There is hope...a solution to end suffering in our time

Originally posted by Oreyeon
Money is not the problem. Get rid of money, and another scape goat will appear. The problem in the world since the conception of man is EGO. Get rid of Ego, and we will have Utopia.

I agree completely. And this is the core of why "project venus" can never exist - ego will still reign, and it'll be turned into absolute chaos without any way to reign it in.

It is Greed that is the root of all evil. Not money. It is greed that will never go away. It is innate in human nature to be greedy. Greed is what drives us to work and 'move up' in the ranks. It's to make more money and 'better our lives.' I'm not saying we don't stare at propaganda all day long, because we do. I also believe money is an easy way of obtaining a view of wealthy. The easier it is to be wealthy to less productive things we do. This is why the 'elites' push so hard for money to retain its value. For easy wealth. It's a lot easier to have a piece of plastic and a bank statement along with any recreational possessions to prove my overall wealth versus a mansion, several million gold coins, an abundance of cattle, food, clean water... etc. So there is reason why people in power remain in power. Because they own and control the flow of money. I see both sides in their own respects. "Bartering" can never not occur. Therefore exchange always exists. Money is so widely accepted because of its portability. It's a lot easier to 'lose' its value; however, when it is so widely spread to only so few. People eventually will abandon money if this continues to go on and go back to the old days of bartering. Money thrives on that greed, corrupting more people than simple bartering would. Not to say crime wouldn't exist. But certainly the people would 'take care of the problem' if need be. I don't have the answer but I certainly don't mind sharing my opinion. I hope to hear others as well.

LowLevelMason... worship Lucifer much?

Greed is good.... that sounds like something a Satanist/Luciferian would say.

You're a Mason? Isn't Masonry about brotherhood and goodwill towards man? Or am I just buying into the Masonic propaganda by saying that?

Greed is good?

Imagine if society was built with goodwill towards men, brotherhood, and cooperation with each other in mind. People who say greed is good would be dealt with swiftly.

Isn't it funny that Masons founded this country? Is it any coincidence that Masons are accused of being Luciferian in nature, and the country they founded basically epitomizes many aspects of the Luciferian/Satanist philosophies?

You'd be wise to not do your Masonic moniker any more harm by possibly stop promoting the very thing Masons are supposedly not about.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by dunwichwitch]

reply to post by seize


watch the video clip i provided. Greed is NOT born or innate in human beings. Its the system of profit and scarcity that breeds greed.

Originally posted by seize
It is Greed that is the root of all evil. Not money. It is greed that will never go away. It is innate in human nature to be greedy. Greed is what drives us to work and 'move up' in the ranks. It's to make more money and 'better our lives.'

Greed is merely a thing spawned in a scarcity paradigm.

Tell me how greed plays in if you have anything and everything you both need and want, whenever you look to have it - and so does everyone else. Explain how greed might manifest in a world of abundance. If you would, please.

It is NOT human nature to be greedy, except when one thinks one might not get enough, because if one doesn't take a bunch, other might take whatever it is and one might get none.

Greed is different from ambition, or a desire to live better, so it is not what motivates us to do better. Doing better is part of taking on more more responsibility. Moving upwards in an established path is ambition. Trying to get a raise is not greed; it, too, is ambition.

Not approving a life-saving operation for a sick person insured by your company - THAT is greed. Artificially creating a scarcity of something to sell it at a higher price - THAT is greed. Greed implies something immoral.

but if there is no money, and an abundance of food, shelter, clothing, and all other stuff, there cannot be greed.

[edit on 10/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

You can't honestly believe that certain humans will settle for what's available. You are kidding yourself. Money or not people desire 'more.' That is greed. It is more dominant in some than others. It doesn't simply 'go away.' If greed would simply cease to exist with the elimination of money, explain to me, if you're aware of the history, why money was ever invented to begin with... could it be... greed?

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
LowLevelMason... worship Lucifer much?

What is it with you and your obsession with Lucifer? Were you aware that Lucifer is the name of a Persian prince in the bible and got mistranslated as Satan? Really, if your going to be so obsessed with it you should know about the origins.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Greed is good.... that sounds like something a Satanist/Luciferian would say.

Please do your research before you speak. First satanism and luciferianism are not the same things, and never have been. Second no, that would be something that any capitalist would say, and it has nothing to do with your obsession with Lucifer.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
You're a Mason? Isn't Masonry about brotherhood and goodwill towards man? Or am I just buying into the Masonic propaganda by saying that?

Nice try to manipulate - but you've failed. Who said goodwill doesn't come from greed? Are you so simple that you can't comprehend of charity existing along with greed? Or that, gasp, people can be motivated by profit and be charitable? SAY IT ISNT SO!

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Imagine if society was built with goodwill towards men, brotherhood, and cooperation with each other in mind. People who say greed is good would be dealt with swiftly.

Yeah, isn't that the type of society you'd love - where everyone who doesn't agree with your ideology is "dealt with swiftly" - Hitler is proud of you.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Isn't it funny that Masons founded this country? Is it any coincidence that Masons are accused of being Luciferian in nature, and the country they founded basically epitomizes many aspects of the Luciferian/Satanist philosophies?

Of course it IS funny, because Masons didn't found this country. The vast majority of men involved were not masons. It is however no coincidence that ignorant people accuse everything they don't understand as somehow being "luciferian" - paranoid people do that.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
You'd be wise to not do your Masonic moniker any more harm by possibly stop promoting the very thing Masons are supposedly not about.

Actually I'll post whatever I want. I don't speak for freemasonry, no one does. People like you, however, will always find something wrong with everyone who doesn't conform to your incredibly paranoid view of the world.

Originally posted by seize
You can't honestly believe that certain humans will settle for what's available. You are kidding yourself. Money or not people desire 'more.' That is greed. It is more dominant in some than others. It doesn't simply 'go away.' If greed would simply cease to exist with the elimination of money, explain to me, if you're aware of the history, why money was ever invented to begin with... could it be... greed?

Settle??? In a world of abundance? You've got to be kidding me!

Lessee. If I can have what I want when I want it...what am I "settling" for? If EVERYONE can have anything and all that they want, anytime, anywhere...what is "settling?"

Money was developed as a means to facilitate the barter system - in a world where one's labors were used to support one.

In a world where one's labors are NOT required to have what one needs to survive, and not only that but have EVERYTHING one wants, money becomes moot.

When all things no one finds bliss in doing are done by technology so that there is nothing anyone HAS to do, greed has no meaning.

reply to post by Amaterasu


well said my friend

If people would co-operate together and work on stuff just for the fun of it, don't you think folks would have got together by now and built a free Operating System so we didn't all have to be reliant on Windows, and support eevil Microsoft?

Originally posted by Kailassa
If people would co-operate together and work on stuff just for the fun of it, don't you think folks would have got together by now and built a free Operating System so we didn't all have to be reliant on Windows, and support eevil Microsoft?

Hmmm.... I seem to vaguely recall hearing about something called Linux... GNU... GIMP... Um. I'm sure they're mythical, though.

Ok so most nay-sayers seem comfertable blaming the way of the world and the flaws in the system on greed.

But what is greed after all? Is it a human condition that we are born with? Do we step into this world wanting more than everyone else? In the natural world greed is necessary for survival an animal who has greed and wants more will win out over the animal who is content with what they have for now.

Humans however do not live in the natural world anymore. We live in society, we left the natural world for a world of comfort a world where survival was attainable to all. So if greed was a natural instinct we should have left it behind when we became civilized, when we left the natural world that follows one rule "survival of the fittest".

Or is greed a human philosophy. A philosophy can be wrong and flawed, it can also be forgotten and thrown aside for newer and better philosophies that make much more sense and help all people survive in a world where we can all survive and live very comfortably.

We dont need to be greedy we dont need to have everything to ourselves thats why we moved out of the natural world and into society, so that we could all survive so that our species could learn and grow and protect each other from the dangers of the natural world. So we could protect ourselves from failed primitive philosophies that turn us against our own species, and limit our evolution.

Originally posted by caballero
Ok so most nay-sayers seem comfertable blaming the way of the world and the flaws in the system on greed.

But what is greed after all? Is it a human condition that we are born with?

No. I know many who just want enough to get by, myself included.

Do we step into this world wanting more than everyone else?

No. I think it is learned behavior. Many societies have done fine without such a manifestation, based on love and compassion, and respect of others.

In the natural world greed is necessary for survival an animal who has greed and wants more will win out over the animal who is content with what they have for now.

Not so. Most animals take what they need. Else carrion feeders would be SOL. The predators would leave them nothing. Animals only exhibit greed-like behavior in times of scarcity. In times of abundance, they do not.

Humans however do not live in the natural world anymore. We live in society, we left the natural world for a world of comfort a world where survival was attainable to all. So if greed was a natural instinct we should have left it behind when we became civilized, when we left the natural world that follows one rule "survival of the fittest".

Even in this world of comfort, there is an overlaying paradigm of scarcity. So there is a tendency to think, I better get mine and then some if I don't want to starve. If we lived in abundance, and could see this around us, greed would not manifest. "Greed" would not even be meaningful.

Or is greed a human philosophy.

It is not a philosophy. It is a behavior arising from a paradigm of scarcity.

A philosophy can be wrong and flawed, it can also be forgotten and thrown aside for newer and better philosophies that make much more sense and help all people survive in a world where we can all survive and live very comfortably.

Agreed, but since greed is not a philosophy, this is tangential.

We dont need to be greedy we dont need to have everything to ourselves thats why we moved out of the natural world and into society, so that we could all survive so that our species could learn and grow and protect each other from the dangers of the natural world.

In a scarcity paradigm, which really isn't comfortable for most, as they are uncomfortable worrying - about things like: Will I keep my job and be able to feed my family? Will I have enough to eat? Will I be able to keep a roof over my head? Can I afford the clothing my children need? ... In a scarcity paradigm, greed will manifest.

So we could protect ourselves from failed primitive philosophies that turn us against our own species, and limit our evolution.

Again, it is a behavior, not a philosophy. We can alter our behavior, I agree, by thinking (and therefore feeling) differently about things. But as long as there is a scarcity paradigm, someone will freak out and get greedy.

[edit on 10/9/2008 by Amaterasu]

I'm enjoying the debate in this thread it mean's alot of people are seriously looking into what the Venus Project is proposing and certianly that's not a bad thing.I really think that an open resource system may very well be the answer,but I feel we have a long way to go before this becomes remotely possible.Evolution did not stop once we had oposeable thumbs y'all,it's in the TPTB interests and those who feel threatend by any kind of change to make us think we are in the apex of our society we can do better we must do better that's the message of the Venus Project to me.


[edit on 9-10-2008 by mike dangerously]

clearly we arent born with greed in our hearts. Its a learned behavior from living in a society based on scarcity of resources.

The native american indian tribes didnt really use money. They did barter outside their tribe but within all resources were shared.

Only when the Europeans forced the native americans onto reservations and pacified them with death and liquor did they learn about greed.

Only a foolish person would continue doing the same thing over and over. Thats us....foolish. Our system of forced scarcity and money hasnt brought us peace in thousands of years. Money hasnt ended starvation, it in fact helps reinforce it.

Its time to try something else

reply to post by admriker444


Ahhh yes. Good point. Scarcity seems to cause the greed in people. I think Jacque Fresco said that did he not? I think he did.

My only worry is what he said about crime. Could people still not steal other people's "resources?

Originally posted by Unlimitedpossibilities
reply to post by admriker444

 

Ahhh yes. Good point. Scarcity seems to cause the greed in people. I think Jacque Fresco said that did he not? I think he did.

Yep.

My only worry is what he said about crime. Could people still not steal other people's "resources?

I'm trying to envision this... You have everything you need and want, so you go "steal" resources...? I'm not following the logic here.

All resources are used by the robots to produce what is needed/wanted and then they distribute the items world-wide. So, why is anyone stealing...?

[edit on 10/11/2008 by Amaterasu]

I read a great analogy once by a star trek fan. It went something like this...


You are transported to the future. You are given a nice home and told there is a replicator device in there that can satisfy your needs.

You immediately have this technology create stacks of gold, diamonds, rubies, silver, and platinum. You stack the stuff in a room.

You then have the replicator make Kobe steaks and fill the fridge with. You follow this up with lobsters oh and might as well fill the wine rack up with only the finest wines.

Next up you have the replicator make fur coats, fine linens, silk scarfs, leather shoes, etc.

This goes on for days until the house is filled to the ceiling with goods. However you soon realize how silly and utterly pointless this was.

You have all your needs met. You have no need to hoard resources now. You have no need to work a demeaning job. You have no need for diamonds, gold, or paper money.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by Unlimitedpossibilities
reply to post by admriker444

 

Ahhh yes. Good point. Scarcity seems to cause the greed in people. I think Jacque Fresco said that did he not? I think he did.

Yep.

My only worry is what he said about crime. Could people still not steal other people's "resources?

I'm trying to envision this... You have everything you need and want, so you go "steal" resources...? I'm not following the logic here.

All resources are used by the robots to produce what is needed/wanted and then they distribute the items world-wide. So, why is anyone stealing...?

[edit on 10/11/2008 by Amaterasu]

Assuming for the moment that it is a 100% proven fact that greed is not innate and that scarcity is what causes human greed, then we have no greed once scarcity is eliminated; hence no crime.

My logic is simple. I want to make sure that this is going to work before suggesting it as an alternative and eventual implementation.

People may steal just for fun. That is all I was speculating at the time of my last post. I was thinking of kids especially. They are indeed clean slates, definitely in terms of ethics. Maybe the new enlightenment of parenting with eliminate this as well?

EDIT: However, maybe I am just being too much of a perfectionist.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Unlimitedpossibilities]

Originally posted by Unlimitedpossibilities
Assuming for the moment that it is a 100% proven fact that greed is not innate and that scarcity is what causes human greed, then we have no greed once scarcity is eliminated; hence no crime.

It can be "proven," via thought, that if one has nothing one cannot have (as illustrated above by admriker444), the concept of "greed" is meaningless. It absolutely HAS to arise out of a scarcity paradigm. For only when things are scarce, only when you CANNOT have what you want, will you think you need to take more. If you know that food of your choosing is always there to have, why would you try to "get more than" someone else? Pointless.

My logic is simple. I want to make sure that this is going to work before suggesting it as an alternative and eventual implementation.

It will work if we can access the tech the Elite have... If there is a Prometheus who brings us the fire of free energy, steps away from the self-proclaimed "Gods" and offers us all the other tech.

Or... If enough of us work to gain the tech ourselves, in such large numbers they cannot quash it all.

Now I won't say that issues won't arise occasionally out of jealousy, perhaps, but if LOVE is promoted, honor and respect, and the opportunity to drown one's sorrows in doing something one LOVES to do, that gives one satisfaction... Even that will be rare and can be dealt with on an individual basis.

Crimes against others usually have to do with a desire to have power in one's own life. When one has the power to direct one's life any way one wishes, right from the get-go, such behavior will diminish and possibly vanish within society. For this reason the Venus Project suggests it may even be possible to eliminate laws altogether.

People may steal just for fun.

People think it's "fun" to steal because it gives them some degree of power over the victim. but in reality, all it would do is, at most, minorly annoy someone because they have to go get another (whatever was stolen).

And between already having power over one's life, combined with the act of stealing being of such little power value, I can't see anyone in the high-tech, resource-driven economy thinking such extreme pettiness was "fun" to begin with.

That is all I was speculating at the time of my last post. I was thinking of kids especially. They are indeed clean slates, definitely in terms of ethics. Maybe the new enlightenment of parenting with eliminate this as well?

It will be more an empowerment of the children to seek their bliss, to follow it once found, that will make the most profound changes. Kids will NOT be hanging around with nothing to do...unless that is what they are choosing to do in any given moment. But if they decide to choose to do what they love to do...since that opportunity is always there...they will not be choosing to be vandalish, thiefish, rude, obnoxious, etc., because those behaviors arise from a disrespect of them as humans combined with a thwarting of their desire to follow their bliss.

EDIT: However, maybe I am just being too much of a perfectionist.

What I suspect, and this is what many here have issues with, is that it is difficult for you to grasp the mental state of one in a life where abundance is shared by all, where if you want it, it is yours. You seem to be applying the behaviors you see around you in our scarcity paradigm and assuming they will carry over into the abundance paradigm.

But the fact is that really very little will transfer except LOVE, honor, respect, warmth, giving, caring and so one.

And it has to do with the fact that in this scarcity paradigm, most feel, to one extent or another, powerless. Therefore, they try to gain power in any method possible. And rather like attention (which IS a form of power), any power - even negative - is better than no power at all.

But in a paradigm of abundance... You have full power over your life. No one else does. This is why you are free to follow your bliss. You are...free.

[edit on 10/12/2008 by Amaterasu]