Artifact from Atlantis?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Harte


Ohh...

Spiritual synchronicities, eh?

Well, then, that's different!

Harte

Its alright that the vulgus is unaware of the acromatic.

Vulgus I am, but acromatic must be a mispelling.

Either that or you're Romanian.

Harte

Yes indeed. Missed an "a" in the word.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I am certainly no expert but the designs look identical to those found in Mayan sites, or Aztec. The square designs with the concentric circles in them expecially. Very interesting regardless. Thanks.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Does the base and the top seperate? I have a problem with this simply because the base and the top are form 2 different era's. With the base appearing to contain older pictorials than the top. The top has more recent ie. the fluer de lis at the base of the pictoria on top. Where as the base has a form of later myan/ inca writings but with a roman god of the sea added to the base? A latter addition also? there is also what appears to be handles to attach it to a wall or perhaps another aparatus/ statue etc.....very puzzling to me at this point.
Also as a side note do NOT have it cleaned yet, it already shows evidence of either being cleaned wrong or had a fake patina added.if anything take it to a professional and have it xrayed. Any patina that would be removed in the cleaning process can also at the same time take away any fine line's on the object. An xray of the object from different views that can be studied under magnification may lead to a more precise explanation. Will see if I can find my files on Mexico and Amazon temples, Dont hold your breath though I have had to move 3 times since I made them and that was almost 18 years ago

First of all, I previously collected US and world coins for many years. I know the difference between copper, bronze, and brass. Based on that, your object is definitely brass. It's the same color as a brass doorknob, not the same color as a bronze US penny. Having said that, I saw some photos posted here of supposedly very ancient artifacts which were called "bronze," but the color is what I would call brass. Who knows?

I used to look at a lot of old copper artifacts on eBay. I just did a search on eBay for: Chinese brass ancient.

Here are some of what I found:

eBay - "Chinese ancient brass copper lock"
cgi.ebay.com... 5%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Notice square patterns on edge of lock. They show the same square spiral pattern as your object.

eBay - "Ancient Chinese brass copper lock key turtle"
cgi.ebay.com... C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Notice square patterns on edge of lock. They show the same square spiral pattern as your object.

eBay - "Fancy chinese brass ancient lion doorbell"
cgi.ebay.com...
The roundish depiction on your object may be a crudely-made lion's head. The wavy lines extending sideward are it's mane. The lions head on this doorbell on this eBay item is more detailed and obvious.

Bear in mind that these objects for sale on eBay are almost certainly modern-day fakes.

Your object is unusual to me in that the metal work is very crude by Chinese standards. The fact that it seems to be made of brass seemingly contradicts the crudeness of the metal work. I would have actually expected the object to be copper. To back up a bit. Copper is the "oldest" metal of copper/bronze/brass. It is composed of a single chemical element Cu. Bronze and brass have other metals added to them to make them resistant to corrosion. The making of bronze and brass is therefore a more sophisticated procedure.

I would recommend that you send the photos to someone who specializes in ancient Chinese metal-work. I'm not saying that your object is Chinese, but that would be a good starting point. As I already said, most of the sellers on eBay are selling contemporary fake Chinese metal-work, so I don't know whether they are a good place to start. Also, I believe these people know how to corrode metals in order to make the object look old.

You might want to consider the possibility that this is a contemporary object sold at Wal Mart or a "patio shop." In this case, the designs, and the entire appearance of the object were intentionally done crudely to make it look old. It may have then been accidentally "lost at sea," then someone fished it out. The sea water corroded the otherwise difficult-to-corrode brass, making the object look really old.

I agree with some previous posters that the uppermost, large inage is a flame. The "lion's head" could be a lion, bull, dog, or dragon; all four of those occur on Chinese metalwork. A dragon in clouds is a common Tibetan motif, but the head on your object doesn't seem to resemble the Tibetan coins I have seen.

I do believe it is a holder for a torch or candle.

OK, to add my speculation to the rest:

My first thought, given the mess of styles; qausi-byzantine, quasi-oriential, quasi-south american and the some of poor quality of the workmanship, is that it's a late 19th century Victorian decorative piece.

I'm probably wrong though - could be 1980s Chinese factory made for all I know.

What news do you have about it Skyfloating?
anything new from the experts?
hopefully one day we will know...

I just spoke with my friend Jim Allen who's the archeologist that discovered Atlantis in the Andes and got his professional opinion on these artifacts:

Very interesting photos. I would say the artifacts have an Arab or Moorish influence, not surprising if you consider they ruled Spain until being ejected sometime around 1492….. So could have been brought over aboard a Spanish ship or any other nationality from north Africa, who knows, maybe even Carthage or as you say, the Atlanteans!

If you're not familiar with Jim Allen's work, click here:
www.realatlantis.com...

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


yes i was thinking the same thign about the crudeness of it. it just doesn't seem to have the same finesse and the patina almost looks someone took a sponge and dabbed it on in some places. could be wrong, but it certainly doesn't have that ...i don't know...ambiance of chinese pieces.

it looks as if the back ground would be aztec but enkin and other civlizations come to mind when i see it. for it t be under there what 10,000 years it would have to be metal incripted with some kind of waterproff material. though it looks as though it ws painted green? that might be the waterproff material. by the looks of it i would say i might be a hlder of some sort. ive done enogh resurch on aztech and enkin life thou it miht have been droped of by explores though that is still contempted to me. im in school and this is verry puzzlein to me but as far as i can tell it is some sort of holster or holder of some kind. lol g2g bye

reply to post by skeptic1


salt water dosent age it as mich as fresh water would so it woud look to be older if in fresh water.

Dear Artifact Owner: If you are still reading this thread, I wouldnt mind an email with a few answers posed by the people here.

The thing is clearly something, but what can be determined for certain? Greek swirls, a Chinese face, an ancient winged god, and the flamestands can be traced right on to the drawings of that mayan god's space ship. Its got me stumped. Land bridges and a big party? The design may be some sort of riddle.
Has the owner responded yet?

It is likely from china and produced in the late 1800's. The inscription though not clear appear to be in a script used in the Weeger region of china. The area is composed of nomads with a shared Muslim and Chinese tradition. It is definitely not Mesoamerican in origin. I would focus my attention in that direction based on the style of the characters and the motifs on the vessel.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by IndianaJoe]

certainly an interesting artifact.

I agree it may well be upside down.

I believe the image at the base/top is indeed a lions head, I dont think the "mane" as its described behind it is a mane but a crude representation of a Greek Lion-Gryphon(Alexander 336–323BC) seen from the front with wings behind. This would fit with the Greek key patterns. The greeks would often use a lion headed gryphon to oppose the eastern Persian eagle headed gryphon.

The other symbology, when the right side up, appears to me to represent the Athenians(Bull Figure)(520BC), the second is the Attic Lion Symbol(Stylized)(540BC), and the third looks to be the Egyptian hieroglyph "ieb" or heart.

So where did all the experts go on this? Is it the smoking gun? The recent 10,000 year old temple in turkey, give light to the tool making precision at that time.

Any experts come up with credible evidence? It is there in plain sight. There isn't a single expert that can place an origin.

Is this thing the smoking gun?

reply to post by Skyfloating


I am currently a history major though I have previously taken a course in archeology. This is a very interesting piece. You might have a good case for this being an Atlantean artifact. The ancient Maya and Aztec Civilizations had a very limited knowledge of metalworking and certainly couldn't have created something this intricate. It doesn't look like any Native Mesoamerican script I've ever seen and I certainly don't believe it came from Spain or anywhere else in Europe. It has a very unique artistic flavor to it and almost looks Chinese or perhaps Persian. In his dialogues Plato placed Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean making its location consistent with your theory. The only thing is that if it has really been under the water for 10,000 years it would be considerably more corroded if not completly deteriorated. On the other hand the Atlanteans were supposedly highly advanced and capable of creating things that could withstand the test of time. This could even be made of orichalum a metalloid that Plato described as unique to Atlantis and second in value only to gold. I'd even buy it if I could find out who owns it.

reply to post by mightymouth


Jim Allen has NOT AT ALL Found Atlantis, But has provided a Hypothesis for the Location of Atlantis.

Of what i have seen of the object, it appears to be a chinese fake!