Artifact from Atlantis?

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

I have to say, reading through the entire thread and listening to all the different opinions and thoughts.


i think this answer is probably the most on track...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Although I'm waiting to see what happens....

[edit on 25/9/08 by blupblup]

I thought that was a good possibility, but to think that our ancestors used to do that is sickening to say the least. I was thinking Minoan's, although many early civilisations used to worship the bull.

looks more like a human nose, with eyes above it. when it is the right way up.

it also looks like a penis

Originally posted by banyan

especially since the owner claims it a torch, it definitely brings the spiritual more into the scene. why else would an ornate torch be made unless for a temple or for ritual?

Interesting. Yes it would be for a temple or ritual, wouldnt it?

Originally posted by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
I thought that was a good possibility, but to think that our ancestors used to do that is sickening to say the least. I was thinking Minoan's, although many early civilisations used to worship the bull.

The Bull features prominently atlantis-related literature as well, come to think of it.

[edit on 25-9-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by seagrass
More Chinese Ming for your viewing pleasure...notice the spiral design eh?

yes, noticed and noted. Help me out...which time-frame might that vase be from?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I got an answer from the owner regarding the material.

He says the metal is unknown and at first glance seems to be a fine brass. He says its very hard material and most likely not brass or the sweat fittings would not hold up under the extreme heat of the fire and swell and come apart.

It's bronze and it's from Indonesia. The "horned animals" are actually the Indonesian dragon and the flame is a Buddhist symbol. The "keystone" pattern is rather typical.

Indonesian dragons are often shown in a stylistic representation with curved mouths (like this modern example) : www.painfulpleasures.com...

And here...
flickr.com...

Lovely piece, probably dating back 200 years or so. Some of the more prized bronze antiquities come from this area.

You can see the keystone pattern on the background of this "dragon and phoenix" vase (modern vase)
www.jade-market-hong-kong.com...


In more recent times, the spread of Chinese art and culture has impacted the design of these images -- those are the ones you see most often. Some of the traditional artists still make the old curved mouth dragons.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by seagrass
More Chinese Ming for your viewing pleasure...notice the spiral design eh?

yes, noticed and noted. Help me out...which time-frame might that vase be from?

"Ming" refers to the Chinese dynasty and a dynastic period. A quick trip to Wikipedia and other sites show that it runs from the mid 1300's to the mid 1600's
en.wikipedia.org...

Shang dynasty. bull?

Very interesting Byrd. Thanks.

Now we have Indonesia added to the mix. The more expert opinions coming in, the more countries.

But many in this thread do agree it looks Asian.

The Ming Dynasty lasted from 1368 to 1644.

Whoops....got beat to it.

[edit on 9/25/2008 by skeptic1]

Oh... there isn't any writing on it. There's some nice cloud motifs, but no writing (at least in the photos you took.)

Originally posted by Byrd
Oh... there isn't any writing on it. There's some nice cloud motifs, but no writing (at least in the photos you took.)

yep...we established that there is no writing in this marathon of a thread.

The pictures have been sent to various experts and semi-experts and we´ve received varying Feedback.

Ok, with Indonesian added to the mix, I forwarded my earlier e-mail to yet another specialist in Southeast Asian art.

Hopefully, I will hear back from some, if not all, of the folks I am bombarding with e-mails tomorrow.

I've sent it to people specializing in Ming Dynasty bronzes and metalwork, Chinese art, Middle Eastern art, and Asian art. Hopefully, they don't take Fridays off.....

Bryd your link to the rental vase mentioned the Shang Dynasty underneath it.



wiki

Originally posted by Skyfloating


The Bull features prominently atlantis-related literature as well, come to think of it.

[edit on 25-9-2008 by Skyfloating]

Yes, there is a lot of 'bull' in Atlantis-related literature!

With the 'owner' saying that it is a torch of some sort implies that the owner knows something about it. Is it possible to get some pics of the inside of the 'top' and 'base'?

reply to post by Byrd

Well that last link pretty much seals the deal.

Indonesian would make sense style wise.

That would explain the psuedo chinese style elements.

And the spanish traded quite a bit with the people of southeast asia through the philipines, more so than with the chinese directly.
It for sure came off of a spanish wreck.

Some people have a hard time believing that the spanish moved tremendous amounts of goods from their pacific and new world empire, through the carribean.
And a huge amount of that loot never made it to spain and was lost at sea.
You know when french and spanish settlers reached the gulf coast of texas/louisiana area in the early 18th century guess what they found,
phillipinos


yep there were several small communitites of phillipinos, sailors who had survived being ship wrecked and set up their own communities, in this area that was like home.


Im might be going to the bay area this weekend if so I am going to stop at the extensive asian bronze collection at one of the museums(cant remember its name) but the collection is fabulous.



[edit on 25-9-2008 by punkinworks]

How does anyone knows, that it isn't Atlantean? It was put in the basement and mark unknow. You should be looking for who made that shape of vase. But I don't think it is a vase in the first place. It most likely a holder. They came in different sizes, from small to large. The small one's, were use to hold candle like oil lamp, and the large one's, were use to hold plants in them. Like a small tree. The large one's were put in the family gathering room, the court yard, bath area, in the throne room and hallways. The small ones were in all those area and other area, like the bedroom.

reply to post by kyanther

Admittedly I thought the same thing upon first glance. I've been reading about goddess cults within the last six months so it could have been in my mind.

Originally posted by seagrass
Shang dynasty. bull?

Nope. Dragon. The bull actually wasn't used as one of their symbols. The ox was, yes, but not the bull.

Ox was not a common motif for decorations. It was used in astrological charts and was painted in pastoral scenes. Birds (phoenix) and dragons and mythical animals like the Kirin were fairly common (yes, I know Kirin is Japanese....)

[edited to add]

These were fairly expensive pieces and the society of that area consisted of the uber-rich and the very poor with almost no one in the middle of society. The uber-rich were generally rulers/kings/princes and they wanted the greatest of the legendary symbols on their lacquerware/armor/dinnerware/clothing/etc, etc. You'd get clan symbols and then important figures to which there was a lot of "luck" attached.

So you get the 9 Immortals and dragons and phoenix. Kirin are there (no hawks) -- domestic animals are shown in context (horses are generally shown as things that people ride on and not as a prancing symbol.) After Buddhism moved in, you got the various multi-armed deities.

In items that warriors and clans owned you might get some carvings (such as netsuke) where popular mythic characters or things of interest were created such as monkeys and dogs and some of the Immortals. More recently you find cats as luck bringers being carved.

(...really... I'll shut up now....honest...)

[edit on 26-9-2008 by Byrd]