American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
reply to post by skeptic1

 

Is there honestly such a thing as 'responsible' ownership of guns? A gun is a thing that can end a life in a second. If someone is stealing your widescreen tv, does that one second of hate you have equate to taking a life? I've had a $5000 motorbike stolen from me and If i got a hold of the bastard I'd have shot him in the face in an instance, no question. But to be honest, two years later, is a peice of metal worth a life? with or without insurance? Yeah i got the money back, but to be honest i'm a pretty hard ass. I kn oe I would have regretted any spur of the moment action over 'property' which essentially means nothing.

All you've shown here is that YOU would NOT be a 'responsible' gun owner.

Don't paint everyone based on your faults.

Patriotism means you can question elements within your own Nation, but when another outside Nation comes into question, you always back America first no matter what. That is the Bottom Line, and if you do not like it, tough. I make no Apologies for my Nation and what it stands for, although I do feel a certain sizeable Population of Americans have forgotten what it means to be a true Patriot. The Founding Fathers are my Heroes, and I place the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution below God, but above most else. As a Patriot, you are guided by the Principals contained within the aforementioned. These Principals include: Morality, Humility, Loyalty, Honor, and Sacrifice. Above all else, this means placing the Good of the Nation above Self-Greed, Self-Envy, and Self-Preservation. The United States is above any single individual. We also believe In Liberty at all costs, and will refuse to ever submit to "Chains and Slavery".

It is very difficult to put it all into words, but I have made my best attempt to do so.

As to the Final Word on what a Patriot truly represents, here is a final word from John Adams (Founding Father and 2nd United States President): "Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives." -John Adams to Benjamin Rush, 18th of April, 1808.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
reply to post by YourForever

 

Have you ever seen or heard of a drive - by knifing? Or victims caught in a cross knifing? Knife victim are almost always the intended target.

Man to stand trial over Japan stabbings

A man who stabbed seven people to death in Japan has been deemed fit to stand trial, and will likely face the death penalty.

Prosecutors have indicted auto worker Tomohiro Kato, 26, over the killing spree, a court official said on Friday.

Kato has been charged with murder and attempted murder, the official said.

He was arrested on June 8 after he rammed a rented truck into pedestrians in the crowded Akihabara district and then got out to randomly stabbed people. Seven people died and 10 others were injured.

Anyway, this is going off post as the original point was patriotism, not which weapon best subdues the populace.

Seemed to me that you were really trying to find a way to denigrate the US with references towards US Patriots and nazi's, followed promptly by you stating this :

Gun owners kinda scare me aswell, like they need to over compensate for something, particularly the ones who cling onto the second ammendment like it was written yesterday - guns serve no purpose in a civilised society

Agenda, meet the open air...

I think a huge lot of people in America are really blind when something comes from outside.

Before the flaming starts, let me explain a few things:
1. I am not American, but work for NATO in a big base, and I personnally know a lot of Americans, all sorts of Americans: republicans, democrats, black or white, hispanic or asians, men, women, children, single or married, military or civilians, from CA to NY and WI to TX, etc., all sorts! I have several very good & close friends in Americans.
2. As a peace lover, I have always considered that all wars are stupid, however some of them are indeed based on "necessities".
3. As a matter of fact, Americans in general know little about the rest of the world, and that is the reason for most of the "stupid" patriotism.

So let's go...
1. When I hear people say "they hate America", it makes me sad. It is simply not true. If we exclude people who are totally blinded & brainwashed of course, there is an enormous difference to be made between hating the president, the politics, the way to do a war, etc. and a country, or i.e. its people. I have many good friends in Americans, again all sorts of Americans. Yet, I hate totally G.W. Bush, and I do totally hate his stupid policies, and I do really hate too the way about that war in Irak. So? What's the problem?

2. I have heard idiotic phrases like "If you're not with us, you're against us". That makes me scream louder than a volcano! In particular, I'm referring here to the war in Irak (again). So what the heck? So, probably 160 countries are against US then? Those mean that US is at war with basically the rest of the world then? Is there anything more stupid than that?

3. Apparently, for a lot of people, when criticizing the US, I am commiting a very serious offence. I don't see well how. US is and has been criticizing a lot of countries in the world too, and that doesn't make them ennemies!

As for the patriotism itself, which is the subject, read above. That above is what makes some kind of patriotism totally unacceptable. That is what makes a lot of people who are as blinded as those suicide bombers in other countries, also very stupid. That is what makes a number of people ignorant by choice: rejecting difference. The world cannot be different, to them. But I am sorry, the world is very different.

I live in a small country that's named Belgium. And I am really very proud about all the differences between here & the US, and the rest of the world. It is my country.

You know for instance, I have met people who complained all the time in here that there wasn't a King Burger or McDo available at every street corner. Well I'm sorry, but that crap is not welcome in Belgium, and that's our ways. We do care a lot more than you about what we eat. Eating means sitting at a table, with a plate, a fork and a knife. We don't eat with hands. If I go to US, I am totally saddened by the food. I can't have a steak the way I want (rare, very rare) because it's illegal. Fresh vegetables are nearly non existent, and amazingly expensive. You never have good leek, endives, asparagus, or others. Bread is tasteless. Fa(s)t food is everywhere. Even a simple canned soup tastes horrible... I could rant about it, but what's the point? Even a proper Italian restaurant over there serves a food that's not even close to italian, it has to "fit the taste of the people"... I know it, that's the way over there. Unless I'm willing to pay a fortune, I'm gonna eat crap. Fine. I'm coming back to Belgium...

We have a better education, we have better social aid, we have better health care, we have better food (absolutely way beyond question), we have better beer and wine, we have better chocolate, we have better media, we have many more things that are better, you wouldn't believe. We do also have things that are not as good (and I let you go quoting them, I'm sure you'll feel happy to do so).

But one way or another... Why do I say that it's better? Because I prefer it. If you do not like it, then fine, but let me prefer it! I say it is better because I think it is better. You do not? Once again, fine! There is something that a lot of people wrapped in their stars-and-striped-patriotism apparently cannot accept: let's just agree that we disagree. Between educated and good sensed people, difference is not a problem, it is an advantage!

I have even met a person (just one, luckily), about 5 years and a half ago (when that war started...), who was afraid to go out of the base!! He was, mind boggling thing, afraid to go out of the base, in Belgium! He thought he was in enemy territory!!! How totally astounding is this?

Patriotism should never forget that the rest of the world, the whole world has also the right to be patriots, and thus to be different.

Patriotism should never forget that someone else, being proud of their own country and ways, does not make an enemy because of that.

Patriotism should never forget that time elapses, things and people change, the world evolves, and today is not yesterday, as well as tomorrow will be different. Patriotism should not mean immobilism.

Finally, patriots should not forget that it's not because they'll wave their flag in front of me, proudly declaring "I am an American" (or for the record, any other country would do), it does not make them better. Liking your country is as personal as liking a song or a painting.

Patriotism was probably invented by some politician who had no support from his people, just as a reason to keep them liking him, by mistaking the president/king/... for the country, considering some sort of "the chief is the country".

Something to think about.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Why exactly have you only singled out American patriotism here? Patriotism for patriotisms sake worries me whichever country it comes from.

I think America gets singled out because it nurtures a form of patriotism that's actually fairly unique in the Western world in the way it's expressed. I say that as an observation rather than criticism; ultimately it's ingrained into American culture.

reply to post by anotherdad
So what do you think about the sanctions the USA and UK imposed on Iraq which killed over 500,000 children aged under five? Here is a video of Madeleine Albright saying on Sixty Minutes the USA thought it was "worth it". Rather conveniently, you forget to factor that into your view of America.

au.youtube.com...


And just in case you didn't know, a lot of other countries fought and died in WW2. The Russians lost over 20 million people and made it all the way to Berlin.

Nothing is black and white. You should WAKE UP!

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
I think America gets singled out because it nurtures a form of patriotism that's actually fairly unique in the Western world in the way it's expressed. I say that as an observation rather than criticism; ultimately it's ingrained into American culture.

You are kidding right? Have you never met a member of the BNP in the UK? Have you ever been to some of the more violent pubs and heard the racist, xenophobic, blindly patriotic ranting?

It happens in every country, we all have our pockets of fanatic patiots. People who will not hear anything against their country, even when it's doing something wrong.

The OP states this thread was about patriotism, he/she could of discussed that as a seperate topic, there was no reason to single out any country and it smacks of an agenda to me.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Patriotism is the basic instinct of tribalism & territoriality that from birth infects us all. Animals do it.... so do humans. What you might be seeking is what Jesus had to offer when He preached the Kingdom of God. If you only perceive Jesus as a "smart Jewboy born on the wrong side of the chariot tracks" then at least give the man credit for His brilliant socio-political analysis of the world. He attempted to end the animalistic wars over territory and resources by preaching that all must be "born again" into a new set of institutions that are not rooted in the dirt from which we emerged. It would work if more folks listened to Him. Unfortunately even so-called "believers" have perverted His message and now use it as white wash to disguise and fuel "patriotic" aggression for money/power/etc. Bush stated that "You are either with us or against us" when he began his "never ending war on terror". This was his way of saying you must show your "patriotism" or be targeted. When I first finished reading the Bible I actually slammed it down on the kitchen table and laughed. I knew exactly what this Jesus fellow was talking about. The "End Times" scenario describing persecution of "Christians" will be one of wars that demand "patriotism" from all citizens. Since "Christians" say that their Kingdom is not of this earth they will be attacked for not displaying what you have correctly defined to be the basis for all "terrorism"....... = Patriotism.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
Is it just me or does anyone else find American Patriotism worrying?

Most of the threads on this site, particularly from the southern states such as Texas, to name but a few, seem to blindly accept whatever America does without question.
It honestly reminds me of German Nationalism immediately prior to World War II, particularly the whole flag waving culture that now seems to be embedded in America.

The fact that Bush came into power under the guise of a 'War President' even before Iraq etc terrifies me and has no place in a modern civilization.

Anyway, this is not a 'Flame' on America. I hope some Americans can prove me wrong. Let's keep this civil, I'm just looking to be corrected.

Discuss!!

Fear nothing when you Patriotism centers upon the Constitution.

By the way your post was just spell corrected in the quote.

Seriously there is no nation called the United States without the Constitution, and as long as your Patriotism centers upon that basic premise then it is all right with me. On the other hand if it is blind Patriotism that operates as loyalty to the changing sands of politicians, minions, and elitists, then you are deceived.

To make a long story short, when government fears the people and not the reverse, then you have liberty.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by SkipShipman]

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
reply to post by skeptic1

 

If no-one else had a gun, why would you need one? Why not take away your right to own one? What's next? Don't take away my right to own Inter continental Ballistic Missiles?

An exaggeration but i'm sure the reasonable amongst you will gt my point.

So what's the difference between patriotism and blind patriotism?

In the end it seem to me that you all follow it till it goes wrong then you claim ou were following 'the other form of patriotism'.

But anyway, what is the deal with a 'war president'?

Irregardless of who owns a gun or not, if an old woman living alone in a bad neighborhood did not have a gun she would/could be at the mercy of whoever wants to accost her (as sad as that is). You must agree that an old woman or old man would be at a severe disadvantage against a younger assailant, so your point that "If no-one else had a gun, why would you need one?" makes no sense, This world is scary enough for the elderly and you want to completely disarm them.. thanks but NO thanks.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

You are kidding right? Have you never met a member of the BNP in the UK? Have you ever been to some of the more violent pubs and heard the racist, xenophobic, blindly patriotic ranting?

There's a good chance that I've 'ran' into more members of the BNP and groups like Blood and Honour than you have and certainly more than I think you think I have.

It happens in every country, we all have our pockets of fanatic patiots. People who will not hear anything against their country, even when it's doing something wrong.

You're completely misunderstanding my point. I'm not speaking specifically about a peculiar and specific xenophobic, racist subsection of society. As you say yourself, that appears everywhere. I'm not suggesting that that is somehow unique to America and I've certainly not said that explicitly in my post. I'm talking about a more general patriotism and pride in their country.

What I am saying is true: there's no country in the Western world that encourages patriotism in the way that America does. Are you seriously suggesting Britain has a patriot culture in the same way America does?

We don't have a flag culture in the same way America does. Our flag waving is perceived as having a very different connotation than it does in America and we don't have a 'pledge' in this country. Pride in the flag is generally seen as an anachronism here or the domain of racists, or football fans or fans of the 'swinging sixties'. This was proven by our own government when they tried to instil a 'Cool Britannia' ethic during the early days of New Labour - it was acknowledged by our own government that there was a lack of national pride and patriotism.

We don't have a patriotism that's based on the belief that we're the epicentre of everything that matters in the world - which is, right or wrong, how a lot of Americans see it due to recent/current 'superpower' status.

I'm really not sure of how you can compare Britain with American in this.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

American patriotism scares me much in the same way that Zionism does; it is merely a tool for exclusion. I believe we should be working towards an understanding that all humans on this Earth are essentially one and the same, that we share the same goals and aspirations for living without suffering and mutual cooperation. In my opinion the modern form of flag-waving American patriotism does too much to 'other' the rest of the world, rather than merely bolster a sense of national pride. It is a form of exclusion which I am personally averse to.

Just thought I'd throw in some tasty statistics in regards to gun ownership in the US, a culture I truly cannot understand.

Chances of owning a gun: 34%
Chances of getting murdered: 0.0057%

Given that most murders are localised to less-economically developed regions and gang violence, your chances of getting murdered in the middle-to-upper class suburbs is very small.

My point is not that gun ownership is unnecessary, it's just that the American fear of crime is completely disproportionate to the reality.

Compare this with my home of South Africa in which every 1 in 2000 people are murdered annually!

reply to post by The_Modulus


What????? Questioning the justification for owning a gun???? Showing the statitistics to prove that justification for owning a gun is utterly insane is completely anti-American. We need to say we need them for protection even if we have almost nothing to protect ourselves from, are cowards when a riot DOES break out, and hand them over willingly to the group of AK weilding soldiers that come to confiscate them during times of crisis.

I see alot of big talk on this thread but so far it is nothing more than just that. All the people that feel they only way they can prove they love America is to own a gun are really passing something wonderful along to the next generation arent they. Healthcare? Jobs? Affordable food and housing? You do not need such things my children, you have the right to own a gun until it is confiscated!

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
The fact that Bush came into power under the guise of a 'War Presiedent' even before Iraq etc terrifies me and has no place in a modern civilisation.

What's to discuss. You presented a straw man.

Even in the South there are those who oppose Bush and in the North there are those who support Bush.

Besides that, your basic premise that Bush "came into power under the guise of a "War President" is utterly false--completely without merit.

That Bush redefined his presidency after the worst attack ever carried out on American soil is to his credit and should reassure all Americans, but as you point out all Americans are not fully in touch with reality, but as you fail to note, too many of those lack any sense of patriotism, at all.

Actually, your premise is just a bigoted, left wing misconception.

That Bush redefined his presidency after the worst attack ever carried out on American soil is to his credit and should reassure all Americans, but as you point out all Americans are not fully in touch with reality, but as you fail to note, too many of those lack any sense of patriotism, at all.

I am sorry but can you explain to me what you are saying Bush deserves credit for. Are you saying he deserves the Guliani award of just happening to be in that role on that day? Are you saying Bush deserves credit for the attacks? What is it he deserves credit for? I guess I am just losing the point in your statement.

[edit on 10/11/08 by MorningStar8741]

Having read most of the posts I do find it interesting that those who start these threads and respond don't list where they are from under the locations. I know many do but not enough when responding to threads such as this.

It is easy to to spew things about other countries based on what you read or hear but until you live under that countries government it is hard to say for sure what it is like.

I do realize a lot of posters are well educated and can form a basic opinion about a country or culture but come and live in the US before you bash it. Sure that wasn't the premise of the OP but reading through the thread I have seen many feel the need to defend the US, myself included.

No I don't like everything about my country but I will defend it and it's constitution.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
I guess I am just losing the point in your statement.

My statement needs no clarification.

It is stated clearly enough.

You obviously just disagree and want to play coy, or you haven't been paying attention.

Originally posted by anotherdad
reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

 

What country are you from?

And you refer to America like the Nazi's, Who's land have we taken. We gave France, Germany, Spain, Italy, soon Iraq..............on so on there land back.

Wow, it is exactly that type of nonsense that makes you scary. You gave those nations nothing but your bullsh_t capitalism. Now YOU need to pay up, but you never will. You'd rather take down the rest of the world with you.
THAT is what is scary about many americans; they seem to forget they live under one and the same Sun as everybody else on this planet, they're NOT special, they're not better at anything, they've merely been lucky with a couple of their backgrounds (which most americans don't even know anything about). On average they're rather stupid, even. (Exceptions not counted of course..)
In addition, those history lessons you seem to get in school in the US are way biased in favor of the scary patriotism. In case you forgot:
There was no America, it got discovered by Europeans. So if anything, those Europeans helped their parents, nothing more nothing less. So shut it already with your BS about that.

Nations and some idiotic lines drawn on maps of our planet are the ONLY reason humanity is still so retarded. Patriotism is just the extension of that; the ridiculous concept of "owning land". You don't own sh_t, people, this planet owns you and you better learn how to deal with that.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by Slagroom]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
My statement needs no clarification.

I agree with Grady. The subject says it all: American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

That's why I love people that hold hands with Saudi dictators like Bush, and send our jobs overseas like Bush, and deregulate the greediest corporations that destroy the middle class like Bush, and soften our Constitutional rights like Bush, and give billions in tax breaks to big oil like Bush.

Because people like Obama scare me. I heart McCain/Palin rallies where they scream "Kill him!" at Obama for the same reason. Because an American patriot like Obama should scare you.

Boogity boogity Grady! Boogity boogity.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
I guess I am just losing the point in your statement.

My statement needs no clarification.

It is stated clearly enough.

You obviously just disagree and want to play coy, or you haven't been paying attention.

No, I do not get what you feel Bush deserves credit for in relation to 9/11. It appears as though you are saying he deserves credit for being president when it happend.