Zeitgeist Addendum Released

Originally posted by Manawydan
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Amaterasu mate, this is completely of the subject, for that I apologize, but I just gotta tell you that whenever I start readin your posts after a little while your avatar turns into the mask of darth vader. So strange...

ROFL!

Seriously, that got me laughing like nothing has in months!

Sorry you wind up with that. Purely unintentional. I more had in mind an eye that was looking back, challengingly even, into the "Eye" of the Illuminati.

Guess where you're concerned, I failed, eh?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Matrix1111
The problem I have with the Zeitgeist movies is that it doesn't recognize the spiritual laws behind religion. It seems to reject spirituality and leans toward materialism.

You know when I watched this movie I didn't personally get the message that they were dismissing spiritual principle. Do you recall towards the end, when the guy had his two hands up forming a picture frame and he was following different scenes of nature while they discussed symbiosis and the connectedness of our existence with each other and the planet? What kind of spiritual principle do you believe in? Church doctrine specifically? I do think the movie was against mainstream Church.

I'm basing my assessment on both Zeitgeist movies. The first one thoroughly dismantles Christianity as myth. The theme is basically that religion is the "opium of the masses."

In principle I agree with the movies. A new paradigm is needed. It's just that a balance is needed. (Yin and yang.) Syncretism doesn't negate the underlying message of religion. God works in increments of advancement according to the level of intellect of a people. The problem with religion is that it just hasn't caught up with the advances made by science. That doesn't mean religion is irrelevant. The "body" without spirit is dead.

reply to post by Amaterasu


I made you laugh? Lovely, that means a lot to me Cheers.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
Not very realistic.

They do not account for human nature, they fail to understand just what a greedy, self serving beast man kind really is. People will always want more than the next man. People by nature will always seek power and control over others. There will always be evil in the world, and this is why communism has failed miserable over and over again.

[sigh] Why do people keep placing monetary paradigms on a non-monetary system?

How can one express "greed" in an environment where one can get and do anything one pleases?

How can one serve only oneself when no others (nor oneself) need serving? (Robots do all THAT stuff.)

How can one exert "power" over another when all others have nothing against which to apply leverage?

How can one want to control another - to what end - when one can take from the abundance whatever one wants?

People keep also comparing this concept to Communism. It is NOT Communism in that Communism presumes someone handing out all that is available and is based on a monetary system.

It is a TECHNOCRACY. One that "enslaves" machines instead of humans. Humans therefore are free to pursue their bliss.

reply to post by Matrix1111


I am still not entirely sure if I understand what your position is on distinguishing religion, church, and spiritual principle from each other.

It seems like you are still making the assertions the films are against spiritual principle entirely, whereas I think it's more the whole "Religion is the opium for the masses". Keep in mind when most use the term 'Religion' they are speaking of mainstream, and the Church, and not their underlining spirituality.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Ah, that explains your projection of fears into this. Take a breather, try to clear your mind of preconceptions, and then watch this again.

I watched the first hour of it. My comment that spirituality is being rejected is based on that hour and the first movie. Also on the known history of Utopian, social engineering flops. Ego is always the culprit. And as I see with the general pattern of your replies here and elsewhere, I'm hoping you're not a spokesperson for Venus Project.

Enough said until I do my background research. Btw, your lechery comment is very apropo. It's the root source of all evil. I doubt Fresco knows how to deal with this. Fact is, nobody does. That's why the social systems have never worked. (Greed, selfishness, lechery... it's the downfall of all civilizations.)

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Matrix1111

 

I am still not entirely sure if I understand what your position is on distinguishing religion, church, and spiritual principle from each other.

It seems like you are still making the assertions the films are against spiritual principle entirely, whereas I think it's more the whole "Religion is the opium for the masses". Keep in mind when most use the term 'Religion' they are speaking of mainstream, and the Church, and not their underlining spirituality.

Good point. I happen to already transcend "Church." And I was "raised" on Buckminister Fuller, so I know the technological possibilities are accurate. My criticisms are addressed toward the need to balance Science and Spirituality, not make it lopsided in favor of either side. And being "gung ho" about the Venus Project reminds me of the pitfalls of cults and cult leaders.

All I'm saying is more information provided about the Zeitgeist author would be a good thing. Until then, heathy skepticism is a good thing.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I think the primary reason it seems like a fantasy is merely because it is so fantastically different then our current system. People have become so apathetic to our current shape of reality, that anything different simply isn't real.

Yet we do have the tech and the resources to completely change the World! That is a fantasy. A great fantasy. A realistic fantasy.

It is fanatical because it is not anywhere close to being feasible. It would take a couple lifetimes before such a world would be even remotely possible. We do have lots of great technology out there that could do a lot more good, but not nearly the levels available to come close to the idea behind the venus project.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
And in a society that has all needs met, what kind of power is available?

There is always going to be someone in an administrative role. Someone will have to determine what 'needs' are provided. One may feel they need more than another to be happy. I think that the ideological world of the venus project is a nice idea, but it would take a shift far beyond simply the beliefs in which children are raised. If evolution were to weed out hate and jealousy naturally, then maybe, otherwise you would have to genetically reengineer humanity.

As for this "sci-fi" you speak of

The sci-fi talked about in the venus project also included a world where the needs of people were met. This is not capable in the world as it is at this moment. We do have the ability to work to that point, but it would take decades or longer without the hinderence of corporate greed.

One of the other big problems in this venus project is the concept that people will have to abandon religion in order for this to work. The narrator of the film claimed that the only thing that we should take from religion is the philosophy behind it. Anyone who studies philosophy will know that there can be philosophies that contradict one another. This goes beyond the confines of organized religion.

I do like the idea of a world where people don't have to work, but can persue there interests and expand there abilities. I liked that idea when I saw it on Star Trek as a kid. I don't think that the venus project offered anything new, other than to try to inject into the concept, socialist and anti-religous sentament.

Originally posted by Matrix1111

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Ah, that explains your projection of fears into this. Take a breather, try to clear your mind of preconceptions, and then watch this again.

I watched the first hour of it. My comment that spirituality is being rejected is based on that hour and the first movie. Also on the known history of Utopian, social engineering flops. Ego is always the culprit. And as I see with the general pattern of your replies here and elsewhere, I'm hoping you're not a spokesperson for Venus Project.

First, all "Utopian, social engineering flops" were at some level monetarily based, with some "leaders" (read: privileged). Any system that puts some in control - through resources, ideology, money or priesthood - has flaws that the removal of which would be a great boon.

The element that none had - none at all - was the removal of slavery. All past systems presumed that some, if not all, had to work (slave) to make the system function.

Today we are at a point where we can remove all slavery from the equation. This is a supremely significant development. The fact is that there are plenty of resources - and especially with an addition of energy from the plenum (some call it the vacuum) with our proven ability to transmute elements. Neither of these were mentioned in this film, but both are significant. We can easily provide for every citizen of this world.

Enough said until I do my background research. Btw, your lechery comment is very apropo. It's the root source of all evil. I doubt Fresco knows how to deal with this. Fact is, nobody does. That's why the social systems have never worked. (Greed, selfishness, lechery... it's the downfall of all civilizations.)

"Greed" is removed when everyone can have everything one wants or needs... Selfishness is meaningless when everyone can have everything one wants or needs...

As for lechery... When one has the opportunity to focus one's energy into one's bliss in this life, combined with a principle of love, such "vices" fall to the wayside.

I cannot say that people won't imagine lecherous things, but being aware of our oneness, raised in love and abundance, with the ability to pursue any interest one desires (not speaking sexually, but intellectually, physically, mentally), it will be very rare indeed that one chooses to harm another through force.

EDIT to add: Oh, and no... I am not connected with this project in any way. Found out about them watching this film. I am merely one who can put myself into the vision and see what I would become, as well as what others would become.

In fact, I (more or less) wrote a story about it a couple of years ago which you can read here:

www.frontsoft.com...

(I posted it here earlier, but offer it again...)

[edit on 10/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

sorry, just testing something

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Today we are at a point where we can remove all slavery from the equation. This is a supremely significant development. The fact is that there are plenty of resources - and especially with an addition of energy from the plenum (some call it the vacuum) with our proven ability to transmute elements. Neither of these were mentioned in this film, but both are significant. We can easily provide for every citizen of this world.

Agreed. Communism is just a form of slavery. Capitalism is just a form of feudalism. The potential for a utopian world exists through technology. But until the hearts and minds of man are lifted to new levels of "vibration," these technological ideals can't be implemented. That's what's kept the United Nations from being able to lift half the world population out of poverty. The leaders have to buy into it. The elites have to buy into it. But each faction has their religious or ideological beliefs that prevent them from agreeing to work together as one. This obstacle isn't addressed by Zeitgeist/Fresco. Again, it's about yin and yang, mind and body, religion and science.

"Greed" is removed when everyone can have everything one wants or needs... Selfishness is meaningless when everyone can have everything one wants or needs...

Greed is based on lack of heart. If a person doesn't have a big enough conscience/heart, they won't get with the program. They'll contrive ways to use the utopian system. The criminal mind will not just automatically change. New education will be needed. New spiritual understandings will be needed in order to break the cycle of the criminal, selfish mind. Again, Fresco doesn't address that -- as far as I've see in three hours of his presentations. Ascension doesn't just happen because we're all clothed and housed and feed... though it's a good beginning.

I cannot say that people won't imagine lecherous things, but being aware of our oneness, raised in love and abundance, with the ability to pursue any interest one desires (not speaking sexually, but intellectually, physically, mentally), it will be very rare indeed that one chooses to harm another through force.

It's not going to happen over night. Breaking down old paridigms ain't easy. Transforming infrastructures isn't going to happen even within one generation. Breaking old thought patterns requires lots of effort. Religion will have to be overhauled. Just not sure where Fresco stands on this. To me it's the backbone of the problem. (External reflects internal. Btw, Fresco's designs are very dated, sterile and cold. Very Star Wars looking. That's because he's working from the outside toward the internal. That's backwards. Fix the heart first, the everything else falls into place.)

As above, so below. The "battle" for the minds of man -- that's where the real revolution begins.

Originally posted by Wolf321

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I think the primary reason it seems like a fantasy is merely because it is so fantastically different then our current system. People have become so apathetic to our current shape of reality, that anything different simply isn't real.

Yet we do have the tech and the resources to completely change the World! That is a fantasy. A great fantasy. A realistic fantasy.

It is fanatical because it is not anywhere close to being feasible. It would take a couple lifetimes before such a world would be even remotely possible. We do have lots of great technology out there that could do a lot more good, but not nearly the levels available to come close to the idea behind the venus project.

A. Much of our tech is suppressed and/or hidden, because it threatens some moneyed interest (like free energy - energy from the plenum; Dark Energy - threatens oil interests).

B. We are about to infinitely explode tech-wise. The plot of the tech curve - the plotting of technological advances through history - is moving upward exponentially, and will hit a virtually infinite point in 2012.

Why would it not be FULLY possible to attain this vision is a few years?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
And in a society that has all needs met, what kind of power is available?

There is always going to be someone in an administrative role. Someone will have to determine what 'needs' are provided.

I envision a computer program handling that. Or someone whose bliss is handling such things (or both...). Demand will be the driving factor in determining the needs. I don't see an issue here. Especially if we develop a replicator, which I see as fully possible because:

A. We have the ability now to transmute one element to another, and I see this as something that could be expanded on (with an infinite tech explosion, that is something I expect), and;

B. Until that happens, it would not be hard to calculate basic needs and provide for them, and requisitions could be sent to computers that arrange for delivery of the requested item(s). Initiall we might have to wait some period of time, or go to an outlet much like a store except it stocks things that you can just take.

One may feel they need more than another to be happy.

First, why would they if they can have all they want and need? Second, if they're bliss is merely to have more than another, hell, they can take more. But I do not believe that in a world of abundance, anyone would even be thinking about "having more than" another. They would be too busy traveling the world, or playing a musical instrument, or playing with their children, or working on some problem that fascinates them, or going out to a club, or painting a picture, or playing a video game, or making a video game, or .....

I think that the ideological world of the venus project is a nice idea, but it would take a shift far beyond simply the beliefs in which children are raised. If evolution were to weed out hate and jealousy naturally, then maybe, otherwise you would have to genetically reengineer humanity.

But hate and jealousy and envy and greed are developed in a human who sees the world as a thing of scarcity. If you love to race dirt bikes, would you expend energy hating another if you could just go race dirt bikes anytime you wanted? Would you be jealous of another if you loved mountain climbing and could just go do that whenever you felt like it? Would you be envious of someone who had something if you could get one just like it yourself? Would you be greedy if you never felt you might "miss out" on something - that it would always be there for you to take as you want?

As for this "sci-fi" you speak of

The sci-fi talked about in the venus project also included a world where the needs of people were met. This is not capable in the world as it is at this moment. We do have the ability to work to that point, but it would take decades or longer without the hinderence of corporate greed.

Well, I disagree with you on the length of time, but if we "have the ability to work to that point," what stops you from enthusiastically doing so? Instead of lamenting the perceived barriers, support the idea. Pass it on to get more involved to make it happen all the quicker!

Work to remove ALL hindrance!

One of the other big problems in this venus project is the concept that people will have to abandon religion in order for this to work. The narrator of the film claimed that the only thing that we should take from religion is the philosophy behind it. Anyone who studies philosophy will know that there can be philosophies that contradict one another. This goes beyond the confines of organized religion.

Sure, there are differing philosophies, but as for majorly accepted religions, there is one prevailing concept - and you know what it is. I prefer it in the Asian format: Do not do unto others that which you would not have done to you. Do not hate them, as you would be not want to be hated. Do not leave them helpless, as you would not want to be left helpless. Do not beat up on them, as you would not want to beat up upon. Do not belittle their existence, as you would not want to be belittled in your existence.

I do like the idea of a world where people don't have to work, but can persue there interests and expand there abilities. I liked that idea when I saw it on Star Trek as a kid. I don't think that the venus project offered anything new, other than to try to inject into the concept, socialist and anti-religous sentament.

I disagree. I think the Venus Project points out that IT IS NOW POSSIBLE. And it is because of our level of tech that it is so. No, the vision is not new. But the idea that it is possible NOW is.

There is nothing "socialist" about it. And as long as people believe there is an "Us" and a "Them" amongst us humans, it will be a very difficult scene to enact (though likely still possible). And I think the religious thing is more of the Zeitgeist makers' view than of the Venus Project.

[edit on 10/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

[edit on 10/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

reply to post by praisehoruswatchzeitgeist


Sounds like a good idea though an illegal one since its a Federal crime to deface the US currency. Careful now especially since you've posted this here in public view.

Organize and get the word out in the media with free publicity. We need to come together in Washington in large numbers to get the message out. We need to organize in large numbers if we are to get noticed in the media. Email everyone you know the video, it will spread the world over in short order as the first Zeitgeist film has.

I dont fear the fed, plus what about the other places that put websites on money. I dont see the fed shutting them down. What about the kids that color in the eyes. I've seen lots of those. Not to mention the first dollar at all the restaurants that get signed. Sometimes you just have to stand up for something. I cant see anything more noble to stand up for.

The fed is going to do what they are going to do. Oh and about the publicity. If it should blow up in the media, they will probably call us a cult. Thats the easy way to deal with people who want to change the system. Let the very people we are trying to save, police us. Except this time the message itself confronts that exact thing.

I've never felt so strongly about anything in my life. Lets do something. Oh and if we all do it, there is no way they can punish all of us. The only way this is going to work is if a large enough group quits contributing to the system. What would the government do if everyone refused to mail in their income taxes. You cant lock up everyone. There is no one left. Just some food for thought. We have power too, the revolution is now. Join me and lets deface as much #ing money as we possibly can. spread the message

Originally posted by Matrix1111

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Today we are at a point where we can remove all slavery from the equation. This is a supremely significant development. The fact is that there are plenty of resources - and especially with an addition of energy from the plenum (some call it the vacuum) with our proven ability to transmute elements. Neither of these were mentioned in this film, but both are significant. We can easily provide for every citizen of this world.

Agreed. Communism is just a form of slavery. Capitalism is just a form of feudalism. The potential for a utopian world exists through technology. But until the hearts and minds of man are lifted to new levels of "vibration," these technological ideals can't be implemented.

Why...? I mean, why can't the tech be put to use providing for us? I suspect that by doing that, we will remove the more earthly focus and that will enable us to reach that "vibration" of which you speak. I think this is more cart-before-the-horse-ing. I think by putting the tech in place, the awareness will follow.

That's what's kept the United Nations from being able to lift half the world population out of poverty.

No... It is the fact that the world is on a debt-driven economy that the UN (whom I don't really believe are working in humanity's interest but in the interest of those who profit from the debt-driven economy) that the UN has been unable to do this. As long as humans are used for labor and profit (as slaves), there will be no Utopia. That is why the addition of advanced technology is the key addition to the equation.

The leaders have to buy into it. The elites have to buy into it.

Why...? What if we just get off the grid, don't support the keepers of the old system, promote robotics, and if we can feed ourselves off the grid, give away the excess we produce? As more and more do just that, I believe we can bypass any leaders and Elite.

But each faction has their religious or ideological beliefs that prevent them from agreeing to work together as one.

Wow. You just explained why religion is so counter to this solution - at least religion that is divisive. The "ideological" issues seem mostly to be a stick in the monetary system paradigm mud. Once one moves past that, and can envision it working, ideology will not be an issue.

I guess my point is that I do not understand the resistance some here have of this idea, given that it leads to ultimate personal satisfaction, while removing suppression of ideas and inventions, and such things as medicine will advance as no one once thought possible.

Medicine, by the way, would be an area that would see skyrocketing success. As it stands now, the Big Pharma companies do not look for cures. They look for patentable medicines that, hopefully, make one need other patentable medicines. All so that they can...

Make MONEY.

[edit on 10/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

The Movie was absolutely revalutionary for me. I have seen the first one, and that changed some of my thoughts, but this one just put in the last piece of the puzzle for me. I have seen many of my family members, even men, cry, due to the issue that we grow up, we find a job, and work for the rest of our lives, just to survive. I believe that we all inherit this world for free regardless of race/religion, and that we should not be trapped into this reality that has us all competing agaisnt each other to get the better job. I really hope that one day, our childrens children can look back and not even be able to comprehend what we went through. Thank you so much for posting this video on ATS.

One thing that I must add, ET/Aliens are not going to come here and intervene with our Civilizations progress. You see, its like someone growing up, he must receive help here and there, but one day, he must be able to go through something by himself. This is what we must do... I just hope that we CAN do this, otherwise, it will lead us to destruction.

Thank you again, Starred and Flagged.

I enjoyed the film. I equivocate it to those that dismiss utilizing oil alternatives and failed economic policies to those that were told the earth wasn't flat when I see people downing this movie. Seems some things don't change much in the last couple of hundred years. Some people will never be convinced. And it seems the PTB have a nice foothold in ATS creating negative discussions over something that should be a positive thinking moment. They don't want to see their way of life changed.

Some of us understand what was said in this film. And I will be passing it along to everyone I can, and tell them to make up their own minds.

oh a new one?? awesome, can't wait to see it. watch it after work.
Thanks for the link~

reply to post by Trams


Very well put, Trams. I couldn't agree more. We have to find our own strength, and our own path. That is going to become more and more relevant to the discussion as our technology brings us new ways to influence our own evolution.

On a more general note back to the discussion at hand, the system we're dealing with really has not been around all that long in relation to the historical timeline of humanity. It's certainly taken some deep roots, and it's obviously very tenacious, but it's young. It would be foolish to assume that it would last forever as so many others have come and gone. I always thought it was strange that everyone accepted "Free Market Capitalism" and "Democracy" as some sort of idea that was sacred and couldn't be questioned, even to the point of exploring new options as they become available being seen as a threat. Even in threads like this one, I've seen people worrying about becoming drones or losing freedoms. There's no reason why that should have to be the case if we design the system to include freedom. Systems of government and economics don't "happen" like a car accident to a society (sometimes they might I suppose), they're created and designed with intention (see the original U.S. Constitution at the risk of being U.S. centric).

Frankly, I think it's not only a good idea to keep examining new ideas for societal change and growth as our technology progresses, it's essential. Even if this idea brought about by the Venus Project isn't perfect, it at least gives us other ideas to consider for the future. There are definitely some ideas that most people almost always seem to agree on. Just ask people what they would like for their children and grand children. Often the answers you'll get back are freedom to live how they wish, a clean environment, a better world than we had, etc.

Might be a bit disjointed, I apologize. My mind doesn't always correctly communicate ideas in writing as coherently as they're connected in my head.

Monetary Equations
1. Percentage of Dollar Devaluation / Age of the Federal Reserve
In 2007, 96/94. In 2010, 100/97. So by 2010 our dollar will be worth 0.
2. Bailout by the government x 9. The $700,000,000,000 bailout will inflate to $4,900,000,000,000.
3. As of now 4% of the U.S. population controls 95+% of the U.S. wealth. By the time 2010 comes along 100% of the wealth will be controlled by the 4% and the rest of the 96% of the population will have no money.