.

What better (and worrisome to the other team) way to test the ability of your countermeasures to produce a false target on your enemy's equipment than to "light up" and watch the action? And, as the expert stated, a pretty bad idea to use it as a test against your own, unknowing forces.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Phage]

Which technology are you suggesting Russia had at that time which would have fooled the latest R3 radar system?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by stringue

 

I read the report as well (it was filed by a third party 31 years after the incident). There does not seem to any indication in the report that the encounter occurred over English soil.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Phage]

"Perhaps because of the ground clutter I never got a
positive radar contact of the unknown. At this point, I believe
I was in in the vicinity of Norwich. As directed, I attempted to
get a visual contact when I closed to less than 2 miles, but was
unable. If the unknown was lighted, he must have blended with
the ground lights. "

Thats the report of the other fighter which flew with him, as originally stated he was over Norwich. Inland UK, somewhere no plane would get untracked.

Originally posted by silver6ix
I have claimed ANY UFO is an alien craft at any time in this thread or any other because there is no evidence to corroborate it so it would be pointless.

This is what you said:

Originally posted by silver6ix
This is a little egg on the face for those claiming no evidence of UFOs and also claiming governments and military havent covered them up.

The RAF were convinced enough to give a firing command over mainland UK which is a significant statement. Again we have heard over and over "there no threat..."

Saying you did not mean to say it is alien craft is nothing but an attempt at backtracking.

Assuming the event even happened at all as the pilot says, there still isn't any indication the craft could have been alien. I wonder if it was possibly a secret test at the time to see if their more 'advanced' aircraft could evade getting blown up as it flys around.

But then again I'm ever so slightly skeptical about the whole 'declassification' thing anyway. It seems they might be leading to something with a very gradual 4-year release of their files, probably starting off with the crappiest stuff.. Whether it's about aliens, or their own technology, or just simply to make us believe the government can hide such a thing, I have no idea.

Originally posted by silver6ix
This was my original point. UK procedures and radar tracking were highly specialised, between NAVY and Airforce no unknown or unseen enemy craft has ever successfully penetrated mainland britain...

As far as we know. There could be many incidents that have been concealed for national security reasons.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by SaviorComplex]

reply to post by silver6ix

Originally posted by silver6ix

Which technology are you suggesting Russia had at that time which would have fooled the latest R3 radar system?

The Soviets were quite accomplished in the field of ECM. In that era their dedicated airborne ECM platform was the Tu-16Ye which featured SPS-4M Klyukva jammer. Though the capabilities of that unit are hard to determine, one of the functions of any ECM platform is to attempt to produce false returns.

I find it a bit curious that the pilot that says "I believe I was in the vicinity of Norwich" also says he was at 3,000 feet was having difficulty getting a good return because of ground clutter. Ground clutter occurs when the radar is looking down. This would indicate that his target was below 3,000 feet. At the same time, the other pilot, at a much higher altitude, was able to get a very solid lock, indicating that his target was quite a lot higher than 3,000 ft.

The differing reports of both pilots and the description given of the CGI reports are consistent with false targets, possibly produced by ECM. It is possible there was no physical object at all.

Each pilot also recalls different occurances after returning to base. One says simply;

I do not recall being contacted one-on-one by anyone about keeping the details quiet.

While the other says;

In the squadron operations area, one of the sergeants came to me and brought me into the hallway around the side of the pilot's briefing room. He approached a civilian, [who] looked like an IBM salesman, with a dark blue trench coat. He immediately jumped into asking questions about the previous day's mission. I got the impression that he operated out of the 'States, but I don't know for sure. After my debriefing of the events, he advised me that this would be considered highly classified and that I should not discuss it with anybody, not even my commander. He threatened me with a national security breach if I breathed a word about it to anyone. He disappeared without so much as a good-bye, and that was that, as far as I was concerned. I was significantly impressed by the action and I have not spoken of this to anyone until recent years.

It seems odd that two pilots on the same mission would have been handled so differently. Did one just forget something that had made such a deep impression on the other? Did one embelish?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Phage]

This story was just on the morning news over here in Australia

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by silver6ix
I have claimed ANY UFO is an alien craft at any time in this thread or any other because there is no evidence to corroborate it so it would be pointless.

This is what you said:

Originally posted by silver6ix
This is a little egg on the face for those claiming no evidence of UFOs and also claiming governments and military havent covered them up.

The RAF were convinced enough to give a firing command over mainland UK which is a significant statement. Again we have heard over and over "there no threat..."

Saying you did not mean to say it is alien craft is nothing but an attempt at backtracking.

Yes I quite clearly said UFOs than you for confirming. Again, UFO doesnt mean Alien Craft, its just your choice to twist it that way. UFO means unidentified and if it was an lien craft it wouldnt be a UFO.