There is hope...a solution to end suffering in our time

I've said it before and I'll say it again, money has got to go. Its the power of money and its scarcity principles that enable suffering on a world-wide scale.

Unfortunately our society today can not fathom a world without money. There are numerous reasons...

an education system corrupted by the elite's monetary system - They teach my son about how to be a good worker, how to be more productive, how to get and maintain a good credit score....what they dont teach him is how to be a thinker. As Rockefeller said after he founded the General Education Board "i want a nation of workers, not a nation of thinkers"
The education system simply exists to continue the system of a slave work force.

lower intelligence due to toxic wastes such as flouride, pestisides, and genetically modified foods with purposely designed lower nutrition levels.

Scarcity - We begin our existence only knowing scarcity. Shortages of food, water, clothing, etc forced humanity to covet hoarding. This led to today's system of profit. We know nothing else and the powers at the top of the pyramid dont wish us to know. It would end their power. However with today's technology there is no need to force scarity on us. Its artificial.

The solution is obvious, abundance of resources. We have plenty to go around. We could give every human being on this planet an acre of land and it wouldnt fill up the country of Australia. We've been lied too, there is plenty to go around.

Abundance would mean the end of money. This in turn would lead to the end of power, slavery, and control by the global elite. It would end wars and poverty. It would make crime signifigantly decline as there's no need to steal and rob to survive anymore. Drugs would practically disappear as there's no more profit in it and the users will have no need to escape their pain.

So how do we achieve this abundance....through technology. Technology can free us from mundane tasks. It can give us more leisure time. It can end hunger. It can end inefficiency and waste. We have the knowledge today to end dependance on fossil fuels and the solution is abundant in nature.

I urge you all to visit The Venus Project to see how we can achieve a totally new way to live.

www.thevenusproject.com...

They go into some detail on how this utopia can happen if we only allow it.

Taken from their website here www.thevenusproject.com...

"Money is only important in a society when certain resources for survival must be rationed and the people accept money as an exchange medium for the scarce resources. Money is a social convention, an agreement if you will. It is neither a natural resource nor does it represent one. It is not necessary for survival unless we have been conditioned to accept it as such."

If you havent seem it, the zeitgeist folks have made a new movie that references The Venus Project numerous times. It goes into great detail about the monetary system being inherently corrupt and unsustainable.

video.google.com...

If you wont watch the whole video, at least tune into the 1 hr and 7 minute mark area. It talks about scarcity and how it controls us.

There is hope folks but time is running out. We must realize that no elected official is going to save us. There is no law thats going to make us safe and well fed. We need a total change and getting rid of money is the means.

Thing is at some point it is never about money. It is about power and secrecy. About one upmanship and holier than thou.

I agree with most of what you say. Money is fictitious. It’s the root of our all problems today and controls society. It would take some serious protesting to get the message across. Imagine groups of people marching the streets dumping their money in a large pile and setting it to ablaze.

Wow, sounds like it would make a good movie.

I know Zeitgeist has almost its own mini-religion on ATS where questioning it is viewed as blasphemous, but after watching the video its quite clear:

This is environmental communism reborn. Nothing less, nothing more.

The Venus Project:

- Where everyone is free to do whatever they want, except have a religion because Z:A says that is evil. So your not really free - unless you agree with the Z:A ideology.
- Where no one has to do anything, so its unclear who is going to fix the technology that makes everything free when it breaks (and technology always breaks)
- Where no one has a reason to be innovative, because you are given everything for free (so its not quite clear how we're going to get to such a high technology society in the first place).
- Where anarchy rules, because there is no law and no state. Z:A forgets that crimes of passion exist, and that money does not cause all crimes. Sometimes people do just kill other people without a money motivation. In Project Venus this is going to be allowed, since no police are going to be around to stop it from happening.

Proclaiming that money is the root of all evil is simpleton and populist. Nothing is innately wrong with money or profit, both have spurned innovation that would not have otherwise existed.

By the way, the most amusing part of these "documentaries" is they spend hours scaring you and telling you that money is fictional, and then turn around and tell you a evil shadowy cabal of corporate bankers wants nothing more than your money. Which they just claimed the bankers made up and know has no value. Inconsistent much?

[edit on 5-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Thank god Love is not the answer, that would be too hard.

I was hoping someone would start this thread about a resource economy. Starred and flagged.

reply to post by LowLevelMason


money doesnt create innovation, it suppresses it. There is technologies out there that wont see a shelf for 50 years because of profit.

Look at the oil industry. Rather than allow electric cars that dont pollute and use a solar power charger to run, big oil lobbies govts to suppress them.

And instead of allowing free energy technologies to flourish as the next energy solution big oil offers inferior (but controllable) alternates like hydrogen or biofuel (both owned by big oil)

In a yr or two we will see more electric cars and hybrids but they are vastly inferior to what we know is possible. Its all meant as a delay to ensure every single drop of oil and profit is extracted from the ground.

When asked why California should repeal the zero emissions legislation the excuse was it would devastate the economy. The economy the elite admit requires cars to break down and need repair. They need oil changes, replace air filters, and more.

In essence, the elite need stuff to break down and be replaced as its the lifeblood of a debt based system of currency. If a car doesnt need repairs or replacement the elite's economy falls apart.

Heck what do you think this whole stinkin bailout with Wall street is about ? Its about creating debt so banks can lend it which leads to more consumption. Its the very foundation of the world's money system.

Any innovation we've had is in spite of our monetary system. And once somethings invented its usually bought up (or stolen) and the patent never gets implemented.

Your response demonstrates the fallacies of this "documentary."

There is no proof or evidence that "greed" is holding back advances in technology. In fact, the proof is just the opposite: greed drives advances in technology. If there was a shadowy cabal of bankers attempting to keep us from advancing for profit, please tell me why we have computers, the internet, cell phones, or any of the other technological advances of the past 40 years?

The auto industry is a excellent example of why greed is good. I don't want any company pushing some electric car on me that I don't want. I'm not going to buy into environmental fascism to have people force me into what type of vehicle I choose to drive. I love my gas driving SUV and when it dies, I'll buy another one. If you want to drive a matchbox on wheels that's your choice and you can do so - don't force me to do it.

The truth of the matter is Z:A is propaganda. There is no free energy solution, and if there was oil companies would jump at it - all of the methods Z:A talks about can still be owned and sold to consumers. Unfortunately none of them are viable alternatives: wind energy is a LULU item, solar panels are not efficient enough compared to traditional electric power, tidal current power is in its infancy, and geothermal is extraordinarily expensive to operate.

Greed is good. Its what drives innovation, and it is what has brought us all of our technological innovations today. There is a reason why you can't name one technological innovation that was created without someone making a profit of it: without that greedy urge to make a profit, no one would bother.

The whole "you vs the elite" is a illusion drawn to make your life easier. People want to believe in some evil elite group hell bent to control their lives because it makes it easy to explain their life circumstances and blame someone else when life doesn't go as they like it. Its fear mongering, and its not based in reality.

All innovation has come because of our monetary system. None of it has come from the environmental communism pushed by Z:A.

reply to post by LowLevelMason


While I can see your point about environmental communism, and it's something I noticed and worried about as well when watching it.

I simply can not see how or why you think the current monetary system is so great. It's not, it's an obvious scam and transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor.

You say all innovation has come because of the monetary system . I will say it has come despite it. The only time the monetary system has advanced even loosely is when military advancements get turned into civilian applications, and even that is generally done in ways to support specific companies with specific agendas and technology increases as a way of drawing in even more revenue for those projects.

And it can hardly be people looking to shift blame, when the majority of the problems with things like drugs are the result of the laws, not the drugs. And of course that little evidence on how we have increased opium production in afganistan.

I don't want their environmental fascism, and I don't want your economic slavery fascism either. I want freedom and liberty, which comes from free markets and honest monetary systems. And free markets don't include Washington DC passing laws against electric cars.

Originally posted by badmedia
I simply can not see how or why you think the current monetary system is so great. It's not, it's an obvious scam and transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor.

No system is perfect. The current one is the best we've tried, and the best option I've seen.

It is true that the current system is a scam of transferring wealth from the rich to the poor. And that is wrong. But that is not the product of the monetary system itself, that's the product of government corruption because of things like welfare. End government wealth redistribution from stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, and large parts of the problem are fixed.

Originally posted by badmedia
You say all innovation has come because of the monetary system . I will say it has come despite it. The only time the monetary system has advanced even loosely is when military advancements get turned into civilian applications, and even that is generally done in ways to support specific companies with specific agendas and technology increases as a way of drawing in even more revenue for those projects.

You can say this kind of stuff but its not based in reality. You can't list one innovation that happened without money. Just one, where no one profited and everyone advanced technology because we felt good about it. You won't find one. Why? Because greed drives technology. Its a good thing.

Originally posted by badmedia
And it can hardly be people looking to shift blame, when the majority of the problems with things like drugs are the result of the laws, not the drugs. And of course that little evidence on how we have increased opium production in afganistan.

What are you talking about? Do you think people only go to jail for drugs? Crimes of passion exist.

Originally posted by badmedia
I don't want their environmental fascism, and I don't want your economic slavery fascism either. I want freedom and liberty, which comes from free markets and honest monetary systems. And free markets don't include Washington DC passing laws against electric cars.

Good, because you don't have economic slavery - thats Z:A propaganda. You've got freedom and liberty, now you have to use it. Note that freedom and liberty don't make life easy. It doesn't mean everything is handed to you. You still have to work for it. And..finally, Washington never passed a law against electric cars.

[edit on 6-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
-I love my gas driving SUV and when it dies, I'll buy another one.

-The truth of the matter is Z:A is propaganda. There is no free energy solution, and if there was oil companies would jump at it

-Greed is good. Its what drives innovation

What you are saying here is complete and utter nonsense in my opinion. Saying that there is no free energy solution is simply untrue. Has anyone noticed that the sun is up 12 hours a day? Solar energy IS free and IS infinite. Combined with the other forms of energy you mention ( not that it's really needed) provides the earth with INFINITE FREE ENERGY, and that's a hard fact like it or not. It's this kind of thinking leads to poverty, violence, corruption ect..., even if you don't realize it. Finally, greed isn't good, selflessness and good will toward others is good. Like they said in the Zeitgeist movie, if you made a painting, just giving it away would be rewarding because you know that you've just made somebody else happy by something constructive that you did.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by ironmaiden54]

[edit on 7-10-2008 by ironmaiden54]

I have noticed that alot of people are freaked out by the ideas put forth in Z:A we have the bible thumpers up in arms because they can't imagine a life without releigion,dispite the fact no one involved with the Venus project ever said anything about it.others really believe we can still salvage this society,we have people who can't imagine that our current system is the reason we are in trouble but hey at least progressive capitalism will save us in the end right? I'm glad this flim is bringing new ideas forward for disscussion.

Originally posted by ironmaiden54
What you are saying here is complete and utter nonsense in my opinion.

How ironic, because that seems to be what your doing.

Originally posted by ironmaiden54
Saying that there is no free energy solution is simply untrue. Has anyone noticed that the sun is up 12 hours a day? Solar energy IS free and IS infinite.

Oh please. Yeah, did you also notice that stars in the sky 24/7? The existence of energy does not mean it can be harnessed for human purposes. Its NOT free because no ones going to be innovative enough to create the technology to harness it EFFICIENTLY AND EFFECTIVELY unless they are paid. Its made quite a few leaps, but its not there yet.

Its a hard fact that you don't seem to understand that the existence of energy does not mean we know how to use it.

Originally posted by ironmaiden54
It's this kind of thinking leads to poverty, violence, corruption ect..., even if you don't realize it. Finally, greed isn't good, selflessness and good will toward others is good. Like they said in the Zeitgeist movie, if you made a painting, just giving it away would be rewarding because you know that you've just made somebody else happy by something constructive that you did.

Yes, your kind of thinking is responsible for poverty, violence, corruption and everything else. Your forcing of ideology upon others, your thinking that everyone is just going to sit around and do thinks without being compensated. This is all propaganda until someone can name one innoviation where no one got paid. Just one. No one can, because it doesn't exist.

Greed is good, and it always has been. You can thank greed for the internet. You can thank greed for ATS. Do you think the owners of the site run it because they are feeling charitable?

The only people who will really freak out are those who stand to lose a lot of power and control.

for everyone else in a money-free society we stand to gain a lot.

reply to post by admriker444
I agree,with you admirker What the flim does is present an idea a way we can get outta this system and that I feel is was scares alot of people.

Originally posted by admriker444
The only people who will really freak out are those who stand to lose a lot of power and control.

for everyone else in a money-free society we stand to gain a lot.

Populist propaganda. You stand to lose all your technology and innovations. But you'll be happy, because you got to stick it to the rich!!

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
This is environmental communism reborn. Nothing less, nothing more.

Wrong. This is TECHNOCRACY. Unlike all previous social "solutions," this is one that removes the need for slaves. Through handing off the drudgery and tedium to robots and computers, we can eliminate the human slave (worker), while providing abundance for every human on this planet.

Never before in history has this been possible.

The Venus Project:

- Where everyone is free to do whatever they want, except have a religion because Z:A says that is evil. So your not really free - unless you agree with the Z:A ideology.

Oh, surely you would be free to have a religion, but what gums up the works is a DIVISIVE religion. One that says, effectively, "We WILL NOT get along with you unless you believe as we do.

If you want to believe in Zorg as God, but it's ok for your neighbor to believe that Glink is God, more power to you. (Kinda like the ancient Greeks... I worship Aphrodite, you worship Bacchus...)

- Where no one has to do anything, so its unclear who is going to fix the technology that makes everything free when it breaks (and technology always breaks)

A. Robots can fix robots.

B. Some people find their bliss in fixing things like robots and will do it just for the love of doing it.

- Where no one has a reason to be innovative, because you are given everything for free (so its not quite clear how we're going to get to such a high technology society in the first place).

So you think there will be no one looking for problems to solve? I can assure you that some of us find our bliss in finding problems and solving them. (Others find it in racing dirt bikes...)

- Where anarchy rules, because there is no law and no state. Z:A forgets that crimes of passion exist, and that money does not cause all crimes. Sometimes people do just kill other people without a money motivation. In Project Venus this is going to be allowed, since no police are going to be around to stop it from happening.

I think you will find that if a person in a monetary system, constrained my his or her particular income, frustrated by an inability to afford or find the time for their bliss, who snaps and becomes homicidal...will never go there because they're too busy following their bliss.

Proclaiming that money is the root of all evil is simpleton and populist. Nothing is innately wrong with money or profit, both have spurned innovation that would not have otherwise existed.

It is not money that is the root of all evil, darling. It is the LOVE OF money that is. It is what perpetuates the evil of Big Pharma not looking for cures, but looking for patentable compositions that also might cause further issues for which patentable compositions are a "solution..." And of course, that makes MONEY.

Take money out of that equation, and the people whose bliss is to research and find cures for things will be off and running, given that they have everything they need.

By the way, the most amusing part of these "documentaries" is they spend hours scaring you and telling you that money is fictional, and then turn around and tell you a evil shadowy cabal of corporate bankers wants nothing more than your money. Which they just claimed the bankers made up and know has no value. Inconsistent much?

Yes...and no. By taking the phantom back from you, you work as a slave. And you work more for less tangible gain. But you're a slave that is on his/her own.

Meanwhile, the banksters buy gold...

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Your response demonstrates the fallacies of this "documentary."

There is no proof or evidence that "greed" is holding back advances in technology. In fact, the proof is just the opposite: greed drives advances in technology.

Yes and no. Any tech that can be used to make more money is advanced. Any tech that can threaten profit is suppressed, like Royal Rife's work, the Joe Cell, Schauberger's stuff, cures for diseases, etc.

If there was a shadowy cabal of bankers attempting to keep us from advancing for profit, please tell me why we have computers, the internet, cell phones, or any of the other technological advances of the past 40 years?

Computers enhanced profit in many ways. I am sure you can see why, but if not, let me know and I will ennumerate a few. The internet initially was seen as harmless, and then VERY profitable (the Dotcom thing?), and now a frightening thing for its ability to spread information far and wide. Free speach and all that. (Why do you think net neutrality is being attacked overtly and covertly?)

The auto industry is a excellent example of why greed is good. I don't want any company pushing some electric car on me that I don't want. I'm not going to buy into environmental fascism to have people force me into what type of vehicle I choose to drive. I love my gas driving SUV and when it dies, I'll buy another one. If you want to drive a matchbox on wheels that's your choice and you can do so - don't force me to do it.

You really think fossil fuel is bad because of the ENVIRONMENT!?! Ah, geez. It's bad because it's been used as a revenue source, and has led to unnecessary wars and the deaths of hundreds of thousands - millions, I dare say. Go ahead and support the terrorists (Cheney, et al), but I would rather move away from them and the wars they push us into harder than the "environmental fascism" you claim is pushing you away from your fossil fuel car.

And I am not understanding why this makes greed "good." It seems fully nonsequitur. What has greed got to do with this?

The truth of the matter is Z:A is propaganda. There is no free energy solution, and if there was oil companies would jump at it - all of the methods Z:A talks about can still be owned and sold to consumers.

The truth of the matter is that there IS a free energy solution. Oil companies have no incentive to "jump at it." It makes their oil worthless! I am aghast that you actually typed that! I'm guessing, based on that, that you don't fully grasp the Universe you live in.

And, in fact, free energy is the solution to a free society. If our homes had a source of free energy, and our cars, we would be far less beholden to The System. Add robots to till our lands, harvest our food (clean it, prepare it, serve it), and we would lack for very little. We would not have to pay anyone to heat or cool the house, light the stove, run the washer and the dryer, and the toaster oven, and the lights and the TV and the electric carving knife. We could get from here to there without paying anyone for the energy to do so.

No, those who like the status quo are suppressing free energy, lest the slaves come up to the standard of living of the Elite, thereby making the Elite not Elite any longer.

Unfortunately none of them are viable alternatives: wind energy is a LULU item, solar panels are not efficient enough compared to traditional electric power, tidal current power is in its infancy,

What does it's infancy have to do with its viability? Numerous designs have been made and built even. Where's the issue?

and geothermal is extraordinarily expensive to operate.

And then there's Dark Energy...which the film did not mention, but which the Elites have had access to for quite a while.

Greed is good.

No. No it's not.

Its what drives innovation, and it is what has brought us all of our technological innovations today. There is a reason why you can't name one technological innovation that was created without someone making a profit of it: without that greedy urge to make a profit, no one would bother.

Necessity and desire drive innovation and invention. Not greed. And the reason that you can't name one technological innovation that was created without someone making a profit of it is because only those things that made a profit enough for anyone to take notice are the ones you hear about. But I'm betting there have been some that were suppressed (didn't make a profit) or had too specific an application (and didn't make a profit).

Greed is only something you find in a scarcity-driven model. If there was abundance for all, greed would not exist. But imagination, innovation and invention would flourish with time set free to think, contemplate, tinker, and so on.

The whole "you vs the elite" is a illusion drawn to make your life easier.

Either you are very naive or a disinfo agent. I'm suspecting the latter.

People want to believe in some evil elite group hell bent to control their lives because it makes it easy to explain their life circumstances and blame someone else when life doesn't go as they like it. Its fear mongering, and its not based in reality.

No. No I DON'T want to believe that. I have been forced into it by stark evidence. Most people hide from that stark evidence because they, too, DON'T want to believe that. But I face the evidence.

You, sir, likely have the job of trying to push our collective head back in the sand. This is book of spook rhetoric from start to finish.

All innovation has come because of our monetary system. None of it has come from the environmental communism pushed by Z:A.

Bee Period. Ess Period.ALL innovation has come from a need or desire. It is drawn into the monetary system because there is nowhere else it has to go. And again, Z:A is NOT Envirocommunism.

It is a TECHNOCRACY.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Wrong. This is TECHNOCRACY. Unlike all previous social "solutions," this is one that removes the need for slaves. Through handing off the drudgery and tedium to robots and computers, we can eliminate the human slave (worker), while providing abundance for every human on this planet.

Never before in history has this been possible.

You are WRONG. This is not technocracy - technocracy still requires someone be paid to do the innovating, and still involves free will. This is environmental communism.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Oh, surely you would be free to have a religion, but what gums up the works is a DIVISIVE religion. One that says, effectively, "We WILL NOT get along with you unless you believe as we do.

Right, in other words: you don't get to live in our society unless you agree with our ideology. Such freedom! Such liberty! Again, this is communism.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
A. Robots can fix robots.

B. Some people find their bliss in fixing things like robots and will do it just for the love of doing it.

Right. Uh-huh. Tell me one case right now of any technology that has no human intervention and robots are just fixing themselves in never-ending cycles. Just one. You won't find a single case. Because when something breaks, SOMEONE has to fix it. And no one is going to do it because they "love doing it" - they have no reason to. Everything is somehow mysteriously provided for them thanks to communism.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
So you think there will be no one looking for problems to solve? I can assure you that some of us find our bliss in finding problems and solving them. (Others find it in racing dirt bikes...)

Still waiting for one example where someone simply solved any major problem without profiting from it. No one does it because they enjoy it.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I think you will find that if a person in a monetary system, constrained my his or her particular income, frustrated by an inability to afford or find the time for their bliss, who snaps and becomes homicidal...will never go there because they're too busy following their bliss.

Wow..you've bought into the Z:A propganda whole sale! Again, crimes exist outside of money. They happen all the time. They are called crimes of passion. People who have everything, all the money in the world, kill each other because they get mad. What are you going to do? Who is going to stop crimes of passion? No one will be able to lawfully because there is no law. And society will devolve into anarchy.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
It is not money that is the root of all evil, darling. It is the LOVE OF money that is. It is what perpetuates the evil of Big Pharma not looking for cures, but looking for patentable compositions that also might cause further issues for which patentable compositions are a "solution..." And of course, that makes MONEY.

Dear, there is nothing wrong with love of money. People get upset because someone loves money more than they do, and has more than them. Its the hatred of those with more than you that is the root of all our current problems.

There has never been a case of "big pharma" not looking for cures because of money, in fact, they spend a lot of money looking for cures because they can charge astronomical amounts of money for it. Please do tell how it is that we have irradiated so many diseases if everyone is to busy trying to stop cures?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Take money out of that equation, and the people whose bliss is to research and find cures for things will be off and running, given that they have everything they need.

Take money out of the equation, and there will be no innovation. You cannot talk about "oh people will just do things because they get bliss out of it" and yet never provide a single case of this happening. There have been rich people who had so much money that money was never a concern for them - they had it all - and you can't name one of these people who did anything huge just to get bliss out of it. Its always been for a profit, and it always will be. No one is going to do anything when everything is handed to them through communism.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Yes...and no. By taking the phantom back from you, you work as a slave. And you work more for less tangible gain. But you're a slave that is on his/her own.

Still not answering the question. If its all pointless why are bankers doing this? Working so hard and so hell bent on amassing...something with no value? And no, bankers don't buy gold. Gold is as worthless as paper.

The amount that you've bought into the Z:A propaganda is amazing. Your so naive you go around screaming that anyone who disagrees is a "disinfo agent"

[edit on 7-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

The new zeitgeist movie?

Im there with you buddy, we should all just move to our own island and live on a resource based economy there, totally shut out the rest of the world.