Artifact from Atlantis?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
[

"omg it's atlantis!" really, people...

Omg! Omg! What a stretch! Unimaginable! Unfathomable!


...not.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Say what?

It's not a stretch of the imagination to attribute this undocumented, unverified piece of brass to a mythological civilization that may have lived somewhere in the general vicinity of anywhere at some time or another, which we know nothing about except that they apparently got kicked around by the Athenian city-state in an allegorical debate about "The Republic"?

Really, you've gotta provide proof of Atlantis before you can point at random objects and go "it's from Atlantis!" Given that even the "experts" on Atlantis have nothing resembling a consensus on anything pertaining to Atlantis, I think you've got a mighty big first step there before you can start climbing the rest of the crystal annunaki pyramid

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


No, actually its not a stretch of imagination. Its quite simple to imagine in fact. Unless of course pre-conceived notions about history limit that imagination to the most narrow of views.

The main question of this thread and what it has developed to has been "What is this?" with experts of all kinds giving their opinion and evidence. Lets not turn this into yet another "Did Atlantis exist?" thread. Thanks.

Well, okay, it's not hard to "imagine". Hell, why not go for broke and imagine it's a martian spaceship?

Compile what we know about it's origins.

It's coming to you from an anonymous source
There's no documentation other than what he tells you
He's telling you it came from The Museum of Kansas City (which one?) through a friend of a friend who worked there
Said friend of a friend says it was found off the coast of Florida a century ago.

What part of florida? What was the exact year? How deep was the water? What other artifacts were there?

The fact that your source admits not having a singular clue what this is or where it comes from kind of renders everything on all the pages of this thread, pointless speculation and wishful thinking.

Due to that we have to assume the simplest solution is probably the best. That is, this is probably nothing more than a decorative piece from the very recent past, possibly European or Chinese origin, shipped to the US for sale during the period around the turn of this century.

A better debate would be what it is - if there is indeed a carbon crust on the inner lip, then my guess would be that it's an oil lamp. Hell, could be looking at something that fell off a whaling boat.

This thread was a brilliant example of debate, collective research and an interesting topic until walkingfox came in.

Get out and take your dogma with you.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
This thread was a brilliant example of debate, collective research and an interesting topic until walkingfox came in.

Get out and take your dogma with you.

Well, to sink to your juvenile level, make me.

I believe I am permitted to express my own thoughts and opinions over this piece as well as criticisms of others' thoughts and opinions of it. Now if you can point out to me how this cannot possibly be a 19th-century oil lamp, I would love to hear it.

Originally posted by Illahee

i've seen something exactly like this somewhere before. not the vase but that
motif. what the heck ...where was it....

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


i agree that atlantis is a hard thing to prove, however, there's alot of ancient structures on the ocean floor. you can see many of them in satellite photographs and some of them are not commonly known sites. we, the public, know less about the ocean floor than we do the moon.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I love to see the pseudo experts and the real experts squirm. If you think you are that good, then you will be able to come up with a similar object that has already been identified. Its that simple, or admit you know nothing of it like everyone else.

Opinions are like.... To prove expertise one must in fact prove it. Not dance around what they have no knowledge of. Sky has brought something forward to be disproven. There is no speculation. No whining to hear yourself preach. The object exists. Find out something about it and disprove the speculation.

One gains far more respect when they help solve a mystery. That is expertise.

Originally posted by undo
i agree that atlantis is a hard thing to prove, however, there's a lot of ancient structures on the ocean floor. you can see many of them in satellite photographs and some of them are not commonly known sites. we, the public, know less about the ocean floor than we do the moon.

Pretty much impossible to prove without a time machine. But remember, every single thing we think we know about the past is speculation from piecing the bits and pieces together.

Just like my speculation that most of the Egyptian carvings are second run, or a first round on stones that were already there but blank. The experts point to dating the surface of the carving. If its the second carving work it still dates just fine, even though much different surfaces may have existed before the Egyptians carved theirs. They point to 'worker camps' but look around you, the burbs are everywhere now just like then.

I can see this one burning 300 pages and never be solved.

I must say, i am yet nor 100%sure about if the artifact is upside down or not, even after the official explanation...
After analise the "Brazier" explanation, IMHO, the person still can be doing a wrong racionalization about the possible use of the artifact.
Some one have sayed before in this topic, it could be a kind of Bell, i start to belive that. Not a bell to putt on a temple roof, or hanging, but a "temple Hand bell"!
I belive this moustly because i do not belive in coicidences... and "something" that when "upside down" looks like a perfect Bull head...canot be a coicidence!
If this is the case,and it is a very commun thing to see in many type of bells from several diferent coltures, the artifact in the foto it will be in it's "rest position" (Upside down), but when in use, some one will grab it in the right position, to play it.
Also if it have vestige of carbonization or carbon in it, it is not very clear for nothing absolute also, because if it was used in a temple...for exemple, with the use, in some years, it will have carbon particles due the normal use of fire, candles,torches, incense, ect, that was normal in any temple.
The Carbon could also result from a fire in the sunked ship where the artifact was transported!In fact it was very possible that the ship was atacked by some kind of sea riders, or pirates, and have sunked exactly because of a major fire.
Althou, i think i will not get nothing for sure in the internet, i have tryed so many searches...i will try my public library here, in my spare time, and consult some exelent art books to see if i find a similar object. It must exist more of them some where!!

I hope you can understend me, extremly hard to me to try to write in english, sorry for that.


[edit on 28/9/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

reply to post by Umbra Sideralis


I understand what you´re saying. Thats true out-of-the-box thinking. I wouldnt have seen it as a bell before reading your post

I forget to say, following my last hipotesis, if the artifact was exposed to a fire, it is also possible that some other important parts of it was missing... like parts made of wood or Hide(animal fur), what will difficult even more to recognize it's porpose for trivial use. Maybe we are just looking for it's "Hard skeleton".

Just imagine we have a room tea table where the extruture is in brass, but the table inself is in wood...after a fire all we will see it's just the brass part...
Depending of the work and details on that part, could be very difficult to us to understend that was a table in first place..lol...weird i know,,but very possible. (carefull, this is a exemple, im not saying the artifact is a tea table)



[edit on 28/9/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

Some Atlantis-News not published yet:

Underwater Stone Platform, Andros Island (Bahamas)

(PDF)

______________________


Umbra: Understood



[edit on 28-9-2008 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Aargh! A .pdf, please warn before posting, i have fast internet and computor, but PDF'S are really slow to load.

Originally posted by 19 Killer
The uppermost ideogram is an Egyptian hieroglyph representing a reed shelter in the fields. If used together with the hieroglyph for house, and other hieroglyphs, it could stand for room, i.e. a walled enclosure within a house.

Howdy 19... I think you may have gotten that info from a site that doesn't do many hieroglyphic translations.

Try this one instead:
hieroglyphs.net...

The Internet resources aren't that great... there are some wonderful books.

This myth, as the rows of ram sculptures in the Egypt temple in Karnak, Egypt, show, is probably a reference to the cult of the Ram marking the beginning of the Aries era around 2350 B.C. See the section "The symbolism of the astrological ages" in the Appendices for data about these eras.

The hieroglyphic texts show that the rams represent the god Amun. He's one of the oldest gods in Egypt -- and eventually became one of the supreme gods. He's also shown as a ram-headed man.

www.touregypt.net...

Alright . . . I signed up for this site just to post in this thread . . . can already see I'm going to waste a lot of time on these forums!

Two issues I have with the back story . . .

If the owner doesn't know what it is or where it came from . . . how does s/he know it's not upside down? Once fliped, as posters have done with the photos . . . the center image CLEARY is a Chinese "Foo Dog" or Tiger, the other images then clearly become a bull (or something similar), meso-type profiles, and a vagina or an orchid . . . the other way the eye perceives untranslatable images. I don't see how that could be coincidence.

Also . . . if it had been under water for years. How is s/he sure that the black in the "torch holder" part is oxidation and burned material and not black patina or some other bio-material?

If s/he knows these things . . . s/he knows what it is and what the uses are and this is a hoax to drive speculation about crypto-civilizations.

If s/he doesn't know these things, it's rather reckless to dismiss suggestions to such. If, in fact, they are really trying to figure out where this came from.

The predominant design is Chinese, but the mixed sybology of the three large designs and the general feeling that it's fake, lead me to believe it's a relatively modern deco piece and not worth the materials it's made out of.

Also, if the owner was so intent on solving the mystery . . . a short trek to the local unversity's metallurgy dept. and they could do an analysis of the composition and patina.

seems they'd rather keep the mystery and not find the answers . . . further reason to believe it's nothing more than a conversation starter. For those wondering why they think it's not real . . . but, can't put their finger on it . . . read Malcom Gladwell's blink. The mind knows even when science may be stumped!!!!

[edit on 28-9-2008 by solomons path]

[edit on 28-9-2008 by solomons path]

Originally posted by Illahee
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

I love to see the pseudo experts and the real experts squirm. If you think you are that good, then you will be able to come up with a similar object that has already been identified. Its that simple, or admit you know nothing of it like everyone else.

Opinions are like.... To prove expertise one must in fact prove it. Not dance around what they have no knowledge of. Sky has brought something forward to be disproven. There is no speculation. No whining to hear yourself preach. The object exists. Find out something about it and disprove the speculation.

One gains far more respect when they help solve a mystery. That is expertise.

Oh, I've already noted that I know little about it. In fact the lack of knowledge we all share is what makes me critical, at least of the claim that it's Atlantean in origin.

Think for a second. if it were from Atlantis... How would we be able to say? We have no other Atlantean artifacts to compare it to. We have no context to put the item in. We don't even have a date or location of excavation, much less the actual name of the museum or even the "former employee" that took it with him (that right there should be a clue that the story is bunk - closing museums don't pass out artifacts to employees).

Even if we were looking at something from Atlantis, there is absolutely zero way we would know.

Thus rather than fifteen pages of people each trying to make up an ever-increasingly exotic origin for this thing, I think it would be best to start simple and work our way forward with what evidence we have.

The most bare-bones simple idea is that this is a decorative piece made within the last decade or so, deliberately antiqued, and sold at a home depot or something. Going with what we know (that is, that it's made of brass and exists, not much) it's not a terribly "out there" place to start.


Looks neat and old, doesn't it? It's not. It's made to order.

Now, if Skyfloating had the object in his hands rather than relying on a relay, we would likely be able to get more information. Myself, I would like some picture of the other side of the piece, as well as inside the body and the bottom bell of it as well.

The design, to me, does look very modern, as Stikkinikki pointed out the lines of it are very art nouveau. It's clearly an abstract.

reply to post by solomons path


Actually the owner assures me its been taken to experts/universities by the mom. The very reason its posted here as a mystery is because these couldnt determine anything conclusive....not even the origin and value.

I agree that the owner should do a re-check with experts though, also considering new questions brought up.

As for it being upside down: Maybe it is. Or maybe the object is not upside down, only the picture is. Or maybe the picture is not and its something else. Who knows.

reply to post by Skyfloating



Interesting story on that PDF! Thx for posting!

Still waiting on a reaction from Mr. Polak. So I'll be back on that.

Got a ' funny' reaction of someone who told me it's prob. a movie prop


Idea (since the Atlantic Ocean / Atlantis are being mentioned) :

On October 9-12, 2008 there will be a Conference ( Annual Ancient Mysteries Conference) A.R.E. Conferences in Virginia Beach, Virginia

www.edgarcayce.org...

Maybe the owner cud take the object itself or the pix to show it to some of the speakers there. One of them is Dr. Michael Faught (Renowned underwater archeologist who reveals new discoveries of submerged sites around the hemisphere that fly in the face of mainstream theorizing about how the continents were peopled)
Dr. Lora Little will also speak ther, she's cutting-edge researcher, author and speaker, shares fascinating news and images of the recent search for Atlantis, including intriguing newly discovered underwater formations.

List of the speakers:
www.edgarcayce.org...